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View Poll Results: Whats your pick?
European Cars 211 43.78%
Japanese Cars 219 45.44%
Others (Indian, Korean, American etc.) 22 4.56%
Prefer both equally 30 6.22%
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Old 14th May 2014, 22:59   #271
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Default Re: Japanese or European cars? Whats your pick in India?

I don't think the Japanese vs European really matters. It's based on car.

For example if you look at Toyota. The Etios is below par when it comes to sheet metal strength and you know it will fair poorly.

At the same time you have the Altis which for some reason is bloody solid. My 5 year old Altis has been scraped by a bus, countless 2 wheelers and got whacked by an automatic solid metal gate in a hotel. All these didn't even result in a dent and I mean not even a small dot type dent. The bonnet is unusually heavy to lift. So even though it is Japanese it has far superior sheet metal. The same can't be said about the Civic though.

Similarly my Lancer had some seriously thick sheet metal. It was almost euro feel.

Maruti, Hyundai and Honda can safely be generalized into thinner gauge sheet metal but that's not to say they are not safe. There's more to safety than sheet metal gauge. If it was just down to sheet metal the death rate for jap cars would be far higher. They are not like moving death beds as being made out by some here.

The more grave issue at hand is the lack of ABS and airbags whether european or Japanese or Korean. This needs to be addressed than the sheet metal.

Given the choice I would pick up a higher variant of a japanese car with abs/airbags than the middle/base variant of a euro car with no abs/airbags. This is usually the case with cars like the Vento/Rapid that don't get airbags in middle/base but have it only in top end trim but the Honda City gets it in all trims.
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Old 14th May 2014, 23:03   #272
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I have anyday felt more in control owning and driving budget European cars ( Palio 1.6, polo tsi) vs the Asian cousins ( City, i10) - touchwood, never had to test the crumple zones, but if the drive ain't hairy, chances of testing it out remains remote ... And I prefer it that way.
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Old 14th May 2014, 23:05   #273
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IshaanIan View Post
I could find references if you actually doubt me. Perhaps Suzuki does occasionally sell good products these days? While the Indian Swift may not be as safe as a Polo or Punto, preliminary global ncap test results said that it was comparably safe. I believe that all the new, global and also relatively premium Suzuki products, are actually good; Swift, Grand Vitara, SX4, Kizashi.
You won't catch me defending a Wagon R, Alto 800, Versa or Ertiga
I have already said this, more than once: I am NOT arguing ONLY about safety and repair-ability, I am arguing for the considerable overall-engineering superiority of the Europeans. Please re-read all my posts.

Indeed, that is what this thread is about, contrary to what the over-defensive fans of Japanese and Korean automotive genius here have been fixated on for 4 pages!

Last edited by desdemona : 14th May 2014 at 23:07.
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Old 14th May 2014, 23:23   #274
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Default Re: Japanese or European cars? Whats your pick in India?

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Originally Posted by desdemona View Post
I have already said this, more than once: I am NOT arguing ONLY about safety and repair-ability, I am arguing for the considerable overall-engineering superiority of the Europeans. Please re-read all my posts.

Indeed, that is what this thread is about, contrary to what the over-defensive fans of Japanese and Korean automotive genius here have been fixated on for 4 pages!
Well I am glad we have moved on then. Oh and yes, I still believe that these new Suzuki products again, the Swift, Grand Vitara, SX4 and Kizashi are all quite a good package overall. Maybe it is because they were designed keeping in mind developed markets. The Swift was designed as a nippy euro hatch, SX4 was again developed for the European market, infact both Suzuki and Fiat were surprised by the response they got for the product internationally, Grand Vitara was developed to carry on the Suzuki tradition of building compact, tough-as-nails off-roaders except designed to tackle the American compact SUV market. I can however see, that the products Suzuki develops for 3rd world markets like India and Indonesia are not the well-rounded packages they ought to be as 21st century offerings; Ertiga, Alto 800 etc

Last edited by IshaanIan : 14th May 2014 at 23:24.
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Old 14th May 2014, 23:43   #275
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Default Re: Japanese or European cars? Whats your pick in India?

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Originally Posted by supremeBaleno View Post
If the NCAP results compiled using proper crash tests is itself useless, then how much value should be given to random snaps posted of accident wrecks, where we have no info at all about the actual accident.

Over the key-board post-mortem of an accident using just a pic of the wreck is not only pointless, but also could provide a wrong sense of security to folks which could end up in trouble.
All I can say is that the in the case of the accidents involving the European cars, the occupants walked away free in most of accidents.

