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Old 17th March 2016, 16:16   #151
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Default Re: Out-of-state cars can run on Karnataka roads for 1 year!

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Originally Posted by poloman View Post
This is a matter of tax evasion nothing else.
Strange that the judge didn't agree, is it?

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Therefore, a lifetime tax [...] cannot be levied on a vehicle that is already registered, merely on a presumption that a vehicle registered outside the State of Karnataka has remained in the State of Karnataka for a period exceeding thirty days. [...] The State Legislature does not have the legislative competence to do so.
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Old 17th March 2016, 16:22   #152
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Default Re: Out-of-state cars can run on Karnataka roads for 1 year!

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Originally Posted by poloman View Post
But if you look around the realities are totally different. Areas like Whitefield are flooded with cars from other states. It is of anyone's guess how many of them are genuinely here for less than 1 year and how many of them have paid their road tax...

This hypocrisy is what is being questioned here.
The fact is that there will always be some to question every decision in the world. So you are suggesting that just because you can't be sure of how many of these out of state registered cars are here for less than a year you should simply kill the problem by bludgeoning everyone with a blunt rod? Is that your solution?

The decision to impose a life tax within 30 days of arrival in the state was something similar. There is a Central MV Act that lays down the foundation. If that says that irrespective of anything any vehicle needs to re-register within 12 months of being in a different state then that becomes the guiding principle. If that sounds wrong then there is a logical way to redefine that. However, just because I don't like your law I will create my own is not a solution. If that starts happening then soon this country will be ruled by despots who will not agree to "some constitution written somewhere" that gives you certain liberties. They will have their own constitution for their subjects.

Not a very bright prospect that, now is it?

Last edited by Zappo : 17th March 2016 at 16:23.
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Old 17th March 2016, 16:22   #153
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Default Re: Out-of-state cars can run on Karnataka roads for 1 year!

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Originally Posted by binand View Post
Strange that the judge didn't agree, is it?
I am in agreement with judgement. But it seems you did not notice the what is quoted in bold. Any one will agree this is draconian. Did the Judge say the users should not pay the road tax if he plies his vehicles here for extended periods. I know people who are doing this for 10 years.

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Therefore, a lifetime tax [...] cannot be levied on a vehicle that is already registered, merely on a presumption that a vehicle registered outside the State of Karnataka has remained in the State of Karnataka for a period exceeding thirty days.
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Originally Posted by Zappo View Post
The fact is that there will always be some to question every decision in the world. So you are suggesting that just because you can't be sure of how many of these out of state registered cars are here for less than a year you should simply kill the problem by bludgeoning everyone with a blunt rod? Is that your solution?

Not a very bright prospect that, now is it?
That is surely not my solution. Solution lies elsewhere. People who used to handle the EPF affairs a couple of years back will know how difficult it was to transfer you pf balance from one company to another. With introduction of UAN we can retain the same account across companies, can view your balance and manage it. This is the kind of framework we need.

All I am saying is "I have paid my LTT elsewhere, I am an Indian so I won't pay a penny in KA, or XYZ state " attitude is not right.

Last edited by poloman : 17th March 2016 at 16:38.
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Old 17th March 2016, 16:47   #154
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Default Re: Out-of-state cars can run on Karnataka roads for 1 year!

How is not wanting to pay tax disproportionately EQUAL to not wanting to pay anything at all?

What's so difficult in creating a usage based system? Can be easily implemented and will be much easier to police as well. Consider this:

Quote:
1. I bring an out-of-state car into a state.

2. I'm required to declare an estimated length of stay (say SIX months) and pay necessary tax for it. Can be done either at the point-of-entry or at any RTO.

3. A tamper-proof receipt (and/or a display sticker for easy identification during spot-checks) is issued by the relevant authority with a clear expiry date for the tax paid.

4. On/before the date of expiry, I'm expected to either remove the car from the state, or extend my permit to drive legally by paying up for another estimated period (say another SIX months).

