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View Poll Results: Whats your pick?
European Cars 211 43.78%
Japanese Cars 219 45.44%
Others (Indian, Korean, American etc.) 22 4.56%
Prefer both equally 30 6.22%
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Old 14th May 2014, 13:30   #226
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Originally Posted by supremeBaleno View Post
You are right, but that is the case for all brands. A Polo or Punto whatever is tested outside India is not the same we get here. This was clearly illustrated by A350XWB with the EcoSport example where the Indian plant makes the more improved version for export market, but we don't get it here. The only way out is for India also to have some kind of a crash-test rating facility. Till then, the only way is to look at ratings of same/similar car outside India. Or worse rely on assumptions like you mention below.
Yes thats my personal assumption and I believe in it and it has worked out till now. Also I had checked out Puntos when I was in Zurich and I didnt feel any structural difference but just like you said even I dont know whether there has been any change on the inside. And even if Fiat has diluted something on safety on the Punto(which I doubt) those dilution levels are far less than that for the swift. That can be clearly seen on our Accidents in India thread too.
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Old 14th May 2014, 13:58   #227
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Originally Posted by ad3952n View Post
Ishaan, I have had my share of collisions with Premier Padmini (major collision during childhood in August 1993) and the Optra (Collided with a hatchback on NH8 in June 2013). And I honestly swear to my soul that no matter what the ratings say these 2 cars are pretty safe in my opinion. I consider Optra as a tank. However, even if I compare my Honda and Esteem, then Esteem stands out far far better than this Japanese crap called City Ivtec.

As an owner, The worst car till date I have owned is Ivtec Honda City. No matter whether it has 2 airbags, this car is a crap in terms of structural strength. It could be 3rd gen Honda city but for me it is the 3rd class Honda City. It only speaks of looks and speed nothing else.

Thanks

AD
Dear AD,

Care to elaborate, under what testing conditions did you really test the structural strength of Honda City VS the Maruti Esteem. I have my reservations; As per the ASEAN NCAP Crash Test, 3rd generation Honda City gets 5 star rating with AOP: 15.44, 5 stars; COP: 81%, and the Esteem doesn't even feature anywhere. This is because, Esteem does not have any of the modern safety features, that today's cars come with. As far as I know, Maruti prefers keeping their cars light, so I have a doubt, on Esteem's structural strength to be better than City. Also, the last time I remember Maruti had send their Alto, they came back crying, because the ASEAN NCAP rated Alto with 0 star. With a comment, most unsafe car in its category for occupants whether front or rear. I would request you to be fair and let's compare apples with apples.

However, if you are comparing the first generation Honda City vs the Esteem, probably both would get below par ratings. But this generation City, is definitely better than the Esteem.

Your thoughts, appreciated.

PS- pasting the link of the NCAP Tests covering most of the sold in India Cars, in-case you decide not to trust me

http://www.autocarindia.com/auto-new...rs-384684.aspx

Last edited by sawnilrules : 14th May 2014 at 14:12. Reason: addition
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Old 14th May 2014, 13:59   #228
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Default Re: Japanese or European cars? Whats your pick in India?

My pick...

European cars for the highway and out of city drives.
Japs or Korean cars for intra city use.
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Old 14th May 2014, 14:07   #229
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When Indian models of Polo/Figo/i10/Alto/Nano were tested, all cars scored a grand zero since they had no airbags. The one's with airbags scored 4 (Polo and Figo I guess) what's relevant here is:
  • These tests were all done under standard conditions, so the results can be compared unlike with accidents where no two are comparable.
  • These are 'SOLD in India' models.

So if somebody is involved in a serious crash,on a car equipped with no safety aids,European or Japanese, the chances of fatality are high. I don't think sheet metal plays a very important role in this,if that was the case there's no way Polo would have scored a big zero. Its a very well built car,second only to Fiat IMO.

And its not like people in Suzuki's are certainly dead incase of serious accidents. Read through these threads to see how airbags and seatbelts helped save lives in high speed crashes, where according to some the whole car is a crumple zone!

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/street...-accident.html (My Dzire met with an accident)

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/street...my-life-5.html

IMNSHO,airbags and seatbelts save lives than the so called thud inducing build quality,sheet metal blah blah.

I've also observed Fiats look less battered after many severe accidents and the owners walk out without a scratch,but I think this is more to do with the fact that these owners had the brains and money to opt for a variant with ABS and Airbags which actually saved them. The 'aam' aadmi would gladly forgo 'unnecessary' safety features (he's a very safe driver as certified by him) for bling i.e ICE,Alloys etc.

