Go Back   Team-BHP > BHP India > The Indian Car Scene


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 6th July 2017, 10:29   #151
Senior - BHPian
 
lurker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Tura
Posts: 1,307
Thanked: 639 Times
Default Re: Power minister wants India to become 100% e-vehicle nation by 2030

Quote:
Originally Posted by darklord View Post
Looks like Ministry of Petroleum and Natural Gas has other plans:

IOC, BPCL, HPCL ink $40 bn deal to set up world’s largest refinery, petrochemical complex
http://www.financialexpress.com/indu...omplex/718639/
Not necessarily applicable to urban transport sector. Whole range of sectors will still be dependent on refined oil even post 2030.

1. Agriculture: diesel pumps, tractors, gensets
2. Shipping: big marine diesels
3. Defence: tanks, telars, reconnaisance, fighters, transport airplanes.
4. Civil Aviation: ATF will still be dominant
6. Power Sector: There will still be diesel gensets, naphta power turbines in critical peak load applications

Only personal transportation in big cities, towns, and offgrid villages need to turn totally to electric and electric hybrid/CNG by 2030.
lurker is offline   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 7th July 2017, 18:41   #152
BHPian
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Delhi-NCR
Posts: 843
Thanked: 4,251 Times
Default Re: Power minister wants India to become 100% e-vehicle nation by 2030

They consume too much fuel.
These engines simply do not have the range needed.
They will cause too much pollution.
The engines require too many exotic minerals (today known as rare earths) to be mass produced.
The MTBO (Mean Time Between Overhaul) is poor.
The weight of the fuel is so high that there is not enough carrying capacity left for an economic payload.

Comments in 2017 on Electric Cars on T_BHP?? .....read on....

They will frighten the passengers.
The runways are not long enough.
They are way too expensive - the average airline cannot afford them.
Airports will not invest in the infrastructure to accommodate them.
(and my favourite) Why would any one want to risk flying across the Atlantic when you can sail across in the comfort of an ocean liner.

Go into the detailed history of aviation and these are comments from old (very old) magazines on whether jet engines should be introduced to airliners. These comments are all from the late 1940s. They sound very similar to comments today on electric cars.

An analogy from my profession -in 1950 aero engines were primarily pistons with the turbo-compound being at the leading edge and many top airliners (DC-6, DC-7, Constellation, Convair 440) persisted on with them. For that era they were reliable and had very good F.E. . Turbine power (ie Jets) had come into the military by mid-1940s and through the Rolls Royce Dart turbo prop engine to commercial airliners by 1953 but the pistons continued to dominate. In 2 years between 1959 and 1961 the first generation jet airliners (Boeing 707, Douglas DC-8, Caravelle) so over took the market, in one sweep, that the prime piston engine fleets of 1958 became the secondary fleet of 1961 and the cargo fleet of 1964. The change was sudden and complete. And mind you the fuel efficiency of the early jets was poor compared to the pistons but speed, passenger comfort, vibrations, cabin noise all won the day. I know retail market for cars is different but sharing a concept of how an idea whose time has come can sweep the floor.

I am not arguing here about how green is the source of original power or how the used batteries will be disposed or recycled. These are real issues and cannot be wished away. But the power of economics and law will bring about these changes eventually in a mere 20 years.

As many of us are trying to predict what will happen on E.V.'s I conclude with philosophical quotes from two leading men from my profession.

"I confess that in 1901, I said to my brother Orville that man would not fly for fifty years… . Ever since, I have distrusted myself and avoided all predictions."

— Wilbur Wright, in a speech to the Aero Club of France, 5 November 1908.

"Science has not yet mastered prophecy. We predict too much for the next year and yet far too little for the next ten."

— Neil Armstrong, speech to joint session of Congress, 16 September 1969

Last edited by V.Narayan : 7th July 2017 at 18:58.
V.Narayan is offline   (9) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 10th July 2017, 22:56   #153
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: pune
Posts: 3
Thanked: Once
Default Re: Power minister wants India to become 100% e-vehicle nation by 2030

As already explained electricity by solar panel feeding to grid will be easy due to lower cost of infrastructure and better throughput due to technology evolution over a period. Once combined this with energy storage and charging station availability electric vehicles will be very feasible.

