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Old 13th March 2016, 00:37   #46
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I'm returning with a DL car in peace next week. Great job and thanks
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Old 13th March 2016, 08:55   #47
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by binand View Post
You are mixing up multiple things.

There are two ways a resident of Bangalore can get a vehicle registered at Pondicherry.

1. Rent a house in Pondicherry. Establish residence and get a (BSNL) phone line. Use that as address proof to register a vehicle in PY paying the prevalent tax rate. Once done terminate your lease, surrender your phone line, return to Bangalore. It takes about 3 months (at a guess) and maybe a couple of lakhs in expenses.

2. Find a tout. For a fee, he will generate a fake address proof (that is, original stationery of the issuing authority but with nonexistent addresses and forged signatures/stamps) for you. Use that to register a vehicle in PY. Maybe takes a week to do, and perhaps 25K in expenses.
This will be my last post on this subject.
I don't see how both acts are different. Just for registering your car in PY if you take a house on rent in PY and then terminate the agreement immediately after registeration and return to KA and reside in KA and run the car in KA, how does it make it legal? If you already reside in PY and have an address there and spend many days in PY, that's genuine. You are just circumventing the law in both cases. The 12 month rule still applies you know. It is because people were circumventing the law like this that the KA Govt. came up with such draconian rules. If everybody starts thinking like you, then you can be dead sure the KA Govt. WILL come up some other mechanism with better legal advise this time.

Its because of a few people that take advantage of loopholes in the system that a lot of genuine people are affected when Govt. goes after the offenders.

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Originally Posted by binand View Post
The reason we have a constitution, elections, legislature/executive/judiciary, a large collection of laws etc. is that we KNOW that we individually cannot be fair. In fact, if all humans are fair to each other at all times then there is no need for any of these institutions. On the other hand, we voluntarily allow these institutions to control our lives because we expect fairness from them. The government has no option but to be unconditionally fair to the people.
Nobody loves taxes. You take a poll and 95% of people will say reduce taxes. We live in a republic and are governed by law whether we like it or not.


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Originally Posted by binand View Post
If it is cheaper to register a vehicle in PY, then why is it not fair? As long as the owner follows the letter of the law (method 1 above) he is just minimizing his cost of owning a vehicle. Such price hunting happens in many walks of life and there is no reason to call it unfair. If the KA government feels its revenue stream is hurting then it can do one of many things: (a) compete on price; reduce its own tax rates, (b) negotiate with PY to raise taxes; compensate them for perceived revenue loss for them, (c) get union government to implement one India one tax, or (d) several other things I can think of.
It is cheaper still to not register the car in PY also and paste a fake number plate. Being a permanent and full time resident of KA and going to PY for registering your brand new car is evasion of tax in my view. You may think its legal, we'll just have to agree to disagree on this.

Registering in any state we like is not an option like buying a product from different vendors. Each state has its own budget and different priorities. If road tax is a state subject each state is at liberty to set it its own rates. I too wish we get a one country one tax regime. I too wish that KA tax rates were lower.

I am happy that outside state visitors and temporary residents are not harassed in my state now. Kudos to SILVERWOOD for his efforts .
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Old 13th March 2016, 09:51   #48
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by Santoshbhat View Post
Each state has its own budget and different priorities. If road tax is a state subject each state is at liberty to set it its own rates.
I will also stop, after noting that the above is precisely the argument sachinpk used to defend his position here; and this argument has been rebutted in the present case (plus there is a past judgment that completely invalidates it). In brief, the KA govt is at liberty to set the LTT rates, but they do not have the power to determine the principles under which it is determined whether a vehicle has to be taxed or not. Currently, these principles say that a vehicle is liable to pay LTT only once at the time of first registration (in the state of first registration).
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Old 13th March 2016, 10:14   #49
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Default Re: Out-of-state cars can run on Karnataka roads for 1 year!