5. If caught at any point driving without a valid tax receipt/sticker, I'm required to pay a fine for non-compliance plus taxes for my estimated period of stay. Fines should be set high enough to be a deterrent, not the sort we have for most offences today.

6. The cycle could either be repeated indefinitely (if something like 'One Nation One Registration' ever become a reality), or a set number of extensions can be offered after which re-registration is mandatory (registration only, tax continues to be paid in usage-based cycles).

7. This ensures the govt. gets its just and legal dues, while the citizen continues to pay for fair usage instead of a disproportionately large sum.

If I'm not wrong, such systems are in wide use nationwide already (for commercial permits and such), so what's really stopping the govt. from devising a similar system for out-of-state personal/private/non-commercial vehicles? Too much work when you can easily pass whatever laws you want instead, eh?


P.S. Before someone peddles out the "people will find a way to con their way out of this" argument, give it a rest. People use counterfeit currency, forged identities and number-plates and almost everything one can name under the sun, so unless we're willing to go back to living in caves and survive on barter to avoid con-artists, the counterfeit-ing argument is dead in the water.

Last edited by Chetan_Rao : 17th March 2016 at 16:59.
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Old 17th March 2016, 16:56   #155
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Default Re: Out-of-state cars can run on Karnataka roads for 1 year!

Trying to understand how this new judgement may impact a new car owner ; ( only from a legal POV, not discussing the ethical issues )

1. Buy a new car & register in say Pondicherry ,either through friends / relatives or dealers tricks

(The validity of registration /address etc is to be monitored by Pondy authorities, not Karnataka rto . Anyway the payment of Pondy tax is not disputed, whatever the address )
2.use it in Bangalore for 11 months , without worrying about rto. ( rto can't stop you & this judgement says they can't charge you tax again )
3. After 12 months you can get this car registered in Bangalore , without paying tax again . ( no road tax again as per judgement ) registration fee would be nominal. you are as good as any blr registered car after 12 months & saved a pile in the process.
4. If you don't want to register in blr after 12 months, go for a holiday to Pondicherry once in a year. Keep all toll receipts, PUC , etc , get your car cleaned & serviced there if you want, & start the cycle for next 11 months.

Am i missing something ? And for waseem ,& others who say non Karnataka vehicle owners buy petrol. Grocery. Here, pay vat. Etc, sir all those taxes are paid by locally registered car owners too , without any exception.

Last edited by w 12 : 17th March 2016 at 17:07.
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Old 17th March 2016, 18:30   #156
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Default Re: Out-of-state cars can run on Karnataka roads for 1 year!

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Originally Posted by poloman View Post
Got Road Tax refund from RTO Bangalore


I moved my card from Bangalore(KA51) to Ghaziabad and got the road tax refund. Here is the step by step process

1. Fille Form 28 ( Noc FORM) , 3 copies, attach all the photostat copies like car papers, insurance, pollution etc ans submit it in RTO.

2. They will immediately issues a form for police verification.( I got it within half and hour).
3. Go to Police Commisionor office and you find out the place where you have get the the clearance. Go after 11AM. They will verify and sign the form. I went around 10 AM but got it signed only around 12 PM.
4. Same Day I submitted it the form back to RTO and they asked me to come after 21 days. They will take your RC and issue a acknowledgement.
5. I went to RTO again after 21 days and got the NOC. ( two copies). make sure you get two copies.

6. Got my car registered in Ghaziabad after paying tax. ( Got it done thru some agent for RS 5000).
7. Send a written application to RTO Bangalore for road tax refund. Attach all the required necessary documents.
8. Follow up with them and got the cheque after a month.

Import tips:
Just apply for NOC only 20 days before you are planned to leave. Because in case you get the NOC early and get ur car reregistered after 15-20 days, they will apply some penalty. In my case

Applied for NOC : 28 Aug 2012
Got NOC: 21 Sep ( However date on NOC is 3 Sep)
Applied in Ghaziabad: 5 NOV

They took 8000 as penalty apart from road tax.

