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Old 22nd October 2016, 17:44   #1246
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Default Re: Tata Hexa @ Auto Expo 2016

Quote:
Originally Posted by PrasannaDhana View Post
The load ranges from 500-750kg, plus 2 adults and the already obese Safari's weight. It hauls 3 tonnes totally, without a fuss. I don't experience even a slight change in the way it drives or performs.
No offence pal, but if you are saying that it drives & performs the same with a whopping 850 - 900 additional kilos (750 kg + 2 passengers), you honestly don't know what to look for. That is almost 40% of the SUV's kerb weight added to it!

Any car with this kind of load will handle poorer, accelerate slower, brake longer and (most cars) ride poorer.

I also hope you are staying with the Safari's rated GVW.

Let's keep it real and factual on this forum. Let's refrain from ridiculous statements.

Last edited by GTO : 22nd October 2016 at 17:52.
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Old 22nd October 2016, 17:46   #1247
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Default Re: Tata Hexa @ Auto Expo 2016

Anyone can see they've built a very competitive product. I really only care about the warranty they offer. And I believe we, as a community of auto-enthusiasts, should understand that their commitment to the product should be the primary, and the price should actually be secondary.

Tell me, if their commitment to the product is secondary, won't the premium saved during purchase be lost during resale ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mkaysaw View Post
Looks like a great effort by Tata. As mentioned by everyone, pricing would be key. Sidenote: Did they straight-up use the gear levers from 07 / 09 Range Rovers? Wonder what other components from JLR they used?
Also, if they could market the use of common Daimler upholsterers, why not market the use of common JLR parts?
Quote:
Originally Posted by SnS_12 View Post
A Tata user would smile ear to ear while telling his friends that his Hexa has parts, which are/were useld on JLR products. Won't be the case when a Land Rover user is asked by his friends about the usage of parts on LR being used on the Hexa.
lol At NO time will they share parts or anything in operations. This was confirmed by the MD himself when I met him 3 years back.

See, Tata would start with adopting the functional changes at the most deepest level, say e.g. making a stiffer frame & using higher strength steel at specific sections & yet stay lighter (remember how Ford used Boron steel in some sections of EcoSport ?).

Similarly there are many many small parts (it can be something as basic as an engine mount or seat bolts) that have their design such that it functions better & lasts longer while functioning smoothly with low chances of developing a flaw.

A car is very much like a watch, if you get what I mean.

But to assure you, many such elements of design philosophy & principles that go into building a Land Rover will eventually trickle down over a period of time.

Last edited by GrammarNazi : 22nd October 2016 at 18:16.
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Old 22nd October 2016, 17:47   #1248
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Source: https://www.motorscribes.com/reviews...ing-boundaries

Quote:
"For anyone considering a Mahindra XUV 500 or a Toyota Innova Crysta or even a sedan in that price range (Rs 12-17 lakh, ex-showroom estimated), you'll be missing out on a lot if you keep holding prejudice against Tata Motors and leave the Hexa out. Yes, we did mention Toyota; a Japanese brand. Yes, we did mention sedans in that category which include European and American brands as well. Which finally brings us to the first question that we started with; is the Tata Hexa an SUV or a people mover? The answer is; neither. The Hexa is a car that crosses over; one that drives and feels like a sedan, has the capabilities of an SUV and seats enough to carry 6-7 people with two adults in relative comfort on the third row and 128 litres still to spare in the boot. If it isn't too much to claim, here's a parting comment; with the Hexa, Tata Motors has managed to build a Land Rover on a budget. That's some food for thought, isn't it?"
Dr. Timothy A Leverton, Head & Advanced and Product Engineering, Tata Motors for a quick chat about the Hexa. Here's what he had to say. Oh, and for the uninitiated, Tim was on the team that still holds the World diesel-powered land speed record with the JCB DieselMax!


Last edited by GTO : 23rd October 2016 at 18:26. Reason: Removing formatting errors. Please check before posting :). Thanks!
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Old 22nd October 2016, 17:50   #1249
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Default Re: Tata Hexa @ Auto Expo 2016

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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
No offence pal, but if you are saying that it drives & performs the same with a whopping 850 - 900 additional kilos (750 kg + 2 passengers), you honestly don't know what to look for. That is almost 40% of the SUV's kerb weight added to it!