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Originally Posted by Ross View Post
Hope other states too follow suit. I am moving to Hyderabad from Bangalore next month. I will have to shell out close to 4L for my 2 cars in the current scheme of things. Can't understand why can't we have yearly road tax for out of state vehicles.

Hope some sense will prevail now across the states.
You need not be too worried. Telengana RTO is not enforcing this in the current financial year YET. In past years, they used to get active in the Jan-March quarter making up revenue targets (which is highly illegal in my opinion) but this year there is no enforcement and we are down to last couple of weeks. Even in the IT hub of Cyberabad, there seems to be no activity. I think it is the consequence of a rap on the RTO knuckles by a HC Judge on an impoundment case of a Chennai registration Zen sometime last year.

I would suggest to get the PUC done in Bangalore a day before leaving and in no circumstance get NOC for your vehicles. With a Bangalore license and Bangalore address in the RC, there should be no trouble.

Happy motoring.
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Old 13th March 2016, 10:24   #50
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Default Re: Out-of-state cars can run on Karnataka roads for 1 year!

One of the ARTO's of a RTO in a neighbouring district is a college mate of mine. Some days back I discussed vehicles registered in other states plying in Pune.

His reply was that if you can legally use a vehicle registered at any adress in India which is in your posession, and your vehicle has visited it within the last 11 months.
So if car is registered at a adress owned by you in same state, but you have let it out on rent then you have to get new adress registered, but if you have registered a car at an address in your home town in another state, and that place of residence is either vacant, or occupied by family, parents etc, and you visit it at least once a year, your registration remains legal, but the day you rent it out to some one, you have to get your car re registered.

Rahul

PS: I have another question here. I know many Hosur based clients who have Bangalore registered vehicles, they had done this only to prevent harrasment as they visited Bangalore many times a week. Can these people get a refund if they transfer their cars to Hosur, can TN claim loss of revenue to karnataka due to this.

Rahul
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Old 13th March 2016, 13:40   #51
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Default Re: Out-of-state cars can run on Karnataka roads for 1 year!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rahul Rao View Post
One of the ARTO's of a RTO in a neighbouring district is a college mate of mine. Some days back I discussed vehicles registered in other states plying in Pune.

His reply was that if you can legally use a vehicle registered at any adress in India which is in your posession, and your vehicle has visited it within the last 11 months.
So if car is registered at a adress owned by you in same state, but you have let it out on rent then you have to get new adress registered, but if you have registered a car at an address in your home town in another state, and that place of residence is either vacant, or occupied by family, parents etc, and you visit it at least once a year, your registration remains legal, but the day you rent it out to some one, you have to get your car re registered.

Rahul

PS: I have another question here. I know many Hosur based clients who have Bangalore registered vehicles, they had done this only to prevent harrasment as they visited Bangalore many times a week. Can these people get a refund if they transfer their cars to Hosur, can TN claim loss of revenue to karnataka due to this.

Rahul
To register in Bangalore, they would have used a Bangalore address right? So how can they claim it to be illegal?

However, I would be interested in knowing if this is possible. I have paid LTT for my TN registered vehicle voluntarily to avoid this harassment. So have paid for 15 years in two states. Haven't requested a refund from TN yet because of all the complicated procedures involved. I'm not fluent in both Tamil and Kannada and hence dealing with the RTO is a pain.
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Old 13th March 2016, 14:31   #52
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Default Re: Out-of-state cars can run on Karnataka roads for 1 year!

Awesome effort by @SILVERWOOD who were responsible for this. Kudos and a big thank you!

I am still trying to make sense of all the legal stuff. Non KA vehicle plying KA roads for more than one year need to lay LTT.
Does it also mean the vehicle needs to be re-registered in KA or can one pay the LTT and retain the original registration? Effectively one state registration but two state LTT.

Can someone please clarify?
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Old 13th March 2016, 14:51   #53
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Angry Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

Quote:
Originally Posted by SILVERWOOD View Post
This atrocious amendment

...
Make them feel as they they committed some non bailable crime...