Things that need to be solved are
1. Infra creation for charging stations. This means rules and laws for (STD/ISD like booths) retailers.
2. Fast charging solutions. (expensive infra is still ok since people will recover the cost periodically when clubbed by incentives via loans)
3. Rare earth material issues
4. recycling issues of Lithium batteries.
5. heavy vehicle technology for trucks and tractors, excavators etc.
6. Grid robustness to ensure high availability
7. power management for low solar energy areas (cloudy)



What will this bring
1. Very high reduction of noise pollution due to no noise from engine
2. horn volume could also be reduced since the ambient noise itself is low. (Tricky)
3. Difference engineering and maintenance skills and job creation.
4. Reduction of the ambient temperature of roads.
swetank7 is offline   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 7th September 2017, 17:09   #154
BHPian
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Bengaluru
Posts: 183
Thanked: 169 Times
Default Re: Power minister wants India to become 100% e-vehicle nation by 2030

Gadkari warns automakers to switch to clean vehicles or be 'bulldozed'

Quote:
"We should move towards alternative fuel... I am going to do this, whether you like it or not. And I am not going to ask you. I will bulldoze it. For pollution, for imports, my ideas are crystal clear... The government has a crystal-clear policy to reduce imports and curb pollution," Gadkari said at SIAM's annual convention here.
http://www.business-standard.com/art...0700867_1.html
AltoLXI is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th September 2017, 17:34   #155
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Vizag
Posts: 1,967
Thanked: 1,280 Times
Default Re: Power minister wants India to become 100% e-vehicle nation by 2030

Just back from a North American trip. Although never an EV fan, I was floored by a Tesla ride in US recently. Silent, it may be like any electric car, but what a scorcher it is. And, in Canada, saw a friend take delivery of just released Chevy Bolt for his wife on 1st Sept. Though I didn't drive, but saw it accelerate excellently with 5 up in this tiny car. He said although the car cost almost 40 thousand Canadian, he would get back around 13,000 from Govt. as a reward for going electric. Now, that's incentive. I don't think we would ever see such a scenario here.
pgsagar is offline   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 7th September 2017, 19:44   #156
Senior - BHPian
 
Reinhard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Pune
Posts: 1,119
Thanked: 1,188 Times
Default Switch to clean vehicles or be bulldozed - Union minister to auto makers

A very blunt remark together with quite good thoughts from the union minister Mr. Gadkari.

Times Of India news link

If indeed it gets followed up with sensible ground up planning & actions at all levels rather than just words for press coverage then it will be really something good for the future obviously. About time the government pulled out the stick!
Reinhard is offline   (2) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 7th September 2017, 20:13   #157
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Bangalore/Pune
Posts: 1,186
Thanked: 1,547 Times
Default Re: Switch to clean vehicles or be bulldozed - Union minister to auto makers

Perfect. Hit hybrid cars with massive taxes instead of incentivizing them, and then talk about jumping to electric in one shot. And the same dude said he won't 'allow' driverless cars in India because they'll take away employment. :-P

Cheers,

Jay
JayPrashanth is offline   (16) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 7th September 2017, 20:27   #158
BHPian
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Gurgaon
Posts: 38
Thanked: 22 Times
Default Re: Switch to clean vehicles or be bulldozed - Union minister to auto makers

Electric Vehicles means surplus energy in the country along with waste management system in place for the batteries. A long shot in my opinion.

They can start with managing existing vehicles and their emissions. Cleaner fuel and better engines. Not nagging, but it's easier to talk utopia and a different game to have a sustainable strategy in place.
Intelsingh is offline   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 7th September 2017, 23:24   #159
BHPian
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 117
Thanked: 79 Times
Default Re: Switch to clean vehicles or be bulldozed - Union minister to auto makers

His statements are well-worded; I think it is right to suspect a sugar mill owner will promote ethanol replacing petrol rather than electric replacing all. That would be practical too, since electric cars with lead acid batteries would be sub-optimal & pervasive lithium-based vehicles are estimated to need 5 times the current global lithium supply! http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/op-e...le19519844.ece
yatin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th September 2017, 23:31   #160
BHPian
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Gurgaon
Posts: 38
Thanked: 22 Times
Default Re: Switch to clean vehicles or be bulldozed - Union minister to auto makers

The only thing I can remember from this article is how there was a ban of over 2L engines in diesel in Delhi. All the automobile giants with way cleaner engines like Audi, JLR and the likes could not achieve sales while the Mahindras and Tatas made money.
Intelsingh is offline   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 8th September 2017, 00:59   #161
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 1,878
Thanked: 3,187 Times
Default Re: Switch to clean vehicles or be bulldozed - Union minister to auto makers

Actions speak louder than words, and the talk doesn't match the walk.

Sorry, Mr. Minister.
Chetan_Rao is offline   (2) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 8th September 2017, 06:58   #162
BHPian
 
Durango Dude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Chennai
Posts: 743
Thanked: 613 Times
Infractions: 0/2 (9)
Default Re: Switch to clean vehicles or be bulldozed - Union minister to auto makers

India always does things in reverse! Wonder how our lawmakers eat?? When I bought my first car way back in the early 90's it was fitted with a cat-con; at that time unleaded fuel was a 'novelty' available on in urban centre's and we were forced to carry a can when we make outstation trips. This same pompous minister must have first incentivised Hybrid's instead of taxing them heavily in the GST regime.
Durango Dude is offline   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 8th September 2017, 07:35   #163
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Pune
Posts: 2,472
Thanked: 1,182 Times
Default Re: Switch to clean vehicles or be bulldozed - Union minister to auto makers

This is just the latest shot at a masterly move.