For My Ritz car which i purchased in 2011 and i got a refund of Rs 50000

[/url]
Ah smart, but you missed something here. What happens when we move from Ghaziabad to Bangalore first with a car ? Go through the charade in Ghaziabad of getting the NOC and tax refunded, pay tax and register the car in Bangalore again and when I move back, go through this charade again.

And all this in my own country just because I moved cities and states?

Why can't states transfer the road tax between them when you move? Make you fill a form and transfer, why do I have to do all of this?

On the other hand - One more thread on team-bhp about the same, a little old but none the less gives a picture of how things work in this country

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...ax-refund.html (Anyone "ever" got any Road Tax Refund ?)

Last edited by noopster : 18th March 2016 at 08:32. Reason: Quoted post deleted
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Old 17th March 2016, 20:27   #157
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Default Re: Out-of-state cars can run on Karnataka roads for 1 year!

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Originally Posted by poloman View Post
Waseem bhai, I am in no way questioning your motive.
I have few questions and few solutions to this menace.

1,Why Karnataka charges the highest amount of road tax.? (double the national average)
2,Why cant they provide good roads if they are charging such high tax. I have traveled all across Karnataka and the condition of roads are much worse than what we see in Bangalore. (North Karnataka in Particular)
3,I have stayed in Delhi,Mumbai,Hyderabad and Chennai but i have never seen even borderline xenophobia in these cities and why so much of hatred building up here.?

1,Rationalize Road taxes across India
2,If i take an NOC from Delhi to Bangalore,Delhi transfers the remaining LTT to Karnataka and gives me a receipt of the same.I come to Bangalore with my car, get it registered and i am no more an 'Outsider'.

India has signed Double Taxation Avoidance Agreement (DTAA) with 85+ countries only because there was a political intent.If this can be achieved between countries,why not between 29 states and 7 Union Territories.

Waseem.
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Old 17th March 2016, 20:50   #158
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Default Re: Out-of-state cars can run on Karnataka roads for 1 year!

I lived in Bangalore from 2001 through 2006 (Till I left for the UK), and had a Pondicherry registered White Esteem. Somehow I escaped from the clutches of the Karnataka RTO, notwithstanding I had several incidents with the Bangalore Traffic police for petty fines.

That being said, now more mature, I reckon we do need to follow the laws of the land. We can fight it out in courts however cops have their own way of interpretation- can offer loads of tales where people try to advise cops on the legitimacy or legality of some offences.
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Old 17th March 2016, 21:29   #159
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Default Re: Out-of-state cars can run on Karnataka roads for 1 year!

I had already indicated once, this discussion won't go anywhere and not interested in carrying on. Still I will post one more reply since i feel people like Waseem should do little more ground work, otherwise pushing too much is gonna further antagonize the Govt and RTO in particular and they will find more and more innovative ways to trouble ordinary citizens.
Quote:
1,Why Karnataka charges the highest amount of road tax.? (double the national average)
Karnataka specially Bangalore is one of the places with high migrant population. Bangalore is a job magnet and has high disposable income. Naturally all taxes here will be high. California is a clear example where everything is extremely costly compared to rest of USA. Another reason is Bangalore vehicle registration is second only to Delhi, Delhi has good infrastructure where as Bangalore is a small town grown over sized.So as a deterrent KA needs to have higher taxes.I have seen outer ring road and ITPL areas with out a single soul or car in sight 12 years back.
Quote:
2,Why cant they provide good roads if they are charging such high tax. I have traveled all across Karnataka and the condition of roads are much worse than what we see in Bangalore. (North Karnataka in Particular)
I can agree only partly. KA has a mix of good and bad roads. There are some extremely good stretches in Karnataka.
Quote:
3,I have stayed in Delhi,Mumbai,Hyderabad and Chennai but i have never seen even borderline xenophobia in these cities and why so much of hatred building up here.?
I don't know about Hyderabad, But I think you are joking about Mumbai, Delhi and Chennai. It will be worthwhile to go 2-3 decades back and find out how Mumbaikars treated 'Madrasis'. Similarly ask your north Indian friends how they feel in Chennai. If I say in the apartment I stay out of 166 only 4 Kannadiga families stay, will you believe that? This is the case in the entire east Bangalore belt. This is one of the reasons for the hatred building up here. Picture Mumbai in 60's 70's and 80's.So let us not fool ourselves here. We should not provide fodder to the growth of an MNS type outfit here.
I am against any type of double taxation. But if you are using congested Bangalore roads you need to pay up. It is not an excuse that you have paid elsewhere. Please don't mix up tax collection with xenophobia. You may call it regionalism, but this is present in any other state.

