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Old 21st March 2016, 15:42   #226
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Default Re: Out-of-state cars can run on Karnataka roads for 1 year!

Lets keep it at 30 days. Owner is BOUND to pay LTT within 30 days of entering KA, otherwise vehicle, or documents, or both can be (will be) confiscated - this was the as-si process, if I understood correctly. Lets keep it same and the add this:

Owner moving out of KA will have to apply for refund of LTT, the respective RTO HAS TO process the refund and pay back balance amount within 30 days , otherwise a penalty of amount equivalant of Car's IDV value to be paid as well. How about that??
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Old 21st March 2016, 15:51   #227
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Default Re: Out-of-state cars can run on Karnataka roads for 1 year!

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Originally Posted by msdivy View Post
The bone of contention is Section 47(1) in The Motor Vehicles Act, 1988.........
Exactly the question I asked earlier in this thread, but went unanswered in all the back & forth.

Section 47 and its sub-appendices make no direct reference to clubbing paying LTT with requesting re-registration in another state, and it appears to be a 'profitable' interpretation on part of all state governments for obvious reasons.

I hope seeking clarification on this particular point is part of the wider 'Drive Without Borders' initiative.
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Old 21st March 2016, 16:45   #228
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nav-i-gator View Post
Lets keep it at 30 days. Owner is BOUND to pay LTT within 30 days of entering KA, otherwise vehicle, or documents, or both can be (will be) confiscated - this was the as-si process, if I understood correctly. Lets keep it same and the add this:

Owner moving out of KA will have to apply for refund of LTT, the respective RTO HAS TO process the refund and pay back balance amount within 30 days , otherwise a penalty of amount equivalant of Car's IDV value to be paid as well. How about that??
Apologies in advance. You just re-invented the wheel !!
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Old 21st March 2016, 17:00   #229
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Default Re: Out-of-state cars can run on Karnataka roads for 1 year!

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Originally Posted by Soumyajit9 View Post
Apologies in advance. You just re-invented the wheel !!
Apologies granted that's how we roll!
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Old 21st March 2016, 17:15   #230
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Default Re: Out-of-state cars can run on Karnataka roads for 1 year!

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Originally Posted by gsurya View Post
By the way, Maharashtra RTO also conducted such a drive to weed out out-of-state registrations a couple of years back. Unless there is a 'GST for road tax' type system across India that works smoothly & fairly, this issue will persist.

http://www.dnaindia.com/mumbai/repor...-crore-1814565
MH RTO did carry out this drive, but those who could prove that the adress of registration was their own, were released. A cousins XUV500 with Goa plates was also picked up by Mumbai RTO, he only had to provide proof that he was a Goa resident with own property in Goa where he normally stays, and was on a deputation to Mumbai for one year where he is a PG and not a permanent resident and that he returns to Goa every fortnight. His car was released, but papers were were kept for a few more days until confirmation was received. The MH RTO only sent a regestered letter to Police station in Goa whose jurisdiction he actually resides in for confirmation of address, on confirmation the papers were also released.

That is decent and correct behaviour.

Rahul
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Old 21st March 2016, 17:30   #231
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Dear Friends,

Please find below the salient features of the amendment which was rightly struck down as unconstitutional.

1, It was passed without a tracking mechanism: They never published the list of 'Acceptable' proof.I can dig out an article where the Transport Commissioner has said that we will not accept fuel and toll receipts.

2,The hapless citizens were told that their money will be refunded when they decide to leave Karnataka. LTT was collected without NOC.When these people went back to collect thier tax,they were asked to get an NOC,change the registration No. to Karnataka, Get an NOC from Karnataka, get the address changed and then 'Apply' for refund'.

The refund process is mentioned below for kind perusal



1, Mr.X buys a car in state A in 2014

2, Mr.X Takes an NOC from state A and moves to state B in 2015

3, Mr.X Pays Road tax in state B & submits the NOC to state B

4, State B collects Road tax from Mr.X and writes a letter to state A to authenticate the NOC issued by state A.