Let's see what has happened to earlier ones:
1. Clean toilets?
2. Clean Ganga?
3. Clean India?
4. Clean currency?
5. More jobs?
6. Inclusive growth?
7. Better days?

It will take time for everyone in India - leaders and the led - to understand that these things simply cannot be achieved top down by diktats and ordinances. That all that leaders can do is create the conditions that will motivate/educate the led to achieve these. But that changes the politician paradigm from leadership/power to public service/humility.

As to the power situation, it is so bad that it is a sick joke. Consider these amazing paradoxes:
1. We generate as much of 30% of total power via renewables - 10% Solar/Wind and 20% hydro. Quite good!
2. Installed capacity is more than demand today - many power plants are running at 50% capacity because of no demand. I discovered this recently, and I was shocked.
3. On the other hand the market for DG sets is doubling every 5 years, and projected to do so for the next 5.
4. Power theft is rampant to the extent bill collectors are murdered.
5. Power supply in most cities is unreliable and when available, often damages connected loads because of fluctuations - the reason for DG set proliferation.

I won't be surprised to see charging stations in cities with back up DG sets installed next to them, in the way these are installed for cell phone towers. Anything is possible in Incredible India.

Before this EV bandwagon is trumpeted, it is necessary to fix the broken supply chain for power. And on the consumption side, it is necessary to have massive construction of public transport infrastructure that works. But like no one talks about motivational tax reform to reduce the need for creation of black wealth, no one talks about these requirements either.

Bringing out big sticks is the method of the day. Jugaad is the public response.
Sawyer is online now   (8) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 8th September 2017, 08:17   #164
BHPian
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: chennai
Posts: 224
Thanked: 200 Times
Default

In today morning papers. The Union minister wants car sales to slow down, especially diesel cars so that he need not add another lane on the road it seems. He wants vehicles to run on ethanol so that people can buy fuel off the wineshop shelves and drink and make their car drink too.
Mr. Gadkari, there is no need of new lane if you optimise the present roads. Half of the arterial roads are encroached, there are only 70ft roads on pretext of 100ft roads.
Attached Thumbnails
Power minister wants India to become 100% e-vehicle nation by 2030-1504838473884.jpg  

drashkum is online now   (2) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 8th September 2017, 08:27   #165
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Pune
Posts: 2,472
Thanked: 1,182 Times
Default Re: Switch to clean vehicles or be bulldozed - Union minister to auto makers

Anyone that has travelled in Western Europe beyond airport transits knows the value of high quality public transport infrastructure, where there is a network of excellent trains for intercity travel and buses/trams/underground for in city movement. Tourists don't need to use cars, and even residents, if they choose to do so, need not have a car, without being inconvenienced. Indeed, a car can be extremely inconvenient at times, if not impossible.

The consequent reduced usage of cars isn't done by talking big sticks, but by creating an environment where these are either not needed or are not convenient.

Has the minister thought of this when he says that the growth of the car industry hurts him in his heart and he will seek to put a brake on that growth because otherwise soon he will have to add more lanes to all the highways he is busy constructing? If that is done without creating an alternative route of movement of people and goods, this brake will also be a brake on GDP and jobs growth in general - while the auto industry today, directly and indirectly is reported to account for 40% of GDP, not a trivial thing and seeking to curb the growth of cars and trucks will thus deal a double whammy for the economy.

In any case, I doubt this will be more than just hot air like all the other things that come out from any government that is in power. All talk and no show.

PS: excellent point in the preceding point about encroachment on roads - similar to power theft in some ways.

Last edited by Sawyer : 8th September 2017 at 08:28.
Sawyer is online now   (3) Thanks Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Maharashtra government wants to increase vehicle tax Tushar The Indian Car Scene 14 23rd January 2017 14:11
Skoda India plans nation-wide dealer revamp Tushar The Indian Car Scene 23 4th August 2016 11:08
100% Electric Transportation by 2030 - Disruption to the Oil & Auto industries KPS The International Automotive Scene 1 26th January 2016 00:03
Indian Car Market to become Global No.4 by 2015. And No.3 by 2030 GTO The Indian Car Scene 22 1st July 2013 10:43
"The World in 2030" by Dr. Michio Kaku mayuresh Gadgets, Computers & Software 3 24th May 2013 13:19


All times are GMT +5.5. The time now is 16:24.

Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Team-BHP.com
Proudly powered by E2E Networks