Coerce them to sign Vehicle check reports which stated that they have been plying the vehicle for more than 30 days.

If they protest, tell them that their vehicle will be seized and they will have to approach the court to get it released.These innocent citizens were also informed that it takes years for them to get their vehicles released from the courts.


The Karnataka RTO took State Sponsored Tax Terrorism to a different level altogether.I will share videos of touts stopping vehicles very soon.

Waseem.

Thanks Waseem SILVERWOOD!! This is a win for ALL Indians. Thank you, Thank you.

Even though my car is KA registered, I am glad to see this obnoxious "rule" struck down.

I see the the "RTO/Police" harassing out of state vehicles on Hosur Rd, oblivious to the traffic jams caused by their action and creating hazardous situations on the National Highway. Not only that, they do not have time to make sure that traffic on the NH is not held up at Huskur Gate signal and they couldn't care less. This is an everyday occurrence - "shameful" is the only way to describe it.


Another request - make sure the people who came up with this obviously illegal scam to make money are punished. Jail term and dismissal from their jobs at the very least. There was nothing noble about this scam. Unless the punishment is meted out, there will be no deterrent to similar action in future.


Thanks again.
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Old 13th March 2016, 14:53   #54
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Default Re: Out-of-state cars can run on Karnataka roads for 1 year!

I travel on work very frequently between Karnataka, Goa and Maharashtra. I drive our different cars of KA and MH registrations myself. RTOs of one state's jurisdiction flag down cars, question us about having registration numbers of the other state. This was a serious difficulty and constant tension.

Grateful to you Waseem , Aditya Sondhi, and all others for persevering , Winning the case, and getting all of us Justice, and protection from harassment !

Last edited by vinay kamath : 13th March 2016 at 14:58.
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Old 13th March 2016, 15:14   #55
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Talking Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

Quote:
Originally Posted by binand View Post
You are mixing up multiple things.
...

If it is cheaper to register a vehicle in PY, then why is it not fair? As long as the owner follows the letter of the law (method 1 above) he is just minimizing his cost of owning a vehicle.
...
Agree. Ships do the same thing and so do most big MNCs - Google, Microsoft, Apple...

Like binand and others have suggested - all the more reason to implement a single All India Tax

Also, refund the LTT when the vehicle crosses the border - no reason this can happen instantly at the border with all the tech we have today This will make everyone happy (except the touts and their collaborators), money moves with the car from state to state
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Old 13th March 2016, 15:15   #56
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Default Re: Out-of-state cars can run on Karnataka roads for 1 year!

Kudos to Waseem and team!

I have spent a total of less than two years of my last five years in Bangalore. I personally know many people who have to travel between states and sometimes out of the country for personal and professional reasons. To maintain a car only for Bangalore\KA is a huge overhead in terms of effort and cost. I am so glad to see this verdict. Cheers
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Old 13th March 2016, 15:15   #57
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Please refer to the said attachment. This will tell you to what extent this State Sponsored Tax Terrorism was Deep Seeded.A guy who loads/unloads two wheelers from the towing van has the guts to ask for Tax papers just because the vehicle was Non Karnataka Registered.What was he thinking.? Who gave him so much liberty.?The other attachment from BTP website clearly mentions that BTP cannot penalise out of of state vehicles for non payment of tax and this guy who is an employee of the towing van vendor has the audacity to ask for Tax Papers.

Waseem
Attached Thumbnails
Out-of-state cars can run on Karnataka roads for 1 year!-1457862318238.jpg  

Out-of-state cars can run on Karnataka roads for 1 year!-1457862340850.jpg  

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Old 13th March 2016, 15:37   #58
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Default Out-of-state cars can run on Karnataka roads for 1 year!

Quote:
Originally Posted by binand View Post
You are mixing up multiple things.



There are two ways a resident of Bangalore can get a vehicle registered at Pondicherry.