5, State A writes back to state B on the authenticity of the NOC

6, State B then issues a registration No. to Mr.X.

7, Mr.X goes back to state A for refund of Road tax which was paid in 2014 with the tax receipt paid to state B. (with new RC as well)

8, State A writes back to state B and asks for a genuineness certificate to verify that Mr.X has indeed paid Roax tax and has acquired a new registration No. in State B.

9, State B sends the genuineness certificate to state A.

10,The refund process is initiated by state A to Mr.X and it may take few weeks/months/years/decades for state A to refund the road to Mr.X.

3,There were few cases where people came to collect Non Utilization Certificates from Karnataka RTO because they did not get their Vehicles after getting NOCS from their parent States. They were asked to apply for Nuc and their documents were 'Impounded'.They were told to pay up LTT and get NUC and yes,this is real.

I can go-on on the shenanigans of Karnataka RTO officials.

Waseem
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Old 21st March 2016, 18:04   #232
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Default Re: Out-of-state cars can run on Karnataka roads for 1 year!

@Waseem, I've got personal experience there. I moved my car to Karnataka in Nov 2010, and all necessary documentation was submitted to the relevant RTO within a working week along with a DD for the pro-rated LTT. I was told my NOC wasn't really necessary, and was actively dissuaded from re-registering: "Road Tax Challan is enough Saar, why bother with re-registration? It'll just waste your time and money".

What they fail to tell you is they won't consider a refund application without an NOC and a valid KA regn#. I was given the run-around for months ("Our regn# generator software has broken down" and "we're out of RC cards" being just two excuses that lasted a couple months each). When I didn't relent, they finally gave in and issued a KA regn# and RC sometime in mid-2011.

Not only are these people illegally collecting LTT, they're also propagating it further by intentionally mis-advising people reg. the proper procedure to complete the transfer, knowing full well it will lead to hassles during the refund process.

For a bunch that swears by 'wanting to uphold the law', they've broken every single rule in their own prescribed procedure. I guess the expectation to be law-abiding stops at hapless citizens, and I'm surprised NOBODY from the 'outsiders should pay taxes without complaint' camp have even bothered to comment on this blatant and perpetual illegality being perpetrated EVERYDAY across the state, while steadfastly upholding the state's right to collect tax.

When did LAW stop applying both ways?

Last edited by Chetan_Rao : 21st March 2016 at 18:07. Reason: Grammar
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Old 21st March 2016, 19:02   #233
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Angry Re: Out-of-state cars can run on Karnataka roads for 1 year!

Quote:
Originally Posted by SILVERWOOD View Post
Dear Friends,

Please find below the salient features of the amendment which was rightly struck down as unconstitutional.

1, It was passed without a tracking mechanism:

...
I can go-on on the shenanigans of Karnataka RTO officials.

Waseem
What is required is a stiff penalty for misusing official powers. No doubt that this singles out the mostly "victim class" - how many powerful people move around the country with their private vehicles? The 'babus' have a solution for themselves as always; and a powerful businessman usually has a house in every town.

Sorry, but I did not see any landmark pronouncement from the judge. Its all very well to say it is against the law, but he stopped short of looking at the actions of a bunch of people misusing their powers to harass and criminalize ordinary citizens and nowhere did I see him recommend severe punishment for the gross misuse of official powers. These officials must be indebted to this judge for acting in their favor - and the favor will be returned.
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Old 21st March 2016, 19:02   #234
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Default Re: Out-of-state cars can run on Karnataka roads for 1 year!

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Originally Posted by Chetan_Rao View Post
I've got personal experience there...
I'd walked in to KA-01 RTO, when I was at the BDA complex for another chore, just to find out the procedure to be followed to bring an out-of-state vehicle. To my question, the khaki-clad official simply grinned and said, "Kya registration karne ka? Aise gaadi chalao, koi poochtha nahi" (I had been in the city for only a week back then, and knew nothing of Kannada, so had asked in Hindi). On asking a Tamil-speaking 'agent' who was around, he also suggested that I don't waste my time with the re-registration stuff. I'm talking about 2011, when there was an option for annual tax for out-of-state registered vehicles.

