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View Poll Results: Whats your pick?
European Cars 211 43.78%
Japanese Cars 219 45.44%
Others (Indian, Korean, American etc.) 22 4.56%
Prefer both equally 30 6.22%
Voters: 482. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 14th May 2014, 09:46   #211
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Default Re: Japanese or European cars? Whats your pick in India?

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Originally Posted by IshaanIan View Post

While Honda is doing some shameful acts here in our country, you do know that of the bunch, you are actually safest when sitting in your 3rd Gen Honda City right? The Premier Padmini may have been built of Birla Shakti Cement, but the minute you collided with anything it would transfer all impact energy to your body, and the Chevy Optra, was actually a Korean car (Daewoo) and of very old heritage. It has scored extremely poorly in crash tests across the Globe.

In recent ASEAN NCAP test, the City scored 4 stars.
Ishaan, I have had my share of collisions with Premier Padmini (major collision during childhood in August 1993) and the Optra (Collided with a hatchback on NH8 in June 2013). And I honestly swear to my soul that no matter what the ratings say these 2 cars are pretty safe in my opinion. I consider Optra as a tank. However, even if I compare my Honda and Esteem, then Esteem stands out far far better than this Japanese crap called City Ivtec.

As an owner, The worst car till date I have owned is Ivtec Honda City. No matter whether it has 2 airbags, this car is a crap in terms of structural strength. It could be 3rd gen Honda city but for me it is the 3rd class Honda City. It only speaks of looks and speed nothing else.

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Old 14th May 2014, 10:02   #212
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I was trying to bring out the same point/view about the "built like tank" quality that CrazyDriver has mentioned. It is not only about safety but also about the build quality in terms of dents due to minor mishaps, children playing etc.

I too remember a classic example like CrazyDriver mentioned. I remember when I owned the Opel Astra I used to sit on its boot and bonnet, by the way I used to weigh almost 90kgs then, I didn't see the sheet metal denting or even bending. Same was the case when children used to play cricket and football and ride cycles inside our building compound, the Opel had no dents, dots, whatsoever even after facing so much of abuse. The same cannot be said about my Mitsubishi Lancer though it has picked up numerous small dents, dots from children, mango fruit falling from the tree(there is a mango tree in my compound), dog sitting on the roof, etc. I have heard first generation Lancers in India were better built than the later ones.

But again there are some Japanese vehicles which have a really good and solid build quality one of them is the Mitsubishi Pajero, which I have sat into and also driven. Both the older Mitsubishi Pajero and the SFX Pajero(that was assembled in India) have superb build quality and the materials used are top notch and can be compared to the European offerings. Same goes with the Mitsubishi Outlander the quality of materials used are top notch and long lasting. I want to conclude by saying there are some Japanese cars which feel solid and drive equally well, but there is something like an X factor about a European car that catches attention. Again I repeat to each his own, but for me I prefer both it's like what others have mentioned. You will find me in a Japanese car throughout the week and a European car during the weekend.
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Old 14th May 2014, 10:45   #213
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Also, if you consider the Indian Linea, Punto, Fiesta (old and new), Figo, Ecosport, Duster, and even Fabia and Polo to a degree, in light of their European versions: you find there has been very little dilution of standards of build, sheetmetal heft, ride and handling, braking and tyre specifications. Sure, fewer airbags, different steering units and diluted engines in some cases, but that's all.
Nice conclusion. I hope that you will still hail Ford after reading this. From the article - "In Europe however safety is priority and to meet the stricter safety norms Ford has had no choice but to improve the crash worthiness of the EcoSport to be sold in Europe. The irony is - these improvements have all been done in India, but not for the Indian customer." The bottom line is every manufacturer will try to cut corner if not forced by regulation because finally, the numbers matter. In a safety ignorant society like ours, it only affects a small percentage of people's buying decision, if a car gets 0 star or 5 stars.

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Safety, sturdiness, weightiness and ride-handling-braking balance are just not important to the Japanese and Korean brand identities in India, or even, to a degree, anywhere else. They do not and will not provide these to a decent level unless forced by the regulations.
I see that the IIHS top safety picks are dominated by Japs and surprisingly Koreans too have a share of the pie. But people just don't want to accept that. The Hyundai Elantra, Kia Optima, Hyundai Genesis etc are among the pick and still, people somehow want to ignore them. Why? I don't know.
Also, I still give credit to Hyundai for offering 6 airbags in the i20, at that price point which was never done by any manufacturer before or after. Still, people think that only Europeans know how to make cars, strange don't you think?
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Old 14th May 2014, 10:57   #214
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Originally Posted by JayKis View Post
Absolutely to the point.This is what I had raised in the morning in the other thread before the clean up and the post got deleted. (Am not a European car fan boy btw but if I had a last chance at life i would like to be seated in one)

Any ways here are two pictures which are pretty symbolic of the build quality of a European car and Japanese car.