Any car with this kind of load will handle poorer, accelerate slower, brake longer and (most cars) ride poorer.

I also hope you are staying with the Safari's rated GVW.
No offence too, I do know exactly what I speak of. On paper, there may be a difference. In reality, it isn't tangible enough to be a worry. It cruises at 120kmph like always, even at load. Braking distance is slightly longer but ride/handling is the same. Acceleration does not see a noticeable dip.
Perhaps, one needs to experience it before coming to conclusions.

A truck is a truck, not a hatchback to get bogged down by extra weight. Please ask any innova owner if he feels a difference while driving solo vs driving with 8 people in it. It rarely shows.

It will be of concern if you are looking at 0-100 times and quarter mile times, but I don't think Hexa owners have that in their requirements at all.
Anyways my point was to convey that 2.2 tonne weight cannot be a deal breaker for the Hexa..

Last edited by PrasannaDhana : 22nd October 2016 at 18:05.
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Old 22nd October 2016, 18:53   #1250
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Default Re: Tata Hexa @ Auto Expo 2016

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Originally Posted by RavenAvi View Post
Taking the technical specifications a segment upwards - comparison between the Tata Hexa, Mahindra XUV500, Toyota Innova Crysta, Ford Endeavour and the upcoming Toyota Fortuner.
If the specifications are correct, towards the warranty terms, Hexa has the best of offer - 3Y @ 1.5L Km. Not speaking about the extended warranty, as we perhaps would not have much info.

I have 2 questions on the headlamps.

1. How is the throw on the Hexa & does is warrant any mods for better throw??
2. Is there any smoked headlamp?? I felt there was one in the side corners. I could be wrong, we do not have a pic of the headlamps - do we??

In the second row, is it right to assume that the bucket seats will have better thigh support than the bench ones?? What will be the pro's & con's between bucket & bench seats in second row.

Last edited by m3_07 : 22nd October 2016 at 18:57. Reason: typo
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Old 22nd October 2016, 19:25   #1251
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Default Re: Tata Hexa @ Auto Expo 2016

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Any car with this kind of load will handle poorer, accelerate slower, brake longer and (most cars) ride poorer.

Let's keep it real and factual on this forum. Let's refrain from ridiculous statements.
I am not sure about 900kgs, but I felt absolutely no difference in driving my Storme alone and with seven adults on board. In fact, I am new to Safari and was really surprised by this experience.
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Old 22nd October 2016, 19:52   #1252
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Default Re: Tata Hexa @ Auto Expo 2016

MotoTown review



MotorOctane review



Overall Hexa seems to be the best product Tata Motors has ever produced. Great on features and practicality. Most sites seems to have given it a thumbs up on the product front. Though automatic transmission seems to be the clear winner. Price will be a key factor which we will know only in Jan 2017. But clearly, Tata Motors has a winner on hand.

Last edited by damager21 : 22nd October 2016 at 19:54.
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Old 22nd October 2016, 20:11   #1253
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Default Re: Tata Hexa @ Auto Expo 2016

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Originally Posted by cogWheel View Post
I wonder if the drive modes also bias the forward-rear torque distribution (in the 4x4 variants at least)? Or is the on-demand torque distribution completely independent of drive mode selected?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vid6639 View Post
- Only the MT gets an option to choose from various driving modes via a rotary knob placed in front of the gear lever. The driving modes are Auto, Comfort, Dynamic and Rough Road. Comfort and Dynamic are 2WD modes. Comfort uses a less aggressive map vs. Dynamic. Dynamic sharpens the throttle response as well as brakes and relaxes the ESP to kick in much later. Rough Road engages the AWD system and changes the ESP settings for a bit of offroading.
Answering my own question posted here a few days ago, it now seems clear that the Rough Road and Auto Drive modes do involve forward-rear torque redistribution.
This would mean that the selectable drive modes would be available only in the 4x4 variants, i.e. as of now only in the 4x4 MT variant. It remains to be seen whether the drive modes would be offered on the 4x4 AT variant if and when it is introduced.
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Old 22nd October 2016, 20:23   #1254
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Default Re: Tata Hexa @ Auto Expo 2016

Quote:
Originally Posted by PrasannaDhana View Post
Acceleration does not see a noticeable dip.
I don't have the Safari Dicor's specs in front of me, but IIRC, the power to weight is in the range of ~60 BHP / Ton. With 900 kilos onboard, it'll go under 40 BHP / Ton. Buddy, I suggest you get a G-Tech Pro (excellent device) and time your 0 - 80 or 0 - 100 in both conditions. I won't even have to explain then.

