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View Poll Results: Whats your pick?
European Cars 211 43.78%
Japanese Cars 219 45.44%
Others (Indian, Korean, American etc.) 22 4.56%
Prefer both equally 30 6.22%
Voters: 482. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 14th May 2014, 15:57   #241
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Default Re: Japanese or European cars? Whats your pick in India?

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Originally Posted by A350XWB View Post
Sad part is people still feel that they can evaluate a car by opening the door and listening to the thud. God save them!
For a large number of people, majority of whom are not enthusiasts, that reassuring thud makes a lot of difference. For them its the difference between a well built and a poorly build car.

Having said that, it is not the most proper way of judging the build quality of the car, but for a lot of people, a way simpler or rather a convenient one.

The nitty gritty are left to obsessed ones like us!

Just my two cents; no offence meant to what you said.

Rohan
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Old 14th May 2014, 16:04   #242
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Originally Posted by amit_mechengg View Post
Well the real test that would do justice to lab results as well as practical results would be banging a honda city/dezire head on with a vento/linea at 120 kmph.

I bet there will be no questions left and at-least then things would be concluded.
And you know what, anyone surviving in either of the cars and I would name them 'very lucky'

If one thinks that sitting in a Vento/Linea is equivalent of having elixir of life, then they are living in a false sense of security.

There are a lot of stories of some real horrific crashes on TBHP in which people just walked away from both the Euro & Jap cars. Looking at the heap of metal trash behind, many times it was difficult to tell if someone would survive such an accident.
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Old 14th May 2014, 16:06   #243
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Default Re: Japanese or European cars? Whats your pick in India?

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Originally Posted by sawnilrules View Post
Care to elaborate, under what testing conditions did you really test the structural strength of Honda City VS the Maruti Esteem. As per the ASEAN NCAP Crash Test, 3rd generation Honda City gets 5 star rating.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vvb8530 View Post

Care to elaborate on your analysis of "structural strength" of the iVtec Honda City. On what basis have you compared it to your esteem and called the city crap and 3rd class? On what basis is the Esteem better or safer?
Firstly please excuse me for a repeat post. To further elaborate my views regarding the structural strength of Ivtec Honda City and Maruti Esteem (2006) I have just recorded the videos of both my cars. By seeing them you may realize that how ill-built is this Ivtec City and how decently built is the Esteem in it's comparison.

Link to Honda City Ivtec Video:

You can easily hear the pronounced vibration of the inner metal from the rear quarter panel of the Honda City Ivtec.

Link to Maruti Esteem Video:

The sound of metal sheet is much more refined in Esteem which clearly shows the better quality of metal used to build it.

* Both cars have been judged based on the metal used in their rear panels.

Friends, It really takes a lot of courage to bring out the short-falls of your owned vehicles on a unbiased public forum in such a way but in reality these things do help in making an informed choice by the future buyers.

Thanks

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Old 14th May 2014, 16:07   #244
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Default Re: Japanese or European cars? Whats your pick in India?

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Originally Posted by A350XWB View Post
I knew that this particular accident scenario will be brought into discussion and in that accident, the tipper did not actually topple ON the Linea, but the small stones did (kind of unloaded onto the car). I was mentioning something like this.

If you read the posts in this thread, one thing is clear. Many of us think that a heavy door, thick sheet metal etc are the mark of a safe car. Then I have to say that our good 'ol Amby will qualify as the safest car. All I wanted to say is this notion of European cars are safer than others is a myth. There are lots of cars which are as safe or better than their European counter parts. Sad part is people still feel that they can evaluate a car by opening the door and listening to the thud. God save them!
True, thicker sheet metal do not make a car safe. BUT, we cannot strip a car down to check how well it is built. For me, the way the body is built provides enough pointers to how the structure is built. A manufacturer willing to be miserly with the sheet metal is more likely to be miserly with the structure as well.
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Old 14th May 2014, 16:08   #245
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Originally Posted by JayKis View Post
Well I do have enough proof to tell you that a European car owner and his family did walk away even after a truck filled with stones toppled ON their car. So I guess now its time for you to admit that the European cars are better to their Japanese counterparts atleast in the INdian market!! :-)