1. Rent a house in Pondicherry. Establish residence and get a (BSNL) phone line. Use that as address proof to register a vehicle in PY. Once done terminate your lease, return to Bangalore. It takes about 3 months and couple of lakhs.



2. Find a tout. For a fee, he will generate a fake address proof for you. Use that to register a vehicle in PY. Maybe takes a week to do, and perhaps 25K in expenses.



The first method takes advantage of a loophole in the law, but is completely legal. The second is perpetrating a fraud to evade tax and is a wrong thing, a crime.

Sorry, but both these methods constitute fraud, and should be punishable. The MV registration process is aimed at identifying the location where a car owner lives, so that he can be tracked - not for taxation but in case of other violations of the law (hitting and running, for example). The use of fake addresses makes the very purpose of motor registration futile. You have the right to reside in multiple addresses in different parts of India, and register your vehicle in any one of those locations (though the spirit of the law is that you should register each car at its "home base"). But if you no longer reside at that residence, you must shift the registration to your new residence, and pay taxes in the new state.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Santoshbhat View Post
This will be my last post on this subject.

I don't see how both acts are different. Just for registering your car in PY if you take a house on rent in PY and then terminate the agreement immediately after registeration and return to KA and reside in KA and run the car in KA, how does it make it legal? If you already reside in PY and have an address there and spend many days in PY, that's genuine. Its because of a few people that take advantage of loopholes in the system that a lot of genuine people are affected when Govt. goes after the offenders.



I am happy that outside state visitors and temporary residents are not harassed in my state now. Kudos to SILVERWOOD for his efforts.

Well said, Santosh. It's unfortunate that educated and affluent Indians think that it's okay to commit a crime to save a few lakh rupees in taxes. Applies to doctors, lawyers and other businessmen who happily fake receipts and bribe tax officials to not pay income tax, to government servants who take bribes despite being very well paid relative to the average Indian and getting the most attractive pensions paid anywhere in the world, and to ordinary citizens like some posters on this thread who think that registering a car at a fake address to save taxes is okay.

Well done Silverwood - this law was a gross abuse of legislative authority and needed to be combatted. Even if I don't agree with the idea of one India, one rate of taxes. One of the advantages of a Federal set up (such as the USA) is that competition between states makes governments more efficient. What we need is seamless availability of credits for taxes already paid in other states while reregistering a car. This system can be done. For example while paying stamp duty on acquisitions of companies or businesses with national operations, you pay stamp duty in your home state, and then have to pay the difference in other states only if the calculation yields a tax which is more than what you have already paid. A similar system, where the state of first registration keeps the base registration fee, will yield good results.

BTW, I am not an interested party. I have been an MH resident all my life, have MH registered cars, and will stick to that despite taxes in neighbouring states being lower.

Last edited by Hayek : 13th March 2016 at 15:38.
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Old 13th March 2016, 16:06   #59
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Default Re: Out-of-state cars can run on Karnataka roads for 1 year!

Chat with Waseem Memon, Drive Without Borders
The Hindu 11 March 2016:
http://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/...cle8342382.ece
Thanks a lot Waseem Memon
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Old 13th March 2016, 16:14   #60
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Default Re: Out-of-state cars can run on Karnataka roads for 1 year!

With all due respect to every BHPian.

This is one thing I disagree, strongly at that. But its my opinion, you dont have to agree but have respect like I respect your opinion.

Am all for drive without borders as long as roads are taken care by GOI.

Central govt is pathetic in distribution of funds.

Why have state govt. Why can't HC decide how to run states?

Same HC squashes request legal proceedings in language of land ( Be it Tamil, Kannada or Bengali )

Let HC decide or govern why have state govt. If true federalism can't be observed, shame on democracy.

Note from Mod - Last few lines were Xenophobic - Please do not promote hatred

Last edited by ajmat : 14th March 2016 at 10:03. Reason: Received a lot of complaints on your last few lines
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