Quote:
Perhaps, one needs to experience it before coming to conclusions.
I drive about 50 cars a year under every possible driving condition one can think of (and more), with & without load. Trust me, I can explain in the minutest detail how different an SUV can feel with or without 750 - 900 kilos. Like I said earlier, it'll affect your performance, braking, handling and (many cars) the ride quality.

Quote:
A truck is a truck, not a hatchback to get bogged down by extra weight.
It's physics, not the bodystyle we're talking about here. Weight penalises, no matter whether you are talking about a truck or a Volvo B9R (which is a TRUCK BTW). Leave aside a small truck, I've driven a 407 with & without load. The difference was enormous.

Quote:
Anyways my point was to convey that 2.2 tonne weight cannot be a deal breaker for the Hexa..
I don't say it's a deal breaker. However, the weight isn't a 'deal maker' either. Fact is, the more the weight, the lesser your performance, the lower your fuel efficiency, the harder the mechanicals have to work (e.g. tyre wear will be quicker, all things being the same) etc. etc. Weight will also bog you down when offroading (imperative to an AWD).

Weight is a disadvantage, not an advantage. And anyone who says that additional weight doesn't affect anything is just kidding himself.

P.S. I just checked and with 850 - 900 kilos of additional load, you are exceeding the Safari's GVW. That is outright dangerous. Even Tata agrees that you shouldn't be doing it. Please avoid that in the interest of your safety and that of other road users around you.

Last edited by GTO : 22nd October 2016 at 20:28. Reason: P.S. Adding point on GVW
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Old 22nd October 2016, 20:50   #1255
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Default Re: Tata Hexa @ Auto Expo 2016

In addition, each axle would have a maximum weight rating. Safari's rear axle was rated for 1.6 tons. Not sure, if the hexa would come with a beefed up rear axle.
Being an AWD and targeted at avid travelers, with such high kerb weight, there is very little room left for loading.

PS: All said and done, this is one brilliant car from TATA and i sincerely hope this does really well in the market.

Last edited by starter : 22nd October 2016 at 21:09.
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Old 22nd October 2016, 20:55   #1256
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Default Re: Tata Hexa @ Auto Expo 2016

Quote:
Originally Posted by PrasannaDhana View Post
On paper, there may be a difference. In reality, it isn't tangible enough to be a worry. It cruises at 120kmph like always, even at load. Braking distance is slightly longer but ride/handling is the same. Acceleration does not see a noticeable dip.
.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
I don't have the Safari Dicor's specs in front of me, but IIRC, the power to weight is in the range of ~60 BHP / Ton. With 900 kilos onboard, it'll go under 40 BHP / Ton. Buddy, I suggest you get a G-Tech Pro (excellent device) and time your 0 - 80 or 0 - 100 in both conditions.
This is a case where -

1) GTO is 100% right (he has physics on his side, sorry Prasanna)
2) PrasannaDhanna is not totally wrong

If somebody has the habit of accelerating steadily and drives in conditions where sudden braking is rarely required (Example: relatively empty semi-urban/rural areas), then the drop in performance might not be noticed by driver. Seat-of-the-pants analysis might give an impression that there is no difference in performance because of the extra weight.
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Old 22nd October 2016, 20:58   #1257
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Default Re: Tata Hexa @ Auto Expo 2016

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Originally Posted by rkg View Post
Remove the third row head rest, it folds flatly. I have ARIA, it is same and it folds fully and flatly. Even the second row also. Cup holders have nothing to do with folding of seats.
I see. The Autocar review claims it was the side panel with the cupholder that was fouling with the seat. Hopefully, you are right.
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Old 22nd October 2016, 21:33   #1258
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Default Re: Tata Hexa @ Auto Expo 2016

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Buddy, I suggest you get a G-Tech Pro (excellent device) and time your 0 - 80 or 0 - 100 in both conditions. I won't even have to explain then.
I am talking from the perspective of customer requirements rather than on pure physics.

