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Old 26th March 2016, 11:43   #16
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Default Re: Power minister wants India to become 100% e-vehicle nation by 2030

What is the point of an Electric Vehicle if that Electricity is manufactured in Thermal plants by burning coal. This needs to be thought out first before making such lofty claims. What I would like to see happen is forcing of increased efficiency, forcing of cleaner petrol and diesel, hybrids becoming mainstream, Cleaner generation of electricity by tapping Hydro, Solar and Wind energy, in this order.

We do not even know what happened about the Nuclear plants that were so much discussed a decade ago.
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Old 26th March 2016, 12:00   #17
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Default Re: Power minister wants India to become 100% e-vehicle nation by 2030

Maybe Govt can start by convincing Mahindra to launch its GenZe full electric scooter, which they launched in the US this year

http://www.americanbazaaronline.com/...in-california/

In California all fuel pumps & most parking lots now have automatic electric charging points. Has Mahindra done anything like that here for its e20 car?

What we need from Govt is finite, short term goals which we can see them achieving, else hold accountable for. Not these ultra long term 'vision' statements which go nowhere.
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Old 26th March 2016, 12:15   #18
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Default Re: Power minister wants India to become 100% e-vehicle nation by 2030

What savings are they talking about if 100% vehicles are electric? Have they directly reduced the oil import bill to zero to show 'savings' on petroleum products?

What percentage of people do really pay for the electricity they use? How are they planning to produce the electricity which would be required to keep the wheels running throughout the county? Nuclear/Solar/Thermal power?

I think all this will do is shift the expenses from one item to the other without any significant savings. And forget any environmental benefits too if the major source is going to be thermal/nuclear.

Also, do they plan to cover commercial vehicles too? or is it restricted for the common man?

There has to be a will first, which puts the country above petty politics, before we see fruits of such schemes. 2019, 24, 29 general elections will decide the fate of this project (assuming stable 5 year terms) - if it really moves or is dumped somewhere in the middle and some *scam* is unearthed.
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Old 26th March 2016, 12:46   #19
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Default Re: Power minister wants India to become 100% e-vehicle nation by 2030

There is too much cynicism around on this topic. Just to set the facts straight, 2.4GW of Solar Power tenders were awarded in the last 1 week (1.2GW each in Karnataka & Jharkhand)!

Apart from the above, tenders in the ~1GW ballpark were awarded in UP, Rajasthan, Maharashtra since Jan 2016. This takes it over 5GW *awarded* tenders in 3 months.

Bids are open right now for Haryana, Madhya Pradesh & Gujarat tenders AFAIK.

Banks have already pledged to finance 76GW of Solar PV projects out of a total of 176GW worth of tenders to be awarded till 2019.

As of January 31st 2016, the total installed power capacity in India is 288GW out of which ~28% comes from renewable sources. Going at the aforementioned pace, ~55% of total installed capacity will be powered by renewable Wind, Hydro, Solar by the time the solar farms are fully commissioned.

As of 2013, India surpassed Russia & Japan in total electricity generation to become the 3rd largest electricity producer in the world, making it an electricity surplus nation.

Just 3 days back, India bartered 100MW of electricity for 10Gbps of internet connectivity with Bangladesh. This is apart from the 500MW of power that India already supplies Bangladesh to fulfill its increasing electricity needs. India has been able to do this because they have excess capacity.

P.S.: All of these Solar power tenders are due to be awarded before the term of the current Modi govt. ends. This is not a 20yr vision statement.

P.P.S.: The electricity used by a Mahindra E2O in an average daily commute is less than half of what an AC uses in your office running for the entire working day.

Last edited by antz.bin : 26th March 2016 at 12:56.
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Old 26th March 2016, 13:05   #20
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Default Re: Power minister wants India to become 100% e-vehicle nation by 2030

I will take this with truck loads of salt!!!!!!
Its going to be two years since that so called NGT ban for 15+ year old vehicles came into effect, and it has been a total failure.
They need to get the basics right first, rather than passing blanket statements like these, which are not possible to implement,
keeping in mind the current scenario.
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Old 26th March 2016, 13:12   #21
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Default Re: Power minister wants India to become 100% e-vehicle nation by 2030

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Originally Posted by antz.bin View Post
There is too much cynicism around on this topic. Just to set the facts straight, 2.4GW of Solar Power tenders were awarded in the last 1 week (1.2GW each in Karnataka & Jharkhand)!
Solar / renewable power generation has NOTHING to do with Electric cars, the topic of this thread.