Yes, I do have no info on the how the actual accident happened but do you have any info on how the Japanese cars manufactured in India fare in a crash test? We have absolutely zero data on that!

Quote:
Originally Posted by saket77 View Post
Had some time to kill, hence just compiled a report for your viewing pleasure guys. I have put down some analysis and you are most welcome to pour in your views.

The below is the Crash Test information presented to you (Source: EuroNCAP - http://www.euroncap.com/) of major Japanese and European Cars. I know that the models available in India could be different, and we do not have crash test data of those but whatever I could compile, I am putting it down.
Thanks for the effort but unfortunately it doesnt help the debate as the Euro NCAP versions of the cars are not the same ones which are sold in India.

Quote:
Originally Posted by desdemona View Post
I have already said this, more than once: I am NOT arguing ONLY about safety and repair-ability, I am arguing for the considerable overall-engineering superiority of the Europeans. Please re-read all my posts.

Indeed, that is what this thread is about, contrary to what the over-defensive fans of Japanese and Korean automotive genius here have been fixated on for 4 pages!
Precisely the point mate. I still standby the statement that the Japanese cars sold in India dont handle well and dont fare well in the case of an accident. We have enough of proofs in the accidents thread to prove that.
However good a Japanese car in the Indian market might be in terms of reliability am not willing to stake my life in one since I believe my life is probably worth much better than a shitty car.

Last edited by JayKis : 14th May 2014 at 23:45.
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Old 14th May 2014, 23:56   #276
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Default Re: Japanese or European cars? Whats your pick in India?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JayKis View Post
All I can say is that the in the case of the accidents involving the European cars, the occupants walked away free in most of accidents.
That is because the euros were all top of the line variants which had Airbags,Seatbelt pretensioners,ABS & EBD and other safety aids. The occupants also helped themselves by buying such variants and buckling up.

All the other factors being discussed here(handling,braking,sheet metal etc etc) probably had a negligible role to play in such crashes.

To see how the Indian Swift fares in a crash test look here

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...ml#post3391506 (Indian Nano, Alto, Figo, i10 & Polo FAIL Global NCAP Safety Test)

Last edited by shashank.nk : 14th May 2014 at 23:58.
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Old 15th May 2014, 01:17   #277
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Default Re: Japanese or European cars? Whats your pick in India?

Guys,
I think Japs or European or American doesnt matter.
It varies from car to car and what checks all your requirement boxes.

I have three cars in my stable.
Automatic Civic, manual city and the diesel Ecosport checked all my boxes.

It is what you are looking for, that matters.
There is no wrong decision here.
Everyone buys what they think is best suited to them and they are right.
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Old 15th May 2014, 09:18   #278
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Default Re: Japanese or European cars? Whats your pick in India?

Quote:
Originally Posted by desdemona View Post
And why pray tell are there no such tests available? Who controls this marketplace? Answer: the gang of 3 East Asian firms + Mahindra. Why? Because of even well-informed and well-travelled buyers swearing by them with no small amounts of blind faith, numbering in millions.
Sorry, I don't buy in that reason. Why? Because Indian auto industry is not a monopolistic one, like it existed in the 70's and 80's. It is an open market and any car company is free to offer any amount of safety features.
I blame the ignorant people and an insensitive government for not mandating safety. Regulations are made for the the safety of people and here, the government is not interested and people tend to choose a stereo instead of ABS.
And regarding reliability, I owned a Santro for 8 years and have a Figo for 3 years. I never had any problems with the Santro, till I sold it this year and the reliability was nothing short of bullet-proof. The ride, handling, braking etc of the Figo never gave me any scope for complaints. But, the reliability has been nothing to talk about. Within this three years, I have replaced the thermostat assembly which was broken off, resulting in the draining out of the entire coolant, replaced the steering pump and hoses and even replaced the alternator. So, from my own personal experience, should I believe that Ford is more reliable than a Hyundai? Never if you ask me. So, in many cases, it is not just perception, but the actual experience that forms an opinion. If a person has opposite experience as mine, I will respect his opinion too.
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Originally Posted by desdemona View Post
So, a new Ford Fiesta sedan, a champion car, sells in single digits while a car as poorly executed as the Verna sells at 5000? A flimsy, cost-cut, very sub-par new Honda City sells at the record rate of 9000?!
Again, I would like to get the evidence of the allegation that you have made above. Flimsy, cost-cut, sub-par etc. Do we have a comparison like crash test data or something which tells that the City is not safe (Indian model)? If yes, I am glad to believe your claim. I would like to reiterate that I don't have a particular preference to any brand. I have European, American, Indian, Japanese and Korean cars in my family. Each one of them is different and the key thing for me is to understand the positives and negatives of the car which I drive.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vid6639 View Post
I don't think the Japanese vs European really matters. It's based on car.
Maruti, Hyundai and Honda can safely be generalized into thinner gauge sheet metal but that's not to say they are not safe. There's more to safety than sheet metal gauge.
Nicely consolidated Vidyut. This is the same thing I've been telling all through.
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Old 15th May 2014, 10:50   #279
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Default Re: Japanese or European cars? Whats your pick in India?