Here is the link to the story !!!
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/street...st1422879#3088
May be it was the car driver, may be he was at the wrong place at the wrong time. But he and his family did get a second chance at life atleast partly due to the car!!
Your posts are filled with details and other bits that supplement your argument, therefore, as someone who has previously gone through the trouble of making certain assumptions and coming up with resultant forces to simulate accidents, I expected better from you. Common man! You serious? I saw that Linea, and the weight in question that fell on it, was a bunch of small stones. Combined, they may weigh a lot but when falling out of their container, they are free to disperse thus reducing the resultant pressure and impact force on the car. The bulk of the truck only fell on the bonnet. I would call the owners very lucky. You expect me to believe that if the truck were carrying a few boulders that were half the weight of all those stones, that we would see same results?
BTW, I have seen an airport taxi (indigo) crushed under a truck (gigantic Ashok Leyland tipper being used by Larsen & Toubro for construction purposes that was twice the weight of the Tata SE 1613 that toppled on the Linea) but luckily the bulk of the weight was again just a few inches away from the passenger cabin and the driver and passenger along with most of her baggage, got out. Had that truck swerved to avoid the idiot coming on the wrong side even half a second later, the taxi driver's fate would have been different.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blacksport View Post
True, thicker sheet metal do not make a car safe. BUT, we cannot strip a car down to check how well it is built. For me, the way the body is built provides enough pointers to how the structure is built. A manufacturer willing to be miserly with the sheet metal is more likely to be miserly with the structure as well.
While I have been told that my Kizashi is not a true example of miserly east-asian tactics, I would like to refer you to my previous post: http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...ml#post3427934 (Japanese or European cars? Whats your pick in India?)
It is really wrong to put your faith in a cars safety levels, based on the thickness of its metal body. Note that the C-Class I had used for comparison purposes, with a longer bonnet, and slightly thicker metal, let the object of impact cause a an intrusion into the passenger cabin of 50cm at the footwell compared to 15 in the Kizashi.

While it is a component of judging how well composed the car's internal structure might be, do not solely rely on the thickness of metal.

Last edited by IshaanIan : 14th May 2014 at 16:32.
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Old 14th May 2014, 16:20   #246
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Originally Posted by thesilentone View Post
If affordability is not a factor, European it is. If affordability is a factor, Japanese it is. I voted for European because my heart says European but my pocket is giving me a wicked look.
How much in price terms do the Jap & Euro cars differ? Like the Vento/ City and then Punto/ Swift/ Polo. Aren't they priced in close proximity to each other?
I always thought that the Vento/ City (for eg.) would be very similar in pricing depending on the trim level. The Rapid could be had for a little less.

May be the fact that there are not many Euro hatches around, Japs are perceived to be much cheaper. But cars from manufacturers like Skoda are often termed as excellent VFM, at least upfront while purchase.
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Old 14th May 2014, 16:24   #247
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Default Re: Japanese or European cars? Whats your pick in India?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JayKis
We are all talking on circumstantial evidence here. If we have an answer to the difference between a European/Japanese car in the other markets and the same car in the Indian market we could talk on real terms. Till then the Global NCAP or ASEAN NCAP is pretty much useless.
If the NCAP results compiled using proper crash tests is itself useless, then how much value should be given to random snaps posted of accident wrecks, where we have no info at all about the actual accident.

Over the key-board post-mortem of an accident using just a pic of the wreck is not only pointless, but also could provide a wrong sense of security to folks which could end up in trouble.

P.S.: This thread is not just about 'safety' of Jap vs Euro cars. It is about which car would someone choose overall - based on safety, reliability, driving characteristics, service etc. Looks like we are focussing only on safety for last many pages and that itself is futile since we don't have crash ratings for Indian cars to differentiate them.
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Old 14th May 2014, 16:26   #248
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Default Re: Japanese or European cars? Whats your pick in India?

Quote:
Originally Posted by A350XWB View Post
I knew that this particular accident scenario will be brought into discussion and in that accident, the tipper did not actually topple ON the Linea, but the small stones did (kind of unloaded onto the car). I was mentioning something like this.