So why has Mahindra E20 been such a massive failure vis-a-vis other cars in the same price range?

Last edited by GTO : 28th March 2016 at 10:33. Reason: Please quote ONLY the relevant bits of a post. Quoting a full, long post inconveniences our mobile readers. Thanks!
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Old 26th March 2016, 15:21   #22
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Default Re: Power minister wants India to become 100% e-vehicle nation by 2030

I see huge ignorance or denial about the prospect of a world driven by Electric Transportation and alternative energy. There are more naysayers who have done very little deep analysis of the prospects. It is akin to denial of any other radical change in life.

The truth is last year alone the Lithium-Ion battery prices reduced by 35%. In past 6 years, battery prices have come down to about 1/5th. It has not reflected in EV prices, but what we see now is bigger and bigger battery/range at same price point. This is happening even before the biggest battery factory - the GigaFactory of Elon Musk - begins production in 2018, which is bound to reduce the battery cost even further.

Bloomberg did an analysis showing electric battery prices becoming so low, that by 2020 some EVs will be cheaper than conventional ICE, even without subsidies by govt. And Govts may not end subsidies & incentives! Because, govts worldwide have to reduce emissions, as per international commitment.

The other reason why EVs will become a standard is that the movement towards alternative energy is rapid. Solar & wind energy is estimated to become cheaper than all other fuel (except hydro) within next decade. Solar PV prices keep reducing at similar rate as with Battery prices. The mass manufacturing and new processes bring down these costs constantly. Newer & safer nuclear technology (especially thorium reactors) can make nuclear energy more acceptable in coming decades - for 'base load'.

Tech Factor: Besides cost, EVs also have the advantage of better technology. They have least number of moving parts, thus need least maintenance. My E2O needs only one service in a year, that too mostly the Breaks/Tyres etc. No oil change, no other maintenance. Electric Motors are unlikely to breakdown for 20-30years. Even if the battery needs to be changed after 8-10years, they will be far cheaper than what they cost today.

Besides, the driving pleasure of an EV is unmatched by conventional ICE vehicle. Smooth torque curve, by nature it being automatic (not by artificial transmission mechanism) all help in driving pleasure.

It is also easier to make electric drive 'self driving' (or driverless) cars than ICE cars, because of above reasons. More tech companies will make cars (apple, google) and others will follow. Future of car tech is not going to be driven by Automotive industry alone, it'll be the new 'appliance heaven'.

Thus, within a decade, this industry is bound to be disrupted heavily. Many automobile companies have accepted this. Companies like BMW & Volkswagen (Audi) have publicly stated that the future of automobiles is electric. GM has bet heavily on electric for a while now. Toyota was betting on Hydrogen Fuel cells till last year, but is showing signs of coming around to accepting Lithium-ion based electric drives.

100% Electric vehicle nation may not happen in India, but it is a good aim to have. Heavy vehicles & long distance commuters may still use Fossil fuel. But, it is feasible to have 100% electric vehicles within cities and cost & environmental advantages are undeniable.

It will save us huge amounts in fuel import bill also! Thus Indian govt. has an incentive to tax ICE vehicles more and more, just like cigarettes. This will become more pronounced in the days to come.

So, I think, if we achieve even 50% new vehicle being sold by 2030 to be electric, then we would've done very well.
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Old 26th March 2016, 15:33   #23
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Originally Posted by antz.bin View Post
As of 2013, India surpassed Russia & Japan in total electricity generation to become the 3rd largest electricity producer in the world, making it an electricity surplus nation.
All these are welcome changes but if we are an electricity surplus nation, then why can't we provide 24hrs electricity to all our towns and villages. In my village in Haryana, we still get electricity supply for just 8-12hrs a day.

I wholeheartedly believe that solar is the way to go forward and that our current government is taking huge steps to work towards it. But let's not count our chickens before they hatch. I'll believe and applaud the governments efforts when the work is done and the results are visible at the ground, not before that.