A safari/Hexa/Crysta/XUV owner is not after off-the-line acceleration and drag strip performances. Still @ 12.8s to a ton, hexa is faster than a Baleno diesel.


Quote:
I drive about 50 cars a year under every possible driving condition one can think of (and more), with & without load.
Undeniable fact! Totally respect your experience. I think you will not disagree when I say driving a car for a day or a week is different from living with it. My discussion of concern is Tata's 2.2L SUVs, and since I own one, I quoted it as an example.

From a prospective owner's point of view, extra load/weight of the Hexa is not a big issue to be afraid of. The car, is no way going to feel underpowered or slow. This is what I want to stress.



Quote:
It's physics, not the bodystyle we're talking about here. Weight penalises, no matter whether you are talking about a truck or a Volvo B9R (which is a TRUCK BTW). Leave aside a small truck, I've driven a 407 with & without load. The difference was enormous.
Everything is physics, agreed. I am not talking about bodystyle differences, but the weight : load ratio.

Say a 407 is 2.5 tonnes heavy, and has a payload capacity of 2.5 tonnes. So if you drive an unloaded 407 and a fully loaded 407(100% of vehicle's weight), it is natural to see a huge difference.

I quoted hatchback because, a solo driven baleno and a baleno with 5 people and luggage (450 kg, ie more than 50% of its vehicle weight) will show a lot of difference in performance when compared to a solo driven safari and a safari with 7 people with luggage (600 kg ie 30% of vehicle weight). Now some may not understand what weight of a car has to do here. Manufacturers plonk bigger mills to their heavier cars(Ertiga vs dzire).
Imagine power:weight ratio for a 150% heavy Baleno vs 130% loaded Safari, Safari's ratio gets a hit from 70bhp/tonne to 54bhp/tonne while baleno's ratio gets a hit from 82bhp/tonne to 57bhp/tonne. Hence lesser difference is felt in a safari than baleno



Quote:
I don't say it's a deal breaker. However, the weight isn't a 'deal maker' either. Fact is, the more the weight, the lesser your performance, the lower your fuel efficiency, the harder the mechanicals have to work (e.g. tyre wear will be quicker, all things being the same) etc. etc. Weight will also bog you down when offroading (imperative to an AWD).


Weight is a disadvantage, not an advantage. And anyone who says that additional weight doesn't affect anything is just kidding himself.

Couldnt agree more. I am also a manufacturing engineer and I can understand how much weight reduction means. We have been praised if we can reduce weight of a component by even 20g. But then, Tata's R&D would have definitely discussed and worked through the hefty weight issue. Either an expensive process planning change/material selection change would have been required, and they chose to ignore the weight issue as it can not be a deal breaker.

Even though weight is bad, I would not feel as safe in a light car as I would in a heavy Tata. I can tell you the difference in perceiveable safety(doesnt mean anything on real life accidents/crash tests) while being seated in my solid Safari vs in my tinny Ciaz.

To sum it up, there are so many comments in this thread that paints a picture as though Hexa is the only Tata SUV/MUV that is heavy. A lot of people can assume it to be slow, under-performing and may refrain from even considering the car.

Quote:
P.S. I just checked and with 850 - 900 kilos of additional load, you are exceeding the Safari's GVW. That is outright dangerous. Even Tata agrees that you shouldn't be doing it. Please avoid that in the interest of your safety and that of other road users around you.

I usually load a max of 500kg, very rarely more than that. The GVW 2.75 tonnes is never really exceeded except for a couple of times in all the 4 years of ownership, that too for just 5 km.

Last edited by PrasannaDhana : 22nd October 2016 at 21:53.
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Old 22nd October 2016, 21:37   #1259
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Default Re: Tata Hexa @ Auto Expo 2016

I am one of those people who has been following up very closely with this long, too long really and arduous journey that the Hexa has taken since the 2014 Geneva show. I am also one of those people (and there are a ton of us on this forum and without) who roots for Tata and is frustrated at what we armchair quarterbacks have seen as Tata not learning from mistakes, pushing lemons after lemons and generally being the opposite of the intent they shows in 1998 when they showcased the Indica and shook up Maruti big time out of their slumber.