One got hit by a train (Palio)and other (Ertiga) got hit by Tata 407 truck. The Ertiga looks more like it had come out of the train wreck thou!!!

(For people who think that the Tata 407 can cause more damage than a train am all ears wide open )

Attachment 1240576
Even though someone says light sheet metal doesn't matter in true world this matters a lot. In modern world Japanese have flimsy outer shell and decent inner. The European have tank like outer shell as well as tank like inner shell. It's quite easy to buy the tin can sheet metal tart maruti and honda do and save huge money. Not only that they further cut cost by giving puny tyres, no engine guard, no padding etc etc.
While someone May again debate that the ertiga is knocked down by 407 while palio by train and this is not a similar accident here is a similar accident
Attached Thumbnails
Japanese or European cars? Whats your pick in India?-img_23906649379394.jpeg  

Japanese or European cars? Whats your pick in India?-img_23897688193091.jpeg  

Japanese or European cars? Whats your pick in India?-img_23888478227871.jpeg  

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Old 14th May 2014, 11:01   #215
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Default Re: Japanese or European cars? Whats your pick in India?

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Originally Posted by A350XWB
I see that the IIHS top safety picks are dominated by Japs and surprisingly Koreans too have a share of the pie. But people just don't want to accept that. The Hyundai Elantra, Kia Optima, Hyundai Genesis etc are among the pick and still, people somehow want to ignore them. Why? I don't know. Also, I still give credit to Hyundai for offering 6 airbags in the i20, at that price point which was never done by any manufacturer before or after. Still, people think that only Europeans know how to make cars, strange don't you think?
Yeah, it is indeed odd that folks 'ignore' hard data available from tests that benchmark cars against a common criteria-set and instead try to build their argument on loosely worded intangible phrases/sentences like "the car feels tough", "built like a tank" etc.

BTW good points there, A350XWB !!!

Last edited by supremeBaleno : 14th May 2014 at 11:03.
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Old 14th May 2014, 11:10   #216
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Originally Posted by ad3952n View Post
Ishaan, I have had my share of collisions with Premier Padmini (major collision during childhood in August 1993) and the Optra (Collided with a hatchback on NH8 in June 2013). And I honestly swear to my soul that no matter what the ratings say these 2 cars are pretty safe in my opinion. I consider Optra as a tank. However, even if I compare my Honda and Esteem, then Esteem stands out far far better than this Japanese crap called City Ivtec.

As an owner, The worst car till date I have owned is Ivtec Honda City. No matter whether it has 2 airbags, this car is a crap in terms of structural strength. It could be 3rd gen Honda city but for me it is the 3rd class Honda City. It only speaks of looks and speed nothing else.

Thanks

AD
I hope for your sake that this silly belief of yours does not lead to something regrettable. City might be built poorly and might get dented or whatever but if you are headed towards a tree at 80kph, you better pray that you're not in your Optra, Padmini or Esteem
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Old 14th May 2014, 12:02   #217
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Default Re: Japanese or European cars? Whats your pick in India?

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Originally Posted by supremeBaleno View Post
Yeah, it is indeed odd that folks 'ignore' hard data available from tests that benchmark cars against a common criteria-set and instead try to build their argument on loosely worded intangible phrases/sentences like "the car feels tough", "built like a tank" etc.

BTW good points there, A350XWB !!!
Thanks supremeBaleno. It is funny that hard evidence and numbers are ignored and opinions are based more on beliefs and tales. I feel sad when people give examples citing real life accident pictures. Especially in India, there are no two accidents which are alike (every factor from the speed and weight of the vehicle to the density of air can affect the dynamics of a crash). So, there is no point in comparing two cars which suffered accidents in two different ways. And it is for this exact reason we have crash tests under standard test environment.

Last edited by A350XWB : 14th May 2014 at 12:03.
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Old 14th May 2014, 12:14   #218
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Originally Posted by IshaanIan View Post
I hope for your sake that this silly belief of yours does not lead to something regrettable. City might be built poorly and might get dented or whatever but if you are headed towards a tree at 80kph, you better pray that you're not in your Optra, Padmini or Esteem
+1 to you Ishaan. We have had a Fiat 1100D during my childhood days. I remember that it had a real rigid sheet metal. But still, this will not be a car in which I would like to be in, witnessing a crash, if it has to be. The point is that just a rigid sheet metal does not make a car safe. If that would have been, the manufacturers would not have been indulged in advanced research to make a car safer. Heck, the 1100D we had, did not even have seat belts. The newer Padminis might have had front seat belts, but I am sure that no Padmini would have had rear seat belts. Plus, the body structure and inner shell would surely transfer all the impact energy to the occupants inside the cabin, as it was never made to absorb the impact in the first place. The metal dashboard, steering column, etc. would not help either.

