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Old 21st March 2016, 11:30   #211
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Default Re: Out-of-state cars can run on Karnataka roads for 1 year!

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Originally Posted by msdivy View Post
Your post got me thinking. I feel we are looking at different things. Let me understand the cases:

[a] Pay LTT after 30 days
Court has said this is unconstitutional and I agree.

[b] Pay LTT after 12 months
If anybody is staying for more than 12 months in current state and is driving vehicle from previous state, then get refund from previous state and pay LTT in current state.
What if he is returning to previous state too. One of my neighbours though a Pune resident, goes to Bangalore for 8-10 days every month, in fact he has rented accomodation there, do you think he should pay KA tax and get MH tax refund.
I know many people from Bangalore, Hyderabad, Goa, Surat, Indore etc who come to Pune 5-6 times a year for 10-15 days of the time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by msdivy View Post
People who buy vehicles in current state would have already paid LTT and is unfair to them if some can buy from other state and drive in current state. This is according to current MV Act. If this is incorrect, please let me know what is the correct version.

[c] Not pay LTT at all
Abolish LTT, or have uniform structure.

The ideal case would be [c] and wish we all live in such a country. Unfortunately [b] is what the law says. So some states implement the law. Some don't. Asking the state not to implement, calling them names, tagging people who conform to law, is just unnecessary.

Also, the overzealous implementation of law by RTO was wrong. They must be more clear on what documents would constitute proof of less than 12 month stay.

Please suggest otherwise and if these are not the cases.
India has a federal structure, so LTT, or annual tax, or different rate of tax is independence of the state to make it's own rules as long as they do not go against the central rules.
Keeping a low rate of tax by one state should be a incentive to register there. Competition is the norm in free market. if a state thinks they are at a loss, they can reduce their rate of tax.
In Maharashtra a car registered in say Goa or any other state may be issued a notice, to prove that vehicle is registered at owners own address and if the address of registration is fake only then the car is detained by the RTO.

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Originally Posted by msdivy View Post
What if somebody from Assam moves into Goa with his car? He can't expect him to drive every year to Assam to save tax
If he can manage to drive back within 11 months, or else he should pay the tax.

The main thing is if he moves from one state to other permanently or for a long period he should pay, if he is returning or there for a short period he should be exempted.

The fact is that , Karnataka even demands that people who regularly use their roads even if non residents should pay.

We stopped quoting for contracts near Bangalore, but during my monthly visits to Belgaum, Hubli, Dharwad etc no one used to ask me why I was driving a MH registered vehicle.

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Originally Posted by msdivy View Post
PS: Let me clarify - I am not a native of Bangalore.
Currently, I stay in a place in Bangalore where if I stand somewhere for a minute, I would hear 5 different languages. Other parts of Bangalore would not be much different. I have friends, neighbours and colleagues who are in Bangalore for over 15 years and barely manage to speak or understand the official language. They are at disadvantage when the communication is in official language and those are very rare instances. So they are fine and will manage likewise.
This is the situation in every major city in the country. Some days back I had to file a police complaint, seeing surname Rao the official considering that I may not be Marathi speaking, and said wait I will call some one who can take details in English, I said I can speak Marathi he said fine he will take details himself. I also heard him advising some one else that complaints written in Marathi, Hindi and English are accepted, but court matter is only in Marathi, so he should request a translator, such situation is common in most of the country, but around Bangalore it is local and local language only.
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Old 21st March 2016, 12:07   #212
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Default Re: Out-of-state cars can run on Karnataka roads for 1 year!

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Originally Posted by gsurya View Post
This is an incorrect comparison. Can you buy a take away meal from McDonalds & go into the nearby Copper Chimney to eat it?
Your comparison is even further off.

Restaurants usually have "outside food not allowed" written at their doors. Its not that Copper chimney will welcome you with open arms (and door) and once inside, will charge you again for the food that you carried from McD.
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Old 21st March 2016, 12:16   #213
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Default Re: Out-of-state cars can run on Karnataka roads for 1 year!

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Originally Posted by Nav-i-gator View Post
Your comparison is even further off.

Restaurants usually have "outside food not allowed" written at their doors. Its not that Copper chimney will welcome you with open arms (and door) and once inside, will charge you again for the food that you carried from McD.
Copper Chimney wont mind you carrying food from McDs inside, but they do insist you dont eat it there. Same applies to cars, if you live & work in Karnataka, you must pay taxes to the local body.