This car should have been launched the day after the 2016 Auto Expo if not earlier. If Tata was not ready to launch it, then they should have exercised some self control and refrained from showcasing a product 2.5 years before launch.

I really want this car to do well and we know that there is a huge market for this segment. Just the Innova + XUV accounts for 10,000 units per month which is huge.

That said, recent leaks and the interview with Girish Wagh below instills zero confidence that Tata has learnt anything from the Aria debacle. They are not showing any intent to learn to walk before running. All this talk of premium and high end and flagship and humanity line and broad shoulders etc is indicating that they do not intend a shock price (on the lower side). My sense is that it is going to be priced a shade above the XUV which would make it dead on arrival with 3 digits and month looking challenging.

In my opinion, there is only one thing which would enable Tata to overcome their baggage which is pricing - even if it is introductory. If Tata does not learn their pricing lessons then we will be seeing articles on Team-BHP on why this very good card failed about a year out.

I am wishing and hoping that either Tata proves me wrong by good pricing from the get go or the Indian consumer proves me wrong by buying a Tata car with premium pricing because it is a good product.
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Old 22nd October 2016, 22:58   #1260
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Default Re: Tata Hexa @ Auto Expo 2016

Quote:
Originally Posted by PrasannaDhana View Post
I think we are going overboard with 2.2 tonne weight being a negative when it comes to performance, handling and efficiency.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
No offence pal, but if you are saying that it drives & performs the same with a whopping 850 - 900 additional kilos (750 kg + 2 passengers), you honestly don't know what to look for. That is almost 40% of the SUV's kerb weight added to it!
Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
I don't have the Safari Dicor's specs in front of me, but IIRC, the power to weight is in the range of ~60 BHP / Ton. With 900 kilos onboard, it'll go under 40 BHP / Ton.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR View Post
Oh boy! TATA needs to lose weight. Hexa has 2280kgs of it!

This means it has lower power to weight (68.4bhp/ton) , and torque to weight (175.4 Nm/ton) figures than Innova 2.2 and XUV 5OO, weighing 1805 kg and 1865kg respectively. There goes the Varicor 400 advantage.

Innova 2.8 AT is way ahead in these parameters.
GTO is correct. So was CrAzY dRiVeR, a few pages back.

For reference, here's the clarification:

(CLICK on the image to OPEN in a *NEW* window)
Tata Hexa @ Auto Expo 2016-untitled.jpg

As we can see, the Hexa has the least power/ton ratio in this line-up. It's also second-best in the torque/ton ratio too, but only just above the 2.2L Endeavour.

Add 6 healthy, well-fed adults to the kerb weight of the Hexa, and we are talking about a gross weight near the 2.8-2.9 ton mark, which would bring the power-to-weight & torque-to-weight ratios even further down. This doesn't mean that casual driveability and normal, everyday performance is bad, but it means that for an aggressive driver or for an enthusiast, the Hexa might not end up as a first choice.

The Toyotas are leading the pack here, unsurprisingly. And no wonder the Fortuner is so eagerly awaited (besides the resale value & reliability associated with it).


Quote:
Originally Posted by smartcat View Post
If somebody has the habit of accelerating steadily and drives in conditions where sudden braking is rarely required (Example: relatively empty semi-urban/rural areas), then the drop in performance might not be noticed by driver. Seat-of-the-pants analysis might give an impression that there is no difference in performance because of the extra weight.
+1.

This would not bring about any noticeable change to casual drivers and highway cruisers who stick to the 90-100 kmph speeds, but enthusiasts who prefer performance over everything else will definitely be taking a close look at the 0-60 kmph & the 0-100 kmph timings here.

As for other factors, fuel efficiency, braking and instant in-gear acceleration will definitely be affected. Proportionately, more of the load, lesser of these listed.

But mass-market customers are not bothered about such things. I doubt any of this will be a telling, deal-breaking factor for the next-door family guy/chauffeured MNC executive who walks into the Tata showroom to evaluate the Hexa as a possible contender for his needs.

Last edited by RavenAvi : 22nd October 2016 at 23:01.
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