PS: I'm no Euro hater. We have a Skoda Octavia at home

Last edited by shashank.nk : 14th May 2014 at 14:31.
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Old 14th May 2014, 14:27   #230
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ad3952n View Post
Ishaan, I have had my share of collisions with Premier Padmini (major collision during childhood in August 1993) and the Optra (Collided with a hatchback on NH8 in June 2013). And I honestly swear to my soul that no matter what the ratings say these 2 cars are pretty safe in my opinion. I consider Optra as a tank. However, even if I compare my Honda and Esteem, then Esteem stands out far far better than this Japanese crap called City Ivtec.

As an owner, The worst car till date I have owned is Ivtec Honda City. No matter whether it has 2 airbags, this car is a crap in terms of structural strength. It could be 3rd gen Honda city but for me it is the 3rd class Honda City. It only speaks of looks and speed nothing else.

Thanks

AD
Dear AD

These are serious accusations you have here against the City. Having owned the Esteem in the past and I currently own the City iVtec, I failed to understand what exactly you mean to say.

Please elaborate if you have been in any life threatening accident in any of the cars being discussed here.

What you are saying simply doesn't make any sense, it means that these testing firms are just good for nothing.

The fact that u still haven't sold your iVtec is also surprising.

Regards,
Swapnil
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Old 14th May 2014, 14:30   #231
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Default Re: Japanese or European cars? Whats your pick in India?

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Originally Posted by sawnilrules View Post
AD,

Care to elaborate, under what testing conditions did you really test the structural strength of Honda City VS the Maruti Esteem.

As per the ASEAN NCAP Crash Test, 3rd generation Honda City gets 5 star rating with AOP: 15.44, 5 stars; COP: 81%, and the Esteem doesn't even feature anywhere.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vvb8530 View Post
Dear AD,

Care to elaborate on your analysis of "structural strength" of the iVtec Honda City. On what basis have you compared it to your esteem and called the city crap and 3rd class? On what basis is the Esteem better or safer? Have you had any personal experience of a crash in either of the two and come to this conclusion?
Dear Mate(s), With utmost respect to your point of views, I as a owner have found the metal sheet used on the City Ivtec very thin in comparison to the metal used in Esteem. Hence, Honda City Ivtec is actually built with 3rd class building material.

I have met with back to back collision with my Esteem in October 2008 wherein because of sudden braking by the vehicle in front of me I collided with it. At the time of impact the speed of the car after applying brakes was 50-55kmph and I wore seat belts. The Alto that I rear ended was completely smashed from rear left side and my Esteem suffered a damage on hood and bumper only. Even after this the car was in driving condition.

Coming to the City Ivtec, This car is pathetic atleast for me in terms of paper thin metal. The 3rd gen Honda City can't even take a minor hit from a motorcycle. My car was hit from rear left by a Santro in October 2012 and it created a big dent on the quarter panel and the speed at the time of impact was about 30-40 kmph. After paying 8+ lakhs I have been very disappointed. No amount of ratings or stars will ever be able to change my point of view on the 3rd gen City Ivtec. Maybe, facts depict a good picture but I simply don't accept it as what I have experienced so far is totally different.

I have no issues with any other Honda car but owning this 3rd gen City has been one of my biggest mistake. If it was not for the sake of my mom and the modification ideas that I wanted to apply, I never would have gone in for this car. A small pebble can create a dent on it. I guess this is not expected of a respected brand. Maybe, my views won't be of concern to Honda but it does not mean that I have no right to show their faults.

I have given my personal point of view on this car and for me as individual this Honda City 3rd gen model will always be a rotten buy. No offence to other owners but I have been cursing myself ever since I bought it.

If both of you may read my car's review I have mentioned the short-comings in it. The 3rd gen City is all about looks and high speeds only.

Quote:
Originally Posted by swapszone View Post

These are serious accusations you have here against the City. Having owned the Esteem in the past and I currently own the City iVtec, I failed to understand what exactly you mean to say.

Please elaborate if you have been in any life threatening accident in any of the cars being discussed here.

The fact that u still haven't sold your iVtec is also surprising.
Swapnil, They actually are serious because apart from having looks and fuel efficiency this car is nothing but a thin sheet of metal in comparison to it's competitors. Being an owner, my point is valid as a personal thought. 2 times it has happened with me that my City Ivtec has ended up in a minor hit at 20-30kmph and resulted in big dents. I am not doubting the ratings but as a person I do not go by them.

