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Old 23rd January 2016, 14:00   #31
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Default Re: Mahindra Scorpio & XUV500 get new 1.99L mHawk diesel engine

While that was a quick fix by M&M, squeezing 140 BHP out of a 2.0 L diesel is not as difficult as it sounds. Note that I haven't taken into account the tractability ,FE, lag and host of other factors but just the power figure.
VW gets up to 168 BHP in their Indian iterations from an engine with similiar displacement. No need to tell about BMW.
The existing 2.2 L can be tuned far more than 150 BHP = read in the likes of Mercedes 2.2L and Hyundai Santa Fe 2.2L.
Regarding changes in FE , I remember having read in a ford ecoboost related thread that downsizing doesn't have much of gain in FE if bigger turbo is employed and tuned for same power & torque output. Eg: 1.0L ecoboost.
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Old 23rd January 2016, 15:19   #32
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Default Re: Mahindra Scorpio & XUV500 get new 1.99L mHawk diesel engine

While I'm in principal not to judge decisions of the apex court, however by acting as an executive instead of a judiciary they goofed up their integrity big time.

The decision on banning or charging congestion should be based on emissions and not capacity, logically speaking.

Odd/Even scheme is not bad but then the impact is only on 15-20% of the vehicles, that kind of doesn't do as much as needed.

(The stats may not be accurate)
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Old 23rd January 2016, 15:35   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amitc7 View Post
.
The decision on banning or charging congestion should be based on emissions and not capacity, logically speaking.

(The stats may not be accurate)

Forgiving my ignorance, doesn't higher engine capacity vehicles produce more emissions?
Also another thing intriguing me is, don't the sales of sub 4 metre increase with excise cuts thereby reducing the number of people who thought of buying little bigger vehicles for them? Doesn't that reduce traffic jam times, parking space needs etc? I mean 4 sub 4m vehicles can be accommodated in place of 3 bigger vehicles ? So, isn't the govt. steps really a bit useful,though not of much a benefit?

Last edited by .anshuman : 24th February 2016 at 12:42. Reason: Removed unnecessary spaces from the quotes. Thanks
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Old 23rd January 2016, 15:42   #34
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Default Re: Mahindra Scorpio & XUV500 get new 1.99L mHawk diesel engine

Quote:
Originally Posted by amitc7 View Post
While I'm in principal not to judge decisions of the apex court, however by acting as an executive instead of a judiciary they goofed up their integrity big time.

The decision on banning or charging congestion should be based on emissions and not capacity, logically speaking.
AFAIK, the apex court has not given the judgement by themselves, on their own. There have been some petitions and the judgement has been given in response to these petitions. I guess that they have complied with the constitution while arriving at the judgement. So, I won't say they are acting beyond their limits.

I guess that the petitioners would have given some reason behind engine capacity basis (and not on the basis of emission). Let us try to get the petition details and post it on the forum.

Last edited by Rahul Bhalgat : 23rd January 2016 at 15:48.
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Old 23rd January 2016, 15:55   #35
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Not necessarily, engine design plays a lot into emissions - i could go one a techno babble, but to keep it simple, lets see the following scenarios:

1) a 1.5 ton car with a 1.3l engine will have greater emissions due to load factors, then lets say a 2 ton car with a 2L engine

2) a well designed lean burn motor will have better emissions then a 1960's design 1.5l tractor lump

3) a 320D unit has only 99gm CO2 but the fiat 1.3l unit has a CO2 output of 138 gm

I hope my point is conveyed, else i would be happy to get into details

Regards to the length of vehicle issue i can appreciate, they have the same in Japan for ages called Kei cars.

But then, just a 16% excise or something difference will not discourage much would it? It has to be at least 50-60% higher taxes to make any pressure to adopt these chopped bum cars

Pardon my ignorance if I'm wrong, but as informed by a few SC lawyers and a distinguished appellate court retired judge have i quoted the above.

The 2000cc limit was not imposed by the government, but a decision by the court, hence my discontent.

In any case a court cannot decide the capacity or size or parameter they can only rule on the guilt or innocence and the penance.

Banning is an executive order it must be by the government through the legislative assembly or parliament.

I hope the point i made is clear and without malicious intent

Yes Rahul it would be helpful if we can post the entire judgement to appease both our concerns

Note from Support: Back to back posts merged. Please edit your previous post within the 30 minute edit window to add contents to it.

Last edited by Gannu_1 : 23rd January 2016 at 21:35. Reason: Please read the note posted above. Thanks!
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Old 23rd January 2016, 16:24   #36
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Default Re: Mahindra Scorpio & XUV500 get new 1.99L mHawk diesel engine

I guess they must be developing this engine for quite a while and not specifically for the current situation dealing with sub 2000cc SUVs in Delhi.

They must have speed up the development process.