Also, Japanese cars are not as fragile as they are presented to be by many Euro cars-stereo typed thinkers. Also, what is more important in a crash is that the body absorbs energy by crumpling. Saving the occupant is important, not the car. Though, like most people here would stress on getting the safest version of the car one is looking to buy. Hence, I won't hesitate to buy a Japanese car with fully loaded safety features with a 5 star safety rating.

We are talking about insurance claims & all, but should we not talk about the people who walked out safely after the crashes? And yes, safety is important, but then reliability, hassle free ASC, cheaper spares & running costs is also important in the Indian context. Tell me a Euro Manufacturer which can claim a give a better after sales support than a Maruti or a Honda? Tell me a Jap car in India which is not reliable?

Last edited by saket77 : 14th May 2014 at 12:15.
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Old 14th May 2014, 12:25   #219
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Originally Posted by A350XWB View Post
Nice conclusion. I hope that you will still hail Ford after reading this. From the article - "In Europe however safety is priority and to meet the stricter safety norms Ford has had no choice but to improve the crash worthiness of the EcoSport to be sold in Europe. The irony is - these improvements have all been done in India, but not for the Indian customer." The bottom line is every manufacturer will try to cut corner if not forced by regulation because finally, the numbers matter. In a safety ignorant society like ours, it only affects a small percentage of people's buying decision, if a car gets 0 star or 5 stars.
Good God!! 300 different parts and a structure that is stronger! Certainly an eye opener. Thanks for the link. At least Ford admit it. I wonder what the others are like Jap, Korean... and yes even the much vaunted Europeans. I'm sure then that this is a common practice across brands and origins.
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Old 14th May 2014, 12:32   #220
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Originally Posted by A350XWB View Post

I see that the IIHS top safety picks are dominated by Japs and surprisingly Koreans too have a share of the pie. But people just don't want to accept that. The Hyundai Elantra, Kia Optima, Hyundai Genesis etc are among the pick and still, people somehow want to ignore them. Why? I don't know.
Also, I still give credit to Hyundai for offering 6 airbags in the i20, at that price point which was never done by any manufacturer before or after. Still, people think that only Europeans know how to make cars, strange don't you think?
To put it in a different perspective, there is no point in having even 20 airbags if your entire car becomes a crumple zone. The crumple zone is the biggest deciding factor in a car which determines the safety. The ability of the crumple zone to protect the occupants depends on the metallurgy and the ability to absorb the kintetic energy in the event of a crash.

If the crumple zone cant save you, no amount of airbags and seatbelts is going to save!


Looking at the accidents forum, most of the Japanese cars ending up in a serious accident have deformed crumple zones. Best example (w.r.t the pics posted) look at the Ertiga crumple zone, look at the palio crumple zone, look at the Linea crumple zone. All the accidents might have happened differently at different speeds but one rarely see a European car with a deformed crumple zone.

Now the common argument is that European cars rarely sell in numbers when compared to the Japanese and hence the number of serious accidents is less. Since it is difficult to get percentage wise data on the accidents we can only rely on how the car performs in an accident. With respect to pictorial representations in most accidents that data is heavily skewed in favor of the European cars.

High speed handling is another very serious factor when it comes to getting into the accidents in the first place. If the handling is suspect, that itself means that the chances of an accident becomes much higher. We all know that most of the European cars handle much better than their Japanese/Korean counter parts (this is limited to the models in the Indian market)

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Originally Posted by amit_mechengg View Post
Even though someone says light sheet metal doesn't matter in true world this matters a lot. In modern world Japanese have flimsy outer shell and decent inner. The European have tank like outer shell as well as tank like inner shell. It's quite easy to buy the tin can sheet metal tart maruti and honda do and save huge money. Not only that they further cut cost by giving puny tyres, no engine guard, no padding etc etc.
While someone May again debate that the ertiga is knocked down by 407 while palio by train and this is not a similar accident here is a similar accident
Precisely the point. The crumple zone (shell) is the biggest factor in the accident. And the cost cutting results into suspect high speed handling as well. The chances of getting into the accident becomes higher, the chances of surviving it becomes lower.