If you read the posts in this thread, one thing is clear. Many of us think that a heavy door, thick sheet metal etc are the mark of a safe car. Then I have to say that our good 'ol Amby will qualify as the safest car. All I wanted to say is this notion of European cars are safer than others is a myth. There are lots of cars which are as safe or better than their European counter parts. Sad part is people still feel that they can evaluate a car by opening the door and listening to the thud. God save them!
Never said that a heavy door that closes with a thud makes the car safe.

It is the structural integrity of the car plus the seat belts plus the air bags plus the metal quality that makes it safe along with a good driver. Its a package!

We are all talking about the Indian car market here. If you would be kind enough to point out some Japanese cars that are safer than their comparable European peers it would be great.
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Old 14th May 2014, 16:33   #249
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Default Re: Japanese or European cars? Whats your pick in India?

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Originally Posted by ad3952n View Post
Dear Mate(s), With utmost respect to your point of views, I as a owner have found the metal sheet used on the City Ivtec very thin in comparison to the metal used in Esteem. Hence, Honda City Ivtec is actually built with 3rd class building material.

I have met with back to back collision with my Esteem in October 2008 wherein because of sudden braking by the vehicle in front of me I collided with it. At the time of impact the speed of the car after applying brakes was 50-55kmph and I wore seat belts. The Alto that I rear ended was completely smashed from rear left side and my Esteem suffered a damage on hood and bumper only. Even after this the car was in driving condition.

Coming to the City Ivtec, This car is pathetic atleast for me in terms of paper thin metal. The 3rd gen Honda City can't even take a minor hit from a motorcycle. My car was hit from rear left by a Santro in October 2012 and it created a big dent on the quarter panel and the speed at the time of impact was about 30-40 kmph. After paying 8+ lakhs I have been very disappointed. No amount of ratings or stars will ever be able to change my point of view on the 3rd gen City Ivtec. Maybe, facts depict a good picture but I simply don't accept it as what I have experienced so far is totally different.

I have no issues with any other Honda car but owning this 3rd gen City has been one of my biggest mistake. If it was not for the sake of my mom and the modification ideas that I wanted to apply, I never would have gone in for this car. A small pebble can create a dent on it. I guess this is not expected of a respected brand. Maybe, my views won't be of concern to Honda but it does not mean that I have no right to show their faults.

I have given my personal point of view on this car and for me as individual this Honda City 3rd gen model will always be a rotten buy. No offence to other owners but I have been cursing myself ever since I bought it.

If both of you may read my car's review I have mentioned the short-comings in it. The 3rd gen City is all about looks and high speeds only.

AD
Dear AD,

I completely understand and respect your point of view, and i have no intention of changing your point of view either however the only issue i am trying to raise here is that you mention structural strength and poor sheet metal quality, now i am no engineer but the structural strength of a car is not defined alone by the quality of the sheet metal. What i find funny is that you are comparing this to an esteem, as someone else has pointed out in his post as well, pray that you are in your city rather than your esteem in a high speed crash.

Also even if you would have compared the sheet metal quality of the city with any other European car i would have absolutely agreed with you, but i cannot accept your conclusion on the sheet metal quality of esteem being better than the city. In the crash examples that you have quoted, there could be a lot of reasons to explain the difference in the extent of the damage. In fact in a recent thread by another member his Laura was hit by a Honda Activa and the damage was such that the Laura had to be written off due to the extent of the repairs required. Does that mean that the Esteem is better than the Laura too.

What is a known fact and relevant to this thread is that the Europeans are known to have a better quality sheet metal and built like tanks compared to the Jap's, however that does not mean that the Jap's are not safe enough and neither is it right to call them 3rd Class or pathetic just because the sheet metal quality is not good enough for you. Lots of other things that make them 1st Class, reliability and after sales itself getting them there.

Maybe your use choice of expletives and examples was not right.

VVB
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Old 14th May 2014, 16:33   #250
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This thread is not about safety alone, but about how safety (all else being equal) combines and resonates with handling, steering, braking, tyres, and, yes, repair-ability.

All else (such as engine power/torque and driving skill and manners) being equal, European mass market cars, and not just in India though the gap in India is especially egregious, out-handle, out-steer, out-brake, out-grip East Asian vehicles. These last are automotive virtues in themselves but are VITAL to safety, especially in Indian, some of the world's most chaotic and difficult, road and traffic conditions.