By the way, Maharashtra RTO also conducted such a drive to weed out out-of-state registrations a couple of years back. Unless there is a 'GST for road tax' type system across India that works smoothly & fairly, this issue will persist.

http://www.dnaindia.com/mumbai/repor...-crore-1814565
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Old 21st March 2016, 12:26   #214
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Default Re: Out-of-state cars can run on Karnataka roads for 1 year!

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Originally Posted by SILVERWOOD View Post
"Moral:Never eye a Man's Jeep.
Waseem Memon


Quote:
Originally Posted by msdivy View Post
People who buy vehicles in current state would have already paid LTT and is unfair to them if some can buy from other state and drive in current state. This is according to current MV Act. If this is incorrect, please let me know what is the correct version.
Its incorrect. Check what the judgement says.

No its not unfair, you are a resident of one state. You have to pay that state's tax. You have no choice.

I am a resident of multiple states. I have a choice. Deal with it.

Don't be jealous.

Quote:
[c] Not pay LTT at all
Abolish LTT, or have uniform structure.
That's phase 2 of this movement.

Quote:
So some states implement the law. Some don't. Asking the state not to implement, calling them names, tagging people who conform to law, is just unnecessary.
So keep confirming to law. People driving cars from other states in "your" state are also confirming to the law. You just can't get your head around understanding that, not our problem. If you don't believe the people who call names - check the High Court judgement.

Quote:
What if somebody from Assam moves into Goa with his car? He can't expect him to drive every year to Assam to save tax
He does not need to. And that's why I keep repeating, take your head out of the ground. He can show he had been to Karnataka get toll receipts/service documents etc from there and drive around merrily in Goa.

And this line is very important for you. Read it slowly and carefully. "It does not matter where you were in the last 12 months. For the Goa RTO all that it matters is that he was not in Goa for 12 months continuously."

Then read the above line two more times.

Change Goa to any state you want.

Quote:
For past many decades, fresh graduates looking for job (anywhere in the country) will come to Bangalore.
They go to other parts of their "country" to get jobs. Totally legal and bonafide.

Just because they come to Bangalore does not mean they get jobs. It requires qualification, merit and aptitude. Its not like a charity where everyone is assured a job, just because they came here. What logic is that?

Quote:
There has been power cuts before and even during sessions elsewhere, including Parliament. So what would this picture say about the government?
I don't get this. Something wrong happening elsewhere is justification for the wrong to happen here too? Again logic takes a deep breath.

Not sure which legislations lost current when an important session like the Budget was going on. Should be good to know.

Quote:
Even in case both are within management, would Copper Chimney allow McD food into their restaurant?
Yes. What's so difficult to understand? Saw a food court in a mall - try going to Forum Mall in Koramangala or Phoenix Mall in Whitefield and their food courts. You can use any chairs and tables there wothout having to depend where you brought the food from. Logic.

Quote:
Glad to know the tag you have defined for law conformists. For your information, the state where I currently live has a mechanism to report violations via social media, mobile apps, including traditional channels. Once reported, due process are followed before any any action is taken on the violation. Is that a problem?
Yes, its a problem. A big problem. And that's the problem with no understanding of laws and rules and no effort to understand simple logic.

You report violations when you know its a violation - wrong side driving, signal breaking, riding on footpath.

You cannot send a photo of a car parked in the basement and say it is breaking a redlight.

Get the difference?

How do you know just because a car is out-of-station it has not paid its LTT under the illegal rule, or that the vehicle is in the state for less then 30 days, or that the vehicle is used by a armed forces, central government employee who does not need to pay LTT?

Get the difference?

Quote:
BTW, 'vigilante' means someone who punishes perceived lawbreakers themself rather relying on the authorities.
Since my English is bad and blah-blah. Let me paste you your reply to my statement on vigilantism shown by absolute idiots and the justification.

Out-of-state cars can run on Karnataka roads for 1 year!-moron.png


Quote:
That isn't the case here with residents of Bangalore. Probably the term you were looking for law-abiding residents is 'Responsible citizens'
I won't say anything here. There is a saying in Hindi - "Haath kangan ko arsi kya" which explains the attitude.

Translated: When you wear bangles, you don't need a mirror to see how they look on your hands.

So no, I wont tell you that. Look around.