Last edited by poloman : 17th March 2016 at 21:57.
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Old 17th March 2016, 21:44   #160
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Default Re: Out-of-state cars can run on Karnataka roads for 1 year!

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Originally Posted by Asish_VK View Post
I hope this verdict may be the start of many others to follow. Slowly Bangalore was becoming a place where living peacefully is getting impossible day by day . For eg :
1. Bad infrastructure
2.Terrible Roads (After protests there is slight improvement but all the improvements are done non scientifically and I think will only last till next rain)
3. High rent and non scientific advance (10x monthly Rent )
4. Terrible public transport (Ill maintained Volvos which will break down only in peak time traffic and that too 100% on middle of the road)
5. Non scientific Exhaust sound testing (my friend's bullet with factory fitted silencer was fined. they do check it at redline rpms and that too right at the road side where traffic is max)
6.Multiplexes charging 3-4x ticket price on weekends (an online petition in flying around in social media against that)

the list is endless.
Rest of the fellow Bangaloreans share your concern . But that should not deter anybody from paying LTT after 12 months of stay, as per law in our country. Also, tax rate being high is not the excuse for not declaring the tax.
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Originally Posted by Altocumulus View Post
No other state I am aware of has this problem. In Kolkata, I have seen numerous cars from KA, DL, HR, UP, AP etc which roam about freely.
Many rules are not enforced strictly in our country, like jaywalking, one-way, lane discipline, etc. Why WB turn blind eye to LTT rule is best known to them.
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Originally Posted by poloman View Post
That is surely not my solution. Solution lies elsewhere. People who used to handle the EPF affairs a couple of years back will know how difficult it was to transfer you pf balance from one company to another. With introduction of UAN we can retain the same account across companies, can view your balance and manage it. This is the kind of framework we need.
True, LTT law was formulated when movement between the states was less. Now in the current age, where people move easily between states and stay less than 5 years in a single state, LTT law needs reform.

Last edited by msdivy : 17th March 2016 at 21:46.
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Old 17th March 2016, 22:02   #161
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Default Re: Out-of-state cars can run on Karnataka roads for 1 year!

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Originally Posted by poloman View Post
But if you are using congested Bangalore roads you need to pay up..
But the law of the land says you can use them for 1 year without paying up. I think that was the whole point of the court case, to decide the constitutional validity of the amendment which changed this one year period of MVA to 30 days.
And since you mentioned california, only when you move to california you have to pay tax, not when you are visiting for a couple of months on a temporary assignment.
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Old 17th March 2016, 23:01   #162
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Default Re: Out-of-state cars can run on Karnataka roads for 1 year!

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4. If you don't want to register in blr after 12 months, go for a holiday to Pondicherry once in a year. Keep all toll receipts, PUC , etc , get your car cleaned & serviced there if you want, & start the cycle for next 11 months.
This seems like loophole in the law that can be legally exploited. Though not in the spirit of the law, it looks like legal way of (LTT) 'tax saving' mechanism.