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Originally Posted by JayKis View Post
Thanks for the effort but unfortunately it doesnt help the debate as the Euro NCAP versions of the cars are not the same ones which are sold in India.
So, does that mean that the Japanese cars beat the Europeans in their own backyard? The report I compiled and posted on Page 17 suggests so.

Also, since it is established that most European cars are also stripped down versions of their original versions while some are in fact developed for Asian/ Indian market, how can one argue to have them to have the same level of safety? If Japanese cars sold in Europe are termed 'unsafe' in India as they are diluted, why the same would not apply to European cars, esp. when a lot of them are only developed for and sold in India/ Asia?
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Old 15th May 2014, 10:56   #280
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Default Re: Japanese or European cars? Whats your pick in India?

Quote:
Originally Posted by blacksport View Post
True, thicker sheet metal do not make a car safe. BUT, we cannot strip a car down to check how well it is built. For me, the way the body is built provides enough pointers to how the structure is built. A manufacturer willing to be miserly with the sheet metal is more likely to be miserly with the structure as well.
Actually the cost saving of using thinner metal is not much. You need precision tooling(for example ribbed roofs) etc., The thinner metal is to reduce weight and hence increase fuel efficiency.
Moreover, thinner metal means you have to engineer structures like ribs and arches in strategic locations to get structural integrity. With thick metal sheet you just plonk it there and it sits.
As technologies advance and material science also advances, the trend will be to use the thinnest sheet metal without compromising on the structural integrity of the car.
Moreover, rather than my layman observations, I would compare crash test scores to judge the structural integrity of the car
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Old 15th May 2014, 11:08   #281
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Default Re: Japanese or European cars? Whats your pick in India?

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Originally Posted by A350XWB View Post
Again, I would like to get the evidence of the allegation that you have made above. Flimsy, cost-cut, sub-par etc. Do we have a comparison like crash test data or something which tells that the City is not safe (Indian model)? If yes, I am glad to believe your claim.
In the absence of any testing system available in this part of the land, it is only convenient on your part to insist on only believing crash tests. The refusal to look at build quality, the refusal to look at crash evidences, the track record of Indo-Japanese manufacturers in dishing out under-engineered cars is preposterous. How could any one believe that under that ill-engineered, flimsy body lies some ingenious engineering that transforms a paper thin car to a safe one? As if, Europeans have thicker sheet metal only because they don't know how to manufacture a thinner one. Why would one believe that the Japanese would restrict cost-cutting to only sheet metal and plastics (visual aspects) but when it comes to what is underneath, they provide you some top notch stuff.

In my opinion, what could be seen betrays what lies underneath.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
As technologies advance and material science also advances, the trend will be to use the thinnest sheet metal without compromising on the structural integrity of the car.
I would have believed that, but evidence points elsewhere. Even Suzukis are increasingly moving to thicker sheet metal in cars sold in Europe.

Last edited by blacksport : 15th May 2014 at 11:13.
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Old 15th May 2014, 11:23   #282
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Default Re: Japanese or European cars? Whats your pick in India?

A peek at the Asean NCAT test reports tells me that the previous Generation Honda City is a much safer car than the Vento. The Vento scores 4 stars while the City bagged all 5 stars. Honda CRV was the another Honda to score 5 stars in the test. And all these cars are the Indian versions.

Hence, we can dismiss the 'thicker sheet metal' being equivalent to a safe car myth.
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Old 15th May 2014, 11:27   #283
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Default Re: Japanese or European cars? Whats your pick in India?

Quote:
Originally Posted by saket77 View Post
A peek at the Asean NCAT test reports tells me that the previous Generation Honda City is a much safer car than the Vento. The Vento scores 4 stars while the City bagged all 5 stars. Honda CRV was the another Honda to score 5 stars in the test. And all these cars are the Indian versions.