Might be a new car from Mahindra with sub 2000cc diesel engine be coming.
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Old 24th January 2016, 12:03   #37
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Default Re: Mahindra Scorpio & XUV500 get new 1.99L mHawk diesel engine

Great move by Mahindra to keep the sales going in Delhi NCR.
with time will they altogether replace the 2.2L engine or will they introduce a seperate category. Any insights on that?
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Old 24th January 2016, 12:46   #38
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Default Re: Mahindra Scorpio & XUV500 get new 1.99L mHawk diesel engine

Has there been a price reduction? Do the lower engine spec variants come at a lower cost too? If they re launch the 2.2 engine in the XUV again in NCR then will it sell at the same price as the 1.9 or at a premium over the earlier pricing?
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Old 24th January 2016, 13:58   #39
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Default Re: Mahindra Scorpio & XUV500 get new 1.99L mHawk diesel engine

One of my friend visited Mahindra showroom this morning to check out XUV500 and the news is that Mahindra will not be keeping both the engines. It will be 1.99L in future and there will be no reduction in cost as well.
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Old 25th January 2016, 14:23   #40
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Default Re: Mahindra Scorpio & XUV500 get new 1.99L mHawk diesel engine

Quote:
Originally Posted by printh View Post
The existing 2.2 L can be tuned far more than 150 BHP = read in the likes of Mercedes 2.2L and Hyundai Santa Fe 2.2L.
It can, but there are also additional costs. You need a gearbox capable of handling the power & torque, stronger axles, a beefier clutch etc. Then, there's the question of how much the fuel economy will be hit, will the engine life be reduced due to higher stress and most of all, can the Scorpio take the additional power? It's hardly a handler.

Manufacturers will usually set the power output to whatever the segment standards are.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amitc7 View Post
a 320D unit has only 99gm CO2 but the fiat 1.3l unit has a CO2 output of 138 gm
I see what you are saying and agree with the thought in principle. However, the 320d pollutes lesser because it is an expensive car in which BMW has the financial leeway to install a high-tech exhaust system.

Remember the VW emissions scam? They couldn't figure out a cost-effective solution at the Jetta's price point and decided to cheat.
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Old 25th January 2016, 14:55   #41
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Default Re: Mahindra Scorpio & XUV500 get new 1.99L mHawk diesel engine

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post

I see what you are saying and agree with the thought in principle. However, the 320d pollutes lesser because it is an expensive car in which BMW has the financial leeway to install a high-tech exhaust system.

Remember the VW emissions scam? They couldn't figure out a cost-effective solution at the Jetta's price point and decided to cheat.
I agree about the cost factor no doubt and also the development funds available to large manufacturers, that notwithstanding an XUV or a top end Scorpio is not cheap and at that price point emissions can be achieved. It's not only the exhaust system, you have to factor in the fuel quality, injector efficiency, thermal characteristics of the engine components, turbo efficiency, ancillary systems and exhaust.

Our fuel quality is nowhere close to standards that can support Euro IV let alone Euro VI, so we need the infrastructure to support the standards before we start some witch hunt.

More relevant to my quote there are small engines by Peugoet/Citroen and also Renault that meet Euro 6 emissions on reletively cheap cars around the Baleno/Polo price point.

In VW's case i condone what they did, but California norms are nearly impossible to be met by budget or mid range saloons, only the higher end Merc and BMW models are able to meet it with assisted urea injection systems at cost of $2-3000 per unit.
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Old 25th January 2016, 15:02   #42
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Default Re: Mahindra Scorpio & XUV500 get new 1.99L mHawk diesel engine

This was rather fast reaction which is great but I guess Mahindra would have this engine in development for sometime. It takes a lot of design and qualify a product and can't be just plonked in without doing enough testing. but good timing for Mahindra to ensure they dont lose out on sails from NCR esp if the ban continues. However I dont know underwhat premise will courts extend the ban given that the pollution didnt improve much either even with even/odd formula.
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Old 10th February 2016, 21:58   #43
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Post Re: Mahindra Scorpio & XUV500 get new 1.99L mHawk diesel engine

As expected, engine has been downsized by reducing the stroke. Down to 88mm from the original 96mm of the 2.2L engine. New engine is 1997cc and the power output remains the same.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tharian View Post
Does the Torque figures remain the same too?
330nm for XUV and 280nm for Scorpio.
Torque output takes a hit though. Down by 10Nm to 320Nm on the XUV.

Screenshot of type approval:
Mahindra Scorpio & XUV500 get new 1.99L mHawk diesel engine-0001.jpg
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Old 23rd February 2016, 17:50   #44
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Default Re: Mahindra Scorpio & XUV500 get new 1.99L mHawk diesel engine

Quite a response from M&M. Since the development started quite sometime ago, it was probably not that difficult for them to launch the downsized version in such a time frame. The interesting thing to ponder is how it all started at their end in this direction such a long time ago. Not sure whether it was guided by any potential 1.9 L based product development or pure anticipation, in which case it is probably nothing sort of telepathy! Looking back now, the reaction from M&M top brass in response to the 2000 cc+ ban looks quite cohesive.
"I have always believed that the Supreme Court is an institution that sustains our faith in social justice and democracy in India,” Mahindra said. “So even if we believe the decision on diesel vehicles isn’t optimal, we’ll honour it and develop vehicles that comply with their stipulations.”
Now, like few others, i do also have concern about the initial batches of production post this development as M&M is 'in'famous for the niggles in newer products. Also, may be its just me, but looks like the ban on 2000cc+ diesel vehicles is going to be long term and may be extended beyond NCR in phases.
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Old 25th February 2016, 14:02   #45
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Default Re: Mahindra Scorpio & XUV500 get new 1.99L mHawk diesel engine

As I assume, the 2.0 ltr plus, ban applicable on registration of new vehicles only. It must still be possible to buy/sell already registered SUVs. From a sellers perspective, does this help resale value of DL registered SUVs to be moved slightly upwards? Could Delhi guys throw some light on this?
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