TO give a better representation, in mathematical terms if Y is crumple zone ability and Z is handling ability and Safety (S) = Y x Z
If Y becomes 0.7Y and Z becomes 0.7Z then SAfety becomes 0.7Y X 0.7Z = 0.49 S. The safety has come down by 50%. Get the drift?

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Old 14th May 2014, 12:40   #221
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Looking at the accidents forum, most of the Japanese cars ending up in a serious accident have deformed crumple zones. Best example (w.r.t the pics posted) look at the Ertiga crumple zone, look at the palio crumple zone, look at the Linea crumple zone. All the accidents might have happened differently at different speeds but one rarely see a European car with a deformed crumple zone.
Also, point to be noted is that the Ertiga pictures posted a few posts earlier looks like being involved in a HEAD-ON crash with a big vehicle at a high speed. However, the Palio, unless the driver wanted it, must not have been involved in a head on collision with the train. It would have been a T-bone, where there would be a lot lesser damage to the structure of the car. Hence, pictures are not comparable, in my opinion.
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Old 14th May 2014, 12:56   #222
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If the crumple zone cant save you, no amount of airbags and seatbelts is going to save!
I never told that structural integrity is not important. Infact, the first thing a car should have is a body shell which is properly constructed. By this, I mean the crumple zones should crush thereby absorbing the impact energy and the passenger cabin should remain intact without any intrusions.
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Originally Posted by JayKis View Post
Looking at the accidents forum, most of the Japanese cars ending up in a serious accident have deformed crumple zones. Best example (w.r.t the pics posted) look at the Ertiga crumple zone, look at the palio crumple zone, look at the Linea crumple zone.
Deformed crumple zones does not worry me, but deformed passenger cabins do. Crumple zones are made for, well, crumpling under impact. Again, I have to ask the same question. Do we have the exact scenario of those two accidents? Just telling that the Palio was hit by a train does not give the whole picture, right?
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All the accidents might have happened differently at different speeds but one rarely see a European car with a deformed crumple zone.
Now the common argument is that European cars rarely sell in numbers when compared to the Japanese and hence the number of serious accidents is less. Since it is difficult to get percentage wise data on the accidents we can only rely on how the car performs in an accident.
I think you meant deformed passenger cabin. Even though you are dismissing the statistics, I have to ask a question. Go to the accidents thread and there are two different accidents one a Swift Dzire and another one a Honda City and laden trucks were toppled on top of them. The cars were transformed into sheets of metal under the weight. Now what would have happened if it was a European car? Do you think a Linea or a Vento can take the impact of a 40-50 ton truck falling flat on their top and keep the occupants safe? And why do you think these happened to Japanese cars? Is it because of bad handling? Thin sheet metal? Or due to the fact they were there at the wrong place at the wrong time?
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High speed handling is another very serious factor when it comes to getting into the accidents in the first place. If the handling is suspect, that itself means that the chances of an accident becomes much higher. We all know that most of the European cars handle much better than their Japanese/Korean counter parts (this is limited to the models in the Indian market)
More than high speed handling, the major cause of accidents in India is the driver. The key is to understand the limits of the vehicle, the road and ones' own abilities which will help avoid accidents. One more question - the classical case: Princess Diana died in a Merc S-Class. By the European logic which is prevalent here, nothing would have happened to the people inside, right? Now, do not spin back the argument that accidents are different

I believe that a safe car can come from any manufacturer, irrespective of their nationality. And recently, the safest car (the one which scored the highest points in US crash testing) came from a Chinese manufacturer and there was a thread not so long ago regarding that.

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Old 14th May 2014, 13:16   #223
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Yeah, it is indeed odd that folks 'ignore' hard data available from tests that benchmark cars against a common criteria-set and instead try to build their argument on loosely worded intangible phrases/sentences like "the car feels tough", "built like a tank" etc.