IMO, the concept of Life-Time Tax is dead wrong, it's like paying for all the burgers and sandwiches in a McD, which you may or may not frequent over the next 15 years, in addition to paying for the ketchup (tolled roads). If insurance can be renewed every year, why can't the annual road tax also be collected along with it and deposited in the state's treasury? The enforcement team can catch offenders on two counts - for not having a valid insurance and for not paying the road tax. Sadly, obfuscating simple things is the order of the day
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Old 21st March 2016, 19:31   #235
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Default Re: Out-of-state cars can run on Karnataka roads for 1 year!

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Originally Posted by Chetan_Rao View Post
For a bunch that swears by 'wanting to uphold the law', they've broken every single rule in their own prescribed procedure.
What they were doing were ''Procedural Crimes'' because they knew that they will get away with it.

Waseem.

Last edited by SILVERWOOD : 21st March 2016 at 19:34.
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Old 21st March 2016, 20:52   #236
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Default Re: Out-of-state cars can run on Karnataka roads for 1 year!

Major tax evasion that is seen in Bangalore is incorrect/deflated declaration of the property price during the property transactions. Guidance value of the property around my area is only half of the current market value. Usually the declared value during the registration is just above the guidance value.

Though this is a very common practice in Bangalore, all of our so called responsible citizens are turning a blind eye towards this. Whereas the same set of people are overzealous in reporting a non-KA vehicle to authorities and even offering their service in helping to uphold the law of the land. By any means, Government's loss of revenue due to the former is larger. Still wondering what causes different reactions from the same set of people for two instances of similar behaviour/crimes?
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Old 21st March 2016, 21:40   #237
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Default Re: Out-of-state cars can run on Karnataka roads for 1 year!

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Originally Posted by hobbit View Post
Major tax evasion that is seen in Bangalore is incorrect/deflated declaration of the property price during the property transactions. Guidance value of the property around my area is only half of the current market value. Usually the declared value during the registration is just above the guidance value.

Though this is a very common practice in Bangalore, all of our so called responsible citizens are turning a blind eye towards this. Whereas the same set of people are overzealous in reporting a non-KA vehicle to authorities and even offering their service in helping to uphold the law of the land. By any means, Government's loss of revenue due to the former is larger. Still wondering what causes different reactions from the same set of people for two instances of similar behaviour/crimes?
Maybe because this thread is NOT about property tax evasion? Else I am sure there will be many strong views about that too. Or do you think we need to mention every single form of tax evasion when talking about the out-of-state car issue?

I just tried to find out how this issue blew up less than an year ago, as per RTO there are 1 lakh out-of-state registered cars plying just in Bangalore! Surely a state has to try to find out what % of these are evading tax, its only fair to others

http://www.bangaloremirror.com/banga...w/48118334.cms
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Old 21st March 2016, 22:07   #238
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Default Re: Out-of-state cars can run on Karnataka roads for 1 year!

In the US, this was a common problem. Vehicles registered in Oregon but plying in California. Vehicles registered in Montana and plying in Minnesota.

Look up http://www.city-data.com/forum/autom...oid-sales.html
The link quotes rules introduced by the US state of Minnesota for people registering their cars in Montana to avoid tax -ie- vehicles with MT plates in MN for more then 30 days a year.
A person required to pay or to collect and remit a tax, who knowingly, rather than accidentally, inadvertently, or negligently, fails to do so when required, is guilty of a gross misdemeanor. A person required to pay or collect and remit a tax, who willfully attempts to evade or defeat a tax law by failing to do so when required, is guilty of a felony. Minn. Stat. 289A.63, Subdivision 1.
The maximum penalty for violating this statute is five years in prison, a $10,000 fine, or both. If a Minnesota resident should decide to ignore this advice and risk registering the vehicle in Montana with the intent of using the vehicle primarily in Minnesota, then this statute would apply, and severe penalties could be imposed.
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Old 22nd March 2016, 01:21   #239
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Default Re: Out-of-state cars can run on Karnataka roads for 1 year!