This reminds a piece on Steve Jobs's Benz, which ran without a registration plate.
Quote:
In California, you can drive a brand-new car for six months without getting a license plate. So that's what Jobs would do. He'd lease a silver SL55 (starting price: $103,000) for almost six months, then turn it in and get an identical one when it was time to get a new one.
Link: Loophole Let Steve Jobs Drive Without A License Plate

Last edited by msdivy : 17th March 2016 at 23:02.
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Old 17th March 2016, 23:28   #163
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Default Re: Out-of-state cars can run on Karnataka roads for 1 year!

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Originally Posted by poloman View Post
I had already indicated once, this discussion won't go anywhere and not interested in carrying on. Still I will post one more reply since i feel people like Waseem should do little more ground work, otherwise pushing too much is gonna further antagonize the Govt and RTO in particular and they will find more and more innovative ways to trouble ordinary citizens.
Dear Sir,

I respect your views.

Please let me know why do you feel that i am pushing too much.?Is it wrong to voice your concern.?

You can PM me as well if you do not want to reply here.

I rest my case as well.

Waseem Memon

Last edited by SILVERWOOD : 17th March 2016 at 23:29.
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Old 18th March 2016, 00:02   #164
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Default Re: Out-of-state cars can run on Karnataka roads for 1 year!

Mr. Silverwood a.k.a Waseem , first of all congratulations on the win. It surely does increase the goodwill of the common people on the courts of India. I admire your patience and will to fight the system legally! Kudos to your sir.

Just my two cents on the discussion going on here! Yes the ordinance or the rule change which Karnataka government did was not right and it was rightly cancelled out by the HC. Karnataka govt played opportunistic politics and brought in this change for getting more moolah out of the IT population as they are the ones who keep moving around the cities mostly.

But there are always two sides of the story right. From what I understood when this change was done (and which some of the people have already said earlier in this discussion) was this rule had to be implemented as many vehicle owners were not adhering to the 12 month rule. They were finding ways to circumvent the 12 month law ( This law itself needs a rethink and thats altogether a different discussion for later point of time). There is a saying in Sanskrit and its apt for us, "Dandam Dasha Gunam Bhaveth" which means to get desired results one needs to wield a stick. So bringing in this policy was a means which the government tried to collect more money and possibly put in some sense and fear among people. But again there is one more saying which comes to my mind, "It is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer". I think this is where the government erred and petitioner and few others who are abiding by the rule had problems with. Instead of creating this draconian law they should have thought of using the so much technical expertise available and provide a model which can be seamless, paperless and easier to use for themselves as well as common masses in dealing with the RTO transactions. Heck they could have sold it to other states as a product! Wishful thinking I know.

Coming back to the point , to the many people who are saying that its difficult in India to get the money back, yes it is. Nothing is easy here but it does not mean that you have to take the easy way out. If there are rules in any country then one has to abide by it even if they don't like.

To few who are saying have one tax across entire India, yes I agree with you all. That is the need of the hour as more and more people in India are migrating. But until it comes into force lets abide by what the current rule of the land is.

To few of them who are equating paying tax, buying petrol and other commodities, those are all your personal needs. Road tax is for betterment of the common property.If its not being done then raise your voice to the government people. Get a voter ID here (yes again paperwork and running around and I can already here groans from people) and put in your voice by electing right candidates.

Lots to write about but will cut it short for now.

P.S : I am not supporting the Karnataka government here but just trying to make sure people do not just for the sake blame the government for everything.

I am no way affliated to the ruling party in state or center. I vote based on the past record of the candidates and not go gaga over their manifesto.

Last edited by noopster : 18th March 2016 at 08:40. Reason: Quoted post deleted
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Old 18th March 2016, 08:18   #165
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Default Re: Out-of-state cars can run on Karnataka roads for 1 year!

Mod Note: Several posts on this thread have been edited for content or deleted. Please avoid making this thread about xenophobia, corruption or any other peripheral topic. And definitely no personal comments. Thread will be closed (again) if this continues
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