Quote:
PS: English is a vast language. It is easy to find a word, tag people. But that isn't the way of people who live here. Hence I wouldn't go down that path.
Calling a spade a spade is an English saying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gsurya View Post
Even in Mumbai a few years ago there was a drive where RTO targeted housing societies asking them to report non-Mumbai registered cars parked overnight in the premises for several days. They also used to visit housing societies to identify such cars & check their registration documents.
Not sure where you got that and how you linked it to Road Tax. Out of state vehicles parked for long time in Mumbai where targeted because they were thought to be used by terrorists for bomb blasts in Mumbai. As they can be untraceable and fake.

If you want more details, I will PM them to you. Within our family there are high ranking officers serving in Maharashtra who have intimate knowledge of such drives and the reasons behind them.

Quote:
Its also a fact that many people try to circumvent state taxation by purchasing the vehicle in one & using it in another; dealers also help them with fake addresses or using those of relatives & other businesses. There have to be rules & means to weed these people out without harassing the others.
How in the world is it difficult to get the fact that there could be genuine PY residents in Karnataka who can use their car in the neighbouring state of their country?

I would be scared to drive a PY registered car, with so much blatant and baseless hate.

If you know addresses are fake, catch them. Why are you harassing genuine cases?
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Old 21st March 2016, 12:41   #215
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Default Re: Out-of-state cars can run on Karnataka roads for 1 year!

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Originally Posted by gsurya View Post
Copper Chimney wont mind you carrying food from McDs inside, but they do insist you dont eat it there. Same applies to cars, if you live & work in Karnataka, you must pay taxes to the local body.

By the way, Maharashtra RTO also conducted such a drive to weed out out-of-state registrations a couple of years back. Unless there is a 'GST for road tax' type system across India that works smoothly & fairly, this issue will persist.

http://www.dnaindia.com/mumbai/repor...-crore-1814565
I dont mind that. Problem is not with tax, problem is with "life time tax". Who knows where he/she would be through the life time of a car?

In my opinion, it should be like this: person will have to declare how long he (or rather the car) will stay in a state, and pay a permit fee for the time period only, always carrying the "tax paid in advance from xx date to yy date" certificate with them.
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Old 21st March 2016, 12:42   #216
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Default Re: Out-of-state cars can run on Karnataka roads for 1 year!

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Originally Posted by Spitfire View Post
Not sure where you got that and how you linked it to Road Tax. Out of state vehicles parked for long time in Mumbai where targeted because they were thought to be used by terrorists for bomb blasts in Mumbai. As they can be untraceable and fake.

If you want more details, I will PM them to you. Within our family there are high ranking officers serving in Maharashtra who have intimate knowledge of such drives and the reasons behind them.
My link showed Maharashtra RTO stopping out of state cars on highway & checking if the drivers or owners have Maharashtra addresses. Nothing to do with terrorism, just tax collection.

In my society RTO conducted drives & challaned many MH04 owners as they couldnt prove they lived at the Navi Mumbai address when they purchased the car.

Good to know you are connected to high places, but I have lived in Mumbai for 2 decades now.
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Old 21st March 2016, 12:45   #217
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Default Re: Out-of-state cars can run on Karnataka roads for 1 year!

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Originally Posted by Nav-i-gator View Post
I dont mind that. Problem is not with tax, problem is with "life time tax". Who knows where he/she would be through the life time of a car?

In my opinion, it should be like this: person will have to declare how long he (or rather the car) will stay in a state, and pay a permit fee for the time period only, always carrying the "tax paid in advance from xx date to yy date" certificate with them.
Lifetime tax is a boon, else it will be worse for car owners. RTO should reorient Lifetime tax as 15 year tax, as thats the period after which green tax also becomes applicable.

Then if a person moves to another state within the 15 years, allow him to claim refund pro-rata & pay in the other state. Or let there be an RTO-to-RTO transfer of money automatically. We need better systems & processes in place. More importantly, all states should have uniform laws.
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Old 21st March 2016, 12:53   #218
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Default Re: Out-of-state cars can run on Karnataka roads for 1 year!

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Originally Posted by msdivy View Post
Well, the citizens were helping the authorities in implementing the (a civil law) rule of the land at that time. Law was known, consequences were known to all. Can't term that as sadistic pleasure.
Well that rule was declared to be illegal by the courts.

Now Law is known and consequences are known by all.

Why are those same citizens not helping people recover their cars from the RTO who seized them illegally ?

Shouldn't they help the authorities implement the (a civil law) rule of the time?

Another thought: Why is "citizens" used to describe these people? Are the owners of the cars not citizens? the RTO people are not citizens? Why not use humans? or homo sapiens? or just people?