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Originally Posted by carZest View Post
In the US, this was a common problem.......
If only you had paid a little more attention before drawing parallels between what's happening in Karnataka to US DMV laws being discussed in the quoted thread.

Taxation (vehicles, sales, income among others) in the US is widely different from how it works in India and there could be an entirely separate thread for it.

To keep this in context, your quoted thread emphasizes on two things:

1. The DMV emphasizes on 'intent to defraud' the state of fair dues. Intent needs to be proven by the accuser, not how it currently works with KA RTO who conveniently assume intent on part of every outstation vehicle because they don't have any credible system to prove it, nor are they bothered to setup such a system. Any lawyer worth his salt will tell you that a 'presumed guilty' argument won't last 10 seconds in any court except a banana one.

2. US states have rules about moving vehicles between states without having to re-pay taxes. In the thread you mention, multiple posters have responded that the rule specific to California is any vehicle registered and housed outside California for ONE year or more can be re-registered in California without having to pay sales and use taxes again. The duration varies by state, including some states that have no such restrictions.

I'm no expert in US DMV law, I'm simply quoting from the same source you drew your argument from. T-BHPians conversant with US laws may chip in with specifics.

Research is great, but selective research is a slippery slope. I won't even begin the argument how comparing US state DMV procedures to Indian state RTO procedures is beyond absurd. Apples Vs Oranges comparison if ever I saw one.

Last edited by Chetan_Rao : 22nd March 2016 at 01:29.
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Old 22nd March 2016, 02:28   #240
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Default Re: Out-of-state cars can run on Karnataka roads for 1 year!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chetan_Rao View Post
If only you had paid a little more attention before drawing parallels between what's happening in Karnataka to US DMV laws being discussed in the quoted thread.

Taxation (vehicles, sales, income among others) in the US is widely different from how it works in India and there could be an entirely separate thread for it.

To keep this in context, your quoted thread emphasizes on two things:

1. The DMV emphasizes on 'intent to defraud' the state of fair dues. Intent needs to be proven by the accuser, not how it currently works with KA RTO who conveniently assume intent on part of every outstation vehicle because they don't have any credible system to prove it, nor are they bothered to setup such a system. Any lawyer worth his salt will tell you that a 'presumed guilty' argument won't last 10 seconds in any court except a banana one.

2. US states have rules about moving vehicles between states without having to re-pay taxes. In the thread you mention, multiple posters have responded that the rule specific to California is any vehicle registered and housed outside California for ONE year or more can be re-registered in California without having to pay sales and use taxes again. The duration varies by state, including some states that have no such restrictions.

I'm no expert in US DMV law, I'm simply quoting from the same source you drew your argument from. T-BHPians conversant with US laws may chip in with specifics.

Research is great, but selective research is a slippery slope. I won't even begin the argument how comparing US state DMV procedures to Indian state RTO procedures is beyond absurd. Apples Vs Oranges comparison if ever I saw one.
I am currently based in California.

It was not my intention to selectively quote laws - my intention was to look at how states here in the US are dealing with some of these issues. I see a lot of posts that state there should be uniform tax across India, but that seems a distant goal.

To me, there are two issues at hand. One is of an vehicle that is moved to Bangalore due to genuine reasons. The second is of people in Bangalore registering vehicles outside Bangalore to take advantage of tax arbitrage. The first one is a genuine situation, and I think it is great that the judge struck down the rule inserted by the Karnataka government.

The second issue requires thought. That is where examples from across the world come can help. Not playing around with Life tax, but introducing an annual use tax? Simply adopting the entry fee model of Goa?
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