Last edited by GTO : 28th March 2016 at 10:35. Reason: Please quote ONLY the relevant bits of a post. Quoting a full, long post inconveniences our mobile readers. Thanks!
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Old 26th March 2016, 17:24   #24
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Default Re: Power minister wants India to become 100% e-vehicle nation by 2030

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Old 26th March 2016, 19:58   #25
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Default Re: Power minister wants India to become 100% e-vehicle nation by 2030

Being a petrolhead and not a big fan of electric cars (Read EV hater. I can come up with a new anti EV joke every time i spot a Prius)
I read through all the above posts and came up with possible situations when and if India actually turned into an EV nation. Am being completely neutral here and sharing the pros and cons of an all EV scenario in India-

Bumping Cars-
Ever since the advent of cars we humans have developed the habit of hearing the cars rather than seeing them before we cross a road. Simply put our brain involuntarily first hears the sound of an oncoming car if any before we look either side and decide to whether cross the road or no. With silent EV's running the streets chances of people bumping into cars would increase multiple times. Specially in a country like India where jaywalkers cross roads despite seeing oncoming vehicles just a few hundred meters away from them. So unless every vehicle manufacturer compulsorily adds bumper airbags for pedestrians like the ones Volvo developed for their cars I expect a lot of bumping around!

Beep Beeps- The bumping pedestrians will surely have a toll on us Indian drivers and will surely drive us paranoid. Expect paranoid drivers honking their nuts off on every nook and corner even on empty streches! Imagine driving yourself through a crowded street with a super silent EV! Happy Honking!

Kitna Deti Hai?- EV's would finally end the question haunting every Indian car buyer! Electrically charging your car would probably be cheaper than filling it with fuel.
More Efficiency! Less Global Warming! Happy Polar Bears!

Roadtrips?- No matter how efficient they get no car would be able to do that 1000km trip to the native place or those memorable Leh/Ladakh trips.

Safety- Most of us including me avoid filling up at unknown petrol pumps on the long road trips. Fuel quality being the primary reason one other major reason being safety of our family. Even if it takes a maximum of 10 minutes to get your tank filled the presence of antisocial people loitering around the pumps other than the fuel attendants is scary. Imagine being looted or even worse as you get out of the vehicle to pay the money or swipe your credit card.
Now imagine the same scenario in a car charging station. Halting at lonely places while your car takes an hour or even more to get fully charged. With your family in the backseat it would be scary to wait longer at lonely places specially in a country like ours where safety is still a matter of concern on every trip.

Silence is Golden!-
I personally find surrounding noise on streets to be one of the main reason that adds to the stress and increases fatigue while driving. EVs will change it for good and one can actually drive peacefully!
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Old 28th March 2016, 13:51   #26
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Default Re: Power minister wants India to become 100% e-vehicle nation by 2030

Quote:
Originally Posted by manishkapadia View Post
What is the point of an Electric Vehicle if that Electricity is manufactured in Thermal plants by burning coal. This needs to be thought out first before making such lofty claims. What I would like to see happen is forcing of increased efficiency, forcing of cleaner petrol and diesel, hybrids becoming mainstream, Cleaner generation of electricity by tapping Hydro, Solar and Wind energy, in this order.

We do not even know what happened about the Nuclear plants that were so much discussed a decade ago.
- Large thermal power stations are more efficient compared to individual car produced and operated.

- The point of emission can be controlled as thermal power stations can be located based on several other parameters while the car will emit where it operates

- We do have significant coal reserves for larger duration compared to liquid fuels

- We do not have electricity shortage, we just have peak shortage; government is taking several initiatives including ToD metering to rationalize consumption. The capacity addition in the next 5 year plan and other RE sources should make us more or less self sufficient

- Regional grid with Bangladesh, Bhutan and Nepal is another thing in pipeline of which Bhutan is already part of Indian grid now with electricity coming from Tala project upto Delhi making 4 grid as 1 while only Southern Grid is left out

There is a thought process behind this statement and is not made out of thin air. Otherwise also sustaining on fossil fuel forever is not possible, no harm in participating in this initiative of government.

Though on personal front, if city commute (buses and taxies) are converted first is advisable


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Old 28th March 2016, 14:20   #27
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Default Re: Power minister wants India to become 100% e-vehicle nation by 2030

Even if all vehicles in India become electric by 2030, things would remain the same. Except may be the following:
1. Carbon emissions remain the same, just that emissions shift from IC engines to thermal power plants (unless of course we invest heavily in hydrogen cells or solar/wind/hydro power)
2. More than half of the electricity price would be the combined tax of State and Central Governments

Last edited by jinojohnt : 28th March 2016 at 14:22.
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Old 28th March 2016, 15:29   #28
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Default Re: Power minister wants India to become 100% e-vehicle nation by 2030

What bugs me is the following. We have to