BTW good points there, A350XWB !!!
These tests of cars sold abroad doesn't apply in here the same way. I am sure Swifts sold abroad are safer than those in India by a huge margin. Same is what we saw with i10. Cars coming from same plant produced in Indian soil but we are given ones with poor safety. Remember Hyundai i20's with 5 star safety stickers even on a magna variant with just two airbags?
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Thanks supremeBaleno. It is funny that hard evidence and numbers are ignored and opinions are based more on beliefs and tales. I feel sad when people give examples citing real life accident pictures. Especially in India, there are no two accidents which are alike (every factor from the speed and weight of the vehicle to the density of air can affect the dynamics of a crash). So, there is no point in comparing two cars which suffered accidents in two different ways. And it is for this exact reason we have crash tests under standard test environment.
You are right, every accident is different from each other. But still when we take an overall picture, asian cars especially from Maruti appears to be unsafe. Another trend I am seeing here is whenever there is a fatality in a Suzuki car people tend to blame it on the severity of the crash. And whenever a european car saves a person they say that he was lucky and the crash was less severe. Our accidents in india thread actually represents a random number of accidents taking place in India. If some one can make up a number of deaths to number of accidents ratio for Punto/linea and then compare it with that of a Swift/Dzire whatever I am saying will be clear. It would then show the probabilty of some one loosing his life in case of an accident in a swift/punto. I am sure that chances of death would be lower in a Punto by a big margin when compared to a swift. Also higher number of Fiat accidents are reported here when compared to their low sales because a few percentage of these owners are/ will have a teambhpian friend. You can say that in a particular accident there were many factors which resulted in an injury to a guy in a swift and in another case someone was lucky in a Punto. But that cant be the case always. We cant always say a that swifts crash was more severe than Punto and no two accidents are same thats the reason for injuries of the swift passenger each and every time. When more and more people are getting injured in one car and less people are getting injured on another its pretty much normal to assume that one is less safer than the other one. And I know I am going to get criticized for this but personally I hate Maruti Suzuki when it comes to safety. It makes me feel that we Indians are considered fools by them as they come up with cars with tinny build, poor brakes and powerful engines increasing chances of accidents. Its shocking to see the countries largest manufacturer not value life of their customers despite making so much profits. Still we go and buy them in plenty. On the other hand I respect Fiat for not cutting corners on safety despite making big losses. Just compare the above pics of a linea crashing onto a Tata 407 and check the case of the ertiga which crashed with another Tata 407. Ok agreed no two accidents are same but there is not even a comparison between the condition of those two cars after that accident.
And people who say Build quality doesn't matter, you guys are right but only to an extent. If you are comparing an ambassador and a Dzire agreed the Dzire will be safer. At low speeds dzires crumple zones will take the impact and protect passengers while the amby would transfer the entire energy to passengers injuring them. But consider a high speed crash and we see its not just crumple zones that give away in these poorly built Japanese cars. Everything crumples in them while in a properly built european car what has to crumple crumples and what has to stay intact stays intact. And european cars generally have better handling and brakes(there are exceptions too) which help in active safety to avoid an accident. I wont be posting anymore about this topic as I am too busy now and its an extermely difficult task to change someones perception. I have tried many times but have failed miserably. People think about safety and other stuff only when their loved ones gets injured in an accident and by that time it might be too late. Many value money over life thinking about resale,badge value. Recently I saw a dzire vdi sporting a fancy number that costs 50k! He would have bought a zdi but instead he did this! I am sure I will loose money when I sell my european rides but thats the premium I pay for my life. Heck whats the use of resale value if you aren't alive to sell it? So no matter what, we Indians will still buy unsafe cars in plenty, drive them rashly, crash them and kill ourselves, government will stay ignorant and crooked automotive manufactureres will keep on making profits by playing with our lives. And no matter what you drive if you dont drive responsibly nothing can save you.
The above facts are my personal views only and I dont intend to hurt anyone. I took the case of Maruti just as an example but there are many more who are more or less the same.

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Old 14th May 2014, 13:22   #224
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These tests of cars sold abroad doesn't apply in here the same way. I am sure Swifts sold abroad are safer than those in India by a huge margin. Same is what we saw with i10.
You are right, but that is the case for all brands. A Polo or Punto whatever is tested outside India is not the same we get here. This was clearly illustrated by A350XWB with the EcoSport example where the Indian plant makes the more improved version for export market, but we don't get it here. The only way out is for India also to have some kind of a crash-test rating facility. Till then, the only way is to look at ratings of same/similar car outside India. Or worse rely on assumptions like you mention below.

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You are right, every accident is different from each other. But still when we take an overall picture, asian cars especially from Maruti appears to be unsafe.
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Old 14th May 2014, 13:24   #225
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However, even if I compare my Honda and Esteem, then Esteem stands out far far better than this Japanese crap called City Ivtec.

As an owner, The worst car till date I have owned is Ivtec Honda City. No matter whether it has 2 airbags, this car is a crap in terms of structural strength. It could be 3rd gen Honda city but for me it is the 3rd class Honda City. It only speaks of looks and speed nothing else.

Thanks

AD
Dear AD,

Care to elaborate on your analysis of "structural strength" of the iVtec Honda City. On what basis have you compared it to your esteem and called the city crap and 3rd class? On what basis is the Esteem better or safer? Have you had any personal experience of a crash in either of the two and come to this conclusion?

Would really like to know.

VVB
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