Hence, we can dismiss the 'thicker sheet metal' being equivalent to a safe car myth.
The 3rd gen City actually bagged 4 stars too. Note that the one which was awarded 5 stars, was equipped with an electronic stability program which entitled it to extra brownie points. It did however, score one point higher than the VW Vento in Adult Occupant Protection. So I suppose you are correct.
Are you sure that we get the same City here though?
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Old 15th May 2014, 11:34   #284
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Default Re: Japanese or European cars? Whats your pick in India?

Quote:
Originally Posted by desdemona
I have to simply repeat: these two cars out-handle, out-steer, out-brake, ou-grip and out-ride ALL of their Japanese and Korean competition. Throw in the far heftier build and what you get is the benchmark in the over-all quality of engineering.
LOL, I think you either need to do a lot more reading or a lot more driving. One of the main gripes against the Ikons, Fiestas were the poor brakes. More dangerous since the 1.6 engined petrols were a hoot to drive. So what was that about 'out-braking' again ?

And the first gripe listed in the official tbhp review of the EcoSport is "Hyundai-esque light electric steering" - so there goes the 'out-steer' part.
BTW hey, looks like they are copying the Koreans. Oh, that is just because the Koreans control the market and are forcing everyone to go for light ES. LOL !!!

And some years ago there used to be a feature on tbhp-portal where you could select a car (make, model) and get a drop-down that listed an at-a-glance features/cons of the car - collated from our own ownership reports. Don't know if it still exists, but if you selected Ford Fiesta then, one point that stood out was "parts tend to fall off". That must be the result of the hefty-build and "benchmark in engineering" that you are referring to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by desdemona
I will concede only that, as a corollary, they've set good standards on ASS, and to a degree reliability, that the Europeans are beginning to match in India.
LOL, reliability to a degree ? Man, if the Japs have set the benchmark for something, that is reliability and that is not disputed. And if you want to know how EU cars fare on reliability, do check out owner reports and also the 'special' thread we have on how low-bed tow-trucks would run out of business if not for the frequently failing EU cars.

Quote:
Originally Posted by desdemona
And why pray tell are there no such tests available? Who controls this marketplace? Answer: the gang of 3 East Asian firms + Mahindra.
There are lot of things wrong in our country in various facets, but nothing could be more illogical than shifting the blame for lack of policy/regulation from lawmakers to the manufacturers. What you say is as hilarious as someone saying that the Hindi film industry is what it is because of the big 3 Khans controlling it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by desdemona
I have driven the Punto and the Ford Fiesta (previous two generations) in the UK, and have confirmed this several times from Fiat India engineers I have had the occasion to interact with: the Indian Punto is the SAME car as the Euro one, except for the use of cheaper materials in the interiors, and a torsion beam in the rear suspension.
Again more info on dilution / cheaper stuff. Thanks, keep them coming.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blacksport
Instead of comparing one fiat to another, pick a proper maruti. Why dont you compare the baleno to the linea?
Interesting to see the SX4 manufactured/sold/serviced in India by MSIL being called a Fiat. LOL. The Baleno and Linea are cars from different times and thus cannot be compared. The SX4 being the Baleno replacement should be compared with the Linea and they fare well as seen from figures posted earlier.

Last edited by supremeBaleno : 15th May 2014 at 11:35.
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Old 15th May 2014, 11:44   #285
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Originally Posted by IshaanIan View Post
The 3rd gen City actually bagged 4 stars too. Note that the one which was awarded 5 stars, was equipped with an electronic stability program which entitled it to extra brownie points. It did however, score one point higher than the VW Vento in Adult Occupant Protection. So I suppose you are correct.
Are you sure that we get the same City here though?
If you go through this link(http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...y-test-17.html (Indian Nano, Alto, Figo, i10 & Polo FAIL Global NCAP Safety Test)), it says, the 'Cars relevant to India' were tested. Hence, it should be the Indian City. Looks like the 3rd generation City to me in the crash picture, and has bagged 5 stars!

My point is that the thicker sheet metal is simply not a pointer to a safe car. A rigid, modern chassis which can distribute the impact force evenly with least forces transferred to the passengers directly is a safe car. Certainly not defending an Alto either, but just because a car has thinner metal panels, we should not dismiss them as unsafe.

Else tell me that how a Polo & a Figo both scored 0 in the NCAP along with other Indian cars? It was only after the airbags, the Polo fared better? So, without airbags, Polo is just as safe (or unsafe) as the Nano, Alto, & i10!

Last edited by saket77 : 15th May 2014 at 11:57.
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