Last edited by Foxbat : 21st March 2016 at 12:55.
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Old 21st March 2016, 13:23   #219
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Default Re: Out-of-state cars can run on Karnataka roads for 1 year!

Too much bitterness in this thread. I am among those who thought the kneejerk law was totally un-necessary. Lets have some civility while arguing or discussing.

Dont see a difference with so called normal people and the govt in their attitude and behaviour.

Waseem Memon, proud of your dedication for your right beliefs.

Last edited by srishiva : 21st March 2016 at 13:25.
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Old 21st March 2016, 13:34   #220
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Default Re: Out-of-state cars can run on Karnataka roads for 1 year!

This judgement and the entire fight has given a lot of confidence to the commoners. Cries out aloud that you should not take things for granted. This indeed has been a David vs Goliath battle.

These rules must change, in-tune with the times. Especially in such a connected and mobile world. I pray that our Drive Without Borders movement achieve this. What if the sales tax folks decide that you need to again pay tax for the "garment" you are wearing that was purchased from a different state?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Nav-i-gator View Post
Your comparison is even further off.

Restaurants usually have "outside food not allowed" written at their doors. Its not that Copper chimney will welcome you with open arms (and door) and once inside, will charge you again for the food that you carried from McD.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gsurya View Post
Copper Chimney wont mind you carrying food from McDs inside, but they do insist you dont eat it there. Same applies to cars, if you live & work in Karnataka, you must pay taxes to the local body.
And coming to the McD vs Copper chimney debate - CC might either ask you not to consume the meal there or charge you for one meal from CC at that point in time; Not charge a bomb for all the meals that you take for the next 15 years and penalty for all the meals that you might have eaten at CC since the day you were born.

Last edited by glenmz : 21st March 2016 at 13:44.
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Old 21st March 2016, 13:41   #221
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Default Re: Out-of-state cars can run on Karnataka roads for 1 year!

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Originally Posted by glenmz View Post
These rules must change, in-tune with the times. Especially in such a connected and mobile world. I pray that our Drive Without Borders movement achieve this.

What if the sales tax folks decide that you need to again pay tax for the "garment" you are wearing that was purchased from a different state?
There is no problem even today Driving without borders. I did a 3K tour of South a few months back & wasnt questioned anywhere.

The issue is if a state should allow someone to buy a car anywhere & use in the state they are currently living & working in, just to beat the tax laws. This, no state will permit in India, though forcing compliance is to different degrees.

You DO pay Sales tax even today on a car, the OTT is a road usage tax by the state. So obviously every state the car "lives" in for a significant part of its life is right to demand its share.
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Old 21st March 2016, 13:57   #222
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Default Re: Out-of-state cars can run on Karnataka roads for 1 year!

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Originally Posted by gsurya View Post
So obviously every state the car "lives" in for a significant part of its life is right to demand its share.
You mean a "fair" share? I have already mentioned that the rules must change according to times especially since a lot of people switch jobs and places of work? Why is it that only Central govt employees have the provision of annual tax? Why can't the average Joe too have this privilege?

As you already might now, the entire process of re-registration and refunds are a pain. The RTOs very well know this. Couple of years back, my friend was caught and was asked to pay LTT in KA. After a couple of months, he moved back to his home state taking his vehicle back. Before he was moving, he visited the EC RTO asking for the refund since he is moving back. They gave the response that you simply cannot have this and there is no procedure to get this refund. He filed a grievance online. To this they have given him the procedure to get this refund. The procedure is - get an NOC from home state and do a change of address to KA (He is no longer a resident of KA now infact).Once this is done, get the NOC from KA to his homestate for an address change and change the address back. How easy right? If they had mentioned the same procedure while he was leaving, he might have got some part of the LTT taken from him.
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Old 21st March 2016, 14:07   #223
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Default Re: Out-of-state cars can run on Karnataka roads for 1 year!

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Originally Posted by gsurya View Post
While Karnataka RTO's 1 month rule was totally out of line, a 3 month rule might have been appropriate & should be uniformly applied across states.

Even in Mumbai a few years ago there was a drive where RTO targeted housing societies asking them to report non-Mumbai registered cars parked overnight in the premises for several days. They also used to visit housing societies to identify such cars & check their registration documents.

I disagree that any RTO should encourage roadside mafias stopping cars to extort or complain about them, this only leads to anarchy.