The point about scratches, dents and accident-repair is a very telling one. A Japanese or Korean car made for India MAY in the case of some, very few models ensure survival of occupants BUT not of the car itself. A tough strong build, especially of sheet metal, is essential for affordable repair-ability, and affordable insurance rates. European and American cars are built tough and heavy and strong and over-engineered for a reason! Even if that reason is lost on most of the car-buying public here, or on the government.

The reason the Japanese and Korean models are so much flimsier is profits, given the fact that in markets such as ours, their brand promise/story is not at all based on sturdiness, safety, handling, steering and the like, but on mileage, styling, features and of course 'reliability'/ASS.

The very fact that we've been discussing this for pages and are no closer to agreement suggests to me that there are severe information deficits in our market, a very gross information assymmetry between the car companies and the buyer. Who the hell knows accurately, factually, about structural strength and rigidity, braking quality, repair-ability, sheetmetal quality and not just obvious thickness....

It is my considered belief arrived at over several years of car-ownership and market-study that the East Asian brands are abusing and capitalizing on this assymmetry in India. FAR more than the European marques. I guess, though: if the latter had over the last decade effected the improvements in reliability and ASS that they now are, the near-oligopoly of 3 East Asian firms would not have entrenched itself in this marketplace.

Last edited by desdemona : 14th May 2014 at 16:50. Reason: incomplete
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Old 14th May 2014, 16:52   #251
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Default Re: Japanese or European cars? Whats your pick in India?

Slightly OT, but:
Guys this was a very fun and informative experience I think we have pretty much summed up the scenario here in India:

1. Build quality has absolutely zilch to do with crash safety
2. Cars in the sub 15 lakh segments here in India, are sold to us with a few compromises on structural integrity and general quality.
3. The levels of said dilution of quality, seems to be more in East-Asian cars sold in the sub 15 lakh segments here in India. (Global NCAP tests and perhaps a future Indian Government authority for crash test ratings will let us confirm this theory)
4. Using pictures of accidents with no details, should not be of any help to people wondering which car to buy.
5. Thickness of metal used in the body of the car is again no indication of crash safety.

Hopefully that is all? I think we ought to bring this argument to rest now since we are focusing too much on one aspect of this thread and we seem to have come to the end of any useful discussion on this aspect. Further posts don't seem to be adding much value to the discussion so shall we all call it quits? Again, it feels good to be part of a community where we can discuss stuff like this in such depth

Cheers!

Last edited by IshaanIan : 14th May 2014 at 16:54.
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Old 14th May 2014, 17:00   #252
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Threads like this always have a small debate factor in them, and that's a-ok. Me personally, I wouldn't want to speak for someone else about their brand or with intent point out that their car is inferior to another brand. Having said that I hope my view is accepted.

Everyone buys a car for money, maybe for some virtues they like about the automobile like a curve there or a line here or how the headlamps look or its practicality. In India fuel efficiency is a huge factor, even if the real-world mileage is 10kmph the companies have to give a placebo figure to the customer of 15kmpl with an *under ideal conditions disclaimer. Due to this it's well known that almost every company reduces weight in India. Less weight means more mileage. Only way to be sure of no compromise is to import a model. Secondly, models abroad also are technically heavier due to more electronic modules, rubber seals and motors. Things like heated seats, heated steering, sunroof, motorised hatch, GPS unit etc, small difference but nonetheless.

I'm in no way denying that European cars are better built, all I want is for people to not assume that everything else is a piece of tin trash. I am an owner of Hyundai and these guys have been having designers from BMW since 2007, also building the car prototypes in Russelsheim Germany. The gauge of steel used is from Hyundai's own plant and was certified to be on par with the other brands, also having steel reinforcement bars and safety protocol in the ECM. I'm a Hyundai owner, doesn't mean I am just another person with no knowledge of build quality and safety who booked a random car in a showroom. The Getz, i20, i30 and Santa Fe were praised for their build and glass thickness even by Germans. Indian models would be different very slightly but that applies to all makers.