As far as selling is concerned, I love my mom more than this car. It is her emotions that I respect and my passion of customizing that I live because of which I am still maintaining this car.

Thanks

AD

Last edited by ad3952n : 14th May 2014 at 14:38. Reason: Multi-quote.
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Old 14th May 2014, 14:39   #232
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Default Re: Japanese or European cars? Whats your pick in India?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ad3952n View Post
Dear Mate(s), With utmost respect to your point of views, I as a owner have found the metal sheet used on the City Ivtec very thin in comparison to the metal used in Esteem. Hence, Honda City Ivtec is actually built with 3rd class building material.

I have met with back to back collision with my Esteem in October 2008 wherein because of sudden braking by the vehicle in front of me I collided with it. At the time of impact the speed of the car after applying brakes was 50-55kmph and I wore seat belts. The Alto that I rear ended was completely smashed from rear left side and my Esteem suffered a damage on hood and bumper only. Even after this the car was in driving condition.

Coming to the City Ivtec, This car is pathetic atleast for me in terms of paper thin metal. The 3rd gen Honda City can't even take a minor hit from a motorcycle. My car was hit from rear left by a Santro in October 2012 and it created a big dent on the quarter panel and the speed at the time of impact was about 30-40 kmph. After paying 8+ lakhs I have been very disappointed. No amount of ratings or stars will ever be able to change my point of view on the 3rd gen City Ivtec. Maybe, facts depict a good picture but I simply don't accept it as what I have experienced so far is totally different.

I have no issues with any other Honda car but owning this 3rd gen City has been one of my biggest mistake. If it was not for the sake of my mom and the modification ideas that I wanted to apply, I never would have gone in for this car. A small pebble can create a dent on it. I guess this is not expected of a respected brand. Maybe, my views won't be of concern to Honda but it does not mean that I have no right to show their faults.

I have given my personal point of view on this car and for me as individual this Honda City 3rd gen model will always be a rotten buy. No offence to other owners but I have been cursing myself ever since I bought it.

If both of you may read my car's review I have mentioned the short-comings in it. The 3rd gen City is all about looks and high speeds only.

Thanks

AD
Completely Agree ! You don't need to actually meet with an accident to see the sheet metal quality, just a knock on the metal is enough for you to know and in case you have the heart, punch it with your knuckle.
I have been using Volkswagen and have also used Maruti and now Hyundai. Sheet metal quality of Volkswagen has been the best so far. The new Honda City was equally disappointing, the metal looked quite thin and cheap. It is a different story that HONDA brand and good engine drives sales and most of the people can boast of having owned a CITY buys CITY... In might be good car in terms of engine, stability and other factors but definitely not a good built car.
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Old 14th May 2014, 15:02   #233
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ad3952n View Post
This car is pathetic atleast for me in terms of paper thin metal.
Thanks

AD
Completely agree with Akash on this point. The sheet metal that is used on the City is too thin. No need to even meet with an accident/bump to know that. Just open the boot and the absence of any damping material would show you exactly what Akash has stated. I too say this as an owner of the particular City model. Thats my only grouse with the model. It may have airbags, ABS etc. but the sheet metal used for the fenders/boot etc leaves a lot to be desired.

Open the doors of a Skoda/VW immediately after that of the City and anyone can make out the difference.

Cheers
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Old 14th May 2014, 15:10   #234
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Originally Posted by saket77 View Post
Also, point to be noted is that the Ertiga pictures posted a few posts earlier looks like being involved in a HEAD-ON crash with a big vehicle at a high speed. However, the Palio, unless the driver wanted it, must not have been involved in a head on collision with the train. It would have been a T-bone, where there would be a lot lesser damage to the structure of the car. Hence, pictures are not comparable, in my opinion.
Even for a T-bone, the impact force of a train hitting a car is huge!!!
For e.g., the impact force of a Tata 407 ( with full payload at 5500 kilos) travelling at a speed of 80 kmph and stops in a distance of 10 metres will generate an impact force of around 12 tons. Whereas a train (a WDM2 weighs 112000 kilos) travelling at a speed of 50 kmph and stopping in a distance of 100 metres will generate an impact force of 12 tons as well.
Do agree that in the palio case the car must be close to stationary but in the case of Ertiga the relative velocity will be much higher. But the idea was to just show that impact forces can be comparable

The Ertiga had a head on crash with a Tata 407 truck. The Linea also (in one of subsequent posts) had a head on crash with a Tata 407 as well. So that should be atleast comparable, right?
Quote:
Originally Posted by A350XWB View Post
Deformed crumple zones does not worry me, but deformed passenger cabins do. Crumple zones are made for, well, crumpling under impact. Again, I have to ask the same question. Do we have the exact scenario of those two accidents? Just telling that the Palio was hit by a train does not give the whole picture, right?

I think you meant deformed passenger cabin..
Sorry my bad. I meant the Passenger cubicle instead of the crumple zone. Dont have exact scenario of both of them. But to have the exact scenario, we would need the speed of the car, speed of the train or truck, angle of impact, stopping distance of both car and train/tryuck to come to a conclusion. Am real sorry I dont have that!!

But all I can say is that the Palio passenger cabin is intact whereas the Ertiga is not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by A350XWB View Post
Even though you are dismissing the statistics, I have to ask a question. Go to the accidents thread and there are two different accidents one a Swift Dzire and another one a Honda City and laden trucks were toppled on top of them. The cars were transformed into sheets of metal under the weight. Now what would have happened if it was a European car? Do you think a Linea or a Vento can take the impact of a 40-50 ton truck falling flat on their top and keep the occupants safe? And why do you think these happened to Japanese cars? Is it because of bad handling? Thin sheet metal? Or due to the fact they were there at the wrong place at the wrong time?
Well I do have enough proof to tell you that a European car owner and his family did walk away even after a truck filled with stones toppled ON their car. So I guess now its time for you to admit that the European cars are better to their Japanese counterparts atleast in the INdian market!! :-)


Here is the link to the story !!!
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/street...st1422879#3088
May be it was the car driver, may be he was at the wrong place at the wrong time. But he and his family did get a second chance at life atleast partly due to the car!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by A350XWB View Post
More than high speed handling, the major cause of accidents in India is the driver. The key is to understand the limits of the vehicle, the road and ones' own abilities which will help avoid accidents. One more question - the classical case: Princess Diana died in a Merc S-Class. By the European logic which is prevalent here, nothing would have happened to the people inside, right? Now, do not spin back the argument that accidents are different
I believe that a safe car can come from any manufacturer, irrespective of their nationality. And recently, the safest car (the one which scored the highest points in US crash testing) came from a Chinese manufacturer and there was a thread not so long ago regarding that.
I completely agree with you on the driver part. Drivers decide the course of their lives. When they make an error, atleast the car should be able to cover up for his/her mistakes most of the time! Isnt that what we all want?
Princess Diana could have been alive if she had used the safety device in her car appropriately. She wasnt wearing a seat belt. No car cannot protect you if you are not wearing a seat belt!
Yes and any safe car car can come from any manufacturer. Its just that in the cut throat Indian car market, the manufacturers that cut corners (in safety) to please the customers in other areas are predominantly Japanese or Indian arms of Japanese companies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by supremeBaleno View Post
You are right, but that is the case for all brands. A Polo or Punto whatever is tested outside India is not the same we get here. This was clearly illustrated by A350XWB with the EcoSport example where the Indian plant makes the more improved version for export market, but we don't get it here. The only way out is for India also to have some kind of a crash-test rating facility. Till then, the only way is to look at ratings of same/similar car outside India. Or worse rely on assumptions like you mention below.
We are all talking on circumstantial evidence here. If we have an answer to the difference between a European/Japanese car in the other markets and the same car in the Indian market we could talk on real terms. Till then the Global NCAP or ASEAN NCAP is pretty much useless.

To give an example there is a helmet manufacturer called LS2. It has a model called FF350. It has a Sharp rating (UK rating) of 4 out of 5 which is good. They also have another model called FF351 which has a Sharp rating of 1 which is quite bad. Now these guys sell the same FF351 with a Sharp rating of 4 which is misleading and can be dangerous in an accident.

THis is precisely the problems we Indians are facing at the moment. Be it any manufacturer, unless there are stringent regulatory bodies to make sure that one is conforming to standards its very likely that the manufacturers will cut corners. So the quality of the car irrespective of how their safety ratings are in different markets will be a question mark in the Indian market. Having an Indian crash test should solve this problem!
Hope to ask these questions to the ARAI guys if I get a chance to meet them next week.