Its also a fact that many people try to circumvent state taxation by purchasing the vehicle in one & using it in another; dealers also help them with fake addresses or using those of relatives & other businesses. There have to be rules & means to weed these people out without harassing the others.
The 30 day rule was akin to forcing people to pay the tax at gun point. On the other hand if the rule were to be relaxed to say 3 months, how many people will pay the tax voluntarily. The same logic applies to the 12 month rule as well.
Now the onus is on the KA RTO to prove that the vehicle was plying on KA roads for 12 months CONTINUOUSLY.
The last word I mentioned is the real catch here. Now many people will go to the neighboring states, get the car serviced there, get receipt for having filled fuel there , get PUC there etc... to prove that the car has not been in KA for 12 months .
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Old 21st March 2016, 15:17   #224
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Default Re: Out-of-state cars can run on Karnataka roads for 1 year!

Most of the folks in this thread have been reasonable from their own POV. Everyone in this thread is arguing on the weakness, alone, of the 30 day LTT rule or the recent judgement against it and trying to justify why something should be done or not done.

For example, While the positive aspect of the recent judgement is that the KA Govt should not demand LTT when MV Act says upto 12 months, owner is free to use the vehicle in other state (or to be precise, 11 months and thereafter owner should take steps to change registration mark), the negative aspect is the fear (or perhaps even true) that the owner may produce some kind of proof of residence and usage in vehicle registered state and thus circumvent change in registration mark (and associated payment of road tax in the current state).

If the member favouring state keeps arguing on the negative aspect only and the member who uses vehicle in KA state 'temporarily' keeps arguing on the positive aspect only, then there is no consensus.

Both are correct only with respect to "one" aspect of the ruling alone. Please stop taking one sided view and be civilised to listen to the other side as well.

Simplify the process
Any state Govt takes a huge "lumpsum" LTT in one go at the time of new registration mark.
And if owner of a vehicle moves over to another state with a change in address, the owner should ideally be asked to register only the change in address on the registration card and if needed by the state, change in registration mark as well.
That's all what the owner should do.
If the KA or any other state Govt that takes a "lumpsum" LTT in one go at the time of new registration mark, also handles the refund or transfer of the "leftover" LTT (after deducting pro-rated road tax as per usage) to the new state where the owner transfers the vehicle, there is simply no need for all this commotion.

Any duration, such as even 3 months, 1 year is always
a) likely to be misused
b) owner may need to change state genuinely but why should the owner be troubled?

Just see how much of bureaucratic processes that every individual vehicle owner has to make and how much of intermediaries get involved, and how much time and money is spent unnecessarily on top of the tax money that really needs to be exchanged!

There should be ideally only one notification to any road authority, that is CHANGE OF ADDRESS. That should trigger everything else automatically, transfer road tax, new registration mark.

This is the job of the entity that collected the tax first of all in LUMPSUM (else at least the owner could have paid one year tax, for example, and next year, would have paid another one year tax if he/she continued to stay, or paid road tax elsewhere in another state, where he /she has shifted?)

Why cannot the States handle this smoothly?

Again if there is difference in taxation between states and if one moves to a state with higher tax, send a demand notice asking to pay more. But only demand tax for the duration left of 15 years (and not demand from beginning).

Even we pay Income Tax or Corporate Tax annually. Why are we forced to pay tax for 15 years together? Why at all there is a need for refund.. Demand Tax only as much as used. Not more not less. Be precise.

Only the tax evaders should be punished. Legitimate tax payers should _not_ be put to task. We need not fight against authorities if law can be practiced with ease in this case.

Last edited by cs_rajesh : 21st March 2016 at 15:18.
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Old 21st March 2016, 15:34   #225
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Default Re: Out-of-state cars can run on Karnataka roads for 1 year!

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Originally Posted by Spitfire View Post
Read it slowly and carefully. "It does not matter where you were in the last 12 months. For the Goa RTO all that it matters is that he was not in Goa for 12 months continuously."
The bone of contention is Section 47(1) in The Motor Vehicles Act, 1988, which states,
Quote:
When a motor vehicle registered in one State has been kept in another State, for a period exceeding twelve months, the owner of the vehicle shall, within such period and in such form containing such particulars as may be prescribed by the Central Government, apply to the registering authority, within whose jurisdiction the vehicle then is, for the assignment of a new registration mark and shall present the certificate of registration to that registering authority ....
Link: http://indiankanoon.org/doc/24634634/

I wish the tax, re-registration process is seamless or goes away altogether. Till then, people/states are free to interpret this section of the law and make their judgement.

PS: I have nothing more to add to this discussion.
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