There is no end to the debate of build quality and how much is too much/less? Latest BMW's blow up VW build quality to bits if I've to go deeper, due to its 50/50 weight distribution for balance and stability, 16 gauge RI panels, carbon fibre inputs and their typical long bonnet design (all gold standard of safety) combined with RFT to prevent blowouts. Glass, ABC pillars are fragile in all cars depending on force. Drivers must be careful first of all, atleast on their part as far as speeds go, as even the first Laura in India (with TCS/ESP/6 SRS/EBD) could not protect under high speeds by a drunk driver. My point is people buy and WILL buy Suzuki, Hyundai and Honda. Some because they just like the brands, some due to budget. I can write much more in detail but even I would think very, very long and hard before I conclude that no brands except Europeans are worth slapping 4 tyres on. Again I feel that each person should be left to his choice based on his needs. Weight/sheet metal thickness have less bearing on safety than do reinforcement bars and load absorbing frame.

Last edited by dark.knight : 14th May 2014 at 17:02.
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Old 14th May 2014, 17:05   #253
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Originally Posted by saket77 View Post
If one thinks that sitting in a Vento/Linea is equivalent of having elixir of life, then they are living in a false sense of security.
Owner of two Linea-s and a Palio speaking!

It is no 'elixir of life': anyone who thinks the car or bike he drives really makes any difference to the quality of his or his country's life is a fool, whether the car is from Italy, Germany, Japan, Korea or indeed, Pune.

But if one were to 'play the fool', as we all do on team-bhp: the experience of driving the Linea T-jet or indeed the good old Palio is of, let us just be polite and say: 'of a different order of magnitude', to any of the East Asian models that were or are available here.

Last edited by desdemona : 14th May 2014 at 17:06. Reason: error
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Old 14th May 2014, 17:34   #254
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Had some time to kill, hence just compiled a report for your viewing pleasure guys. I have put down some analysis and you are most welcome to pour in your views.

The below is the Crash Test information presented to you (Source: EuroNCAP - http://www.euroncap.com/) of major Japanese and European Cars. I know that the models available in India could be different, and we do not have crash test data of those but whatever I could compile, I am putting it down.

Japanese or European cars? Whats your pick in India?-safety.jpg


Now, if you look at the numbers in detail and in an unbiased way, a lot of myths are to be busted here. I don't see Japs to be lagging anywhere. In fact, here are my observations:

1. SX4 scores better in almost all the parameters than the Octavia, except in Adult safety by 1 percent.

2. 2012 Civic beats 2013 Octavia in almost all parameters except Child safety by 3%

3.Shockingly, Rapid 2012 out scores Octavia 2013 in all but child safety parameter.

4. Lowest point on adult safety is for Polo / Vento however, the rating is for 2009. Might have improved, please comment.

5.Civic 12 beats Jetta 2011 in all but Child safety parameter.

6. Also, see the table where the only cars lugging below the sample average are the European cars in Adult Safety except SX4, that too by a measly margin.

7. Only cars to fall short of the sample average in terms of pedestrian safety are European Cars

8. Only cars to score above average in 'Safety Assist' parameter are Suzuki SX4 & Honda Civic; ummm...both Japanese!

9. Skoda Fabia scores 4 stars.


Another case:

Now, another set of data just suggests me that Germany and Italy have a road fatality ratio of 8 people per 100000 vehicles. However, that ratio for Japan is substantially lower at 5 people per 1Lac Vehicles on road. Hence, road mortality is much lower in Japan, where I can safely assume that most cars on streets would be Japanese. Would like to add in the same breath that driving sanity plays a very important role in these figures than just the cars.

Here is the source of the information:http://www.internationaltransportfor...c/pdf/risk.pdf

Last edited by saket77 : 14th May 2014 at 17:38.
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Old 14th May 2014, 18:02   #255
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Default Re: Japanese or European cars? Whats your pick in India?

Having driven / owned European, American and Japanese cars, I'll just say that if you need a machine to get from point A to B with lowest cost per KM and without any dramatics, if the destination is important and the journey is the necessary hassle, go for Japanese.

However, if you need a almost living, breathing creature with character, if the journey is what you look forward to and the destination means and end to the fun, go for European or American.

Go European for nimble, agile creatures and American for the beasts.

Go Jap for seemingly reliable, dumb transporters. (Of course does not apply to my 15 Year old Zen )
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