Last edited by JayKis : 14th May 2014 at 15:18.
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Old 14th May 2014, 15:24   #235
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Originally Posted by RohanDheman View Post

Open the doors of a Skoda/VW immediately after that of the City and anyone can make out the difference.

Cheers
Rohan
Is this an issue with the other Japanese cars as well? Namely the T badge ones. My feeling was that Innova is a better built one. Same with my XUV. I haven't driven an Etios yet and hence not sure about it.
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Old 14th May 2014, 15:33   #236
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Originally Posted by JayKis View Post

The Ertiga had a head on crash with a Tata 407 truck. The Linea also (in one of subsequent posts) had a head on crash with a Tata 407 as well. So that should be atleast comparable, right?
Appreciate the maths done there Jay, but unfortunately, I will still answer the question you asked in negative. IMO, no two accidents are comparable. The only place where they can be comparable would be in the crash testing facilities. There are a lot of factors which can play a role in determining damages in real world when it comes to accidents. The only way to compare them is to conduct the crash in a controlled environment like the testing facilities do.

However, safety is just one point which we are discussing here. The thread is about a Jap & Euro car and which one being better in India. The Japs surpass the Euro manufacturers in providing after sales support and that is a strong point which swings it in their favor. Also, the FE and overall maintenance costs are lower compared to the Euro competition. India is a country with mostly middle income level people. To add to it, fuel is outrageously expensive here (thanks to Govt. policies); hence if the people find some financial respite by the high FE figures of Japs; then there is a strong case for the Japanese cars.


Regards,
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Old 14th May 2014, 15:38   #237
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Is this an issue with the other Japanese cars as well? Namely the T badge ones. My feeling was that Innova is a better built one. Same with my XUV. I haven't driven an Etios yet and hence not sure about it.
Not entirely. Toyota in my opinion are slightly better built than the Honda of the equiviliant price point. Etios i am not too sure about since i have only sat in it a couple of times from the Airport and i havent driven the Amaze. We had the Brio briefly too (wife's old car when we just got married) and i wasnt too impressed with the thin sheet metal there as well. Its a phenomenal car to drive make no mistake, just not strong enough in my opinion. Honda makes great cars; something needs to be done about the sheet metal quality. Toyota doesnt have anything in its portfolio currently to compare with the City.

In Kuwait (second home), we have a Camry which i personally found to be slightly better put together than the Accord. Compare these with the Superb/Passat and the German marques are miles ahead in the thickness of sheet metal used.

Coming to the Innova, I agree its a UV thats well put together but again the sheet metal of the fenders is too thin (not so with the XUV-BIL has one of both). A motorcycle handle was able to put in a fairly large dent on the right rear panel of the Innova. Dont have the pic with me but i can post it here when i visit them next.

BTW, i was mightly impressed with the sheet metal quality of the XUV. Interiors not so much!

Cheers
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Old 14th May 2014, 15:43   #238
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Appreciate the maths done there Jay, but unfortunately, I will still answer the question you asked in negative. IMO, no two accidents are comparable. The only place where they can be comparable would be in the crash testing facilities. There are a lot of factors which can play a role in determining damages in real world when it comes to accidents. The only way to compare them is to conduct the crash in a controlled environment like the testing facilities do.

Regards,
Saket.
Well the real test that would do justice to lab results as well as practical results would be banging a honda city/dezire head on with a vento/linea at 120 kmph.

I bet there will be no questions left and at-least then things would be concluded.
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Old 14th May 2014, 15:46   #239
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Well I do have enough proof to tell you that a European car owner and his family did walk away even after a truck filled with stones toppled ON their car. So I guess now its time for you to admit that the European cars are better to their Japanese counterparts atleast in the INdian market!!
I knew that this particular accident scenario will be brought into discussion and in that accident, the tipper did not actually topple ON the Linea, but the small stones did (kind of unloaded onto the car). I was mentioning something like this.

If you read the posts in this thread, one thing is clear. Many of us think that a heavy door, thick sheet metal etc are the mark of a safe car. Then I have to say that our good 'ol Amby will qualify as the safest car. All I wanted to say is this notion of European cars are safer than others is a myth. There are lots of cars which are as safe or better than their European counter parts. Sad part is people still feel that they can evaluate a car by opening the door and listening to the thud. God save them!
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Old 14th May 2014, 15:54   #240
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If affordability is not a factor, European it is. If affordability is a factor, Japanese it is. I voted for European because my heart says European but my pocket is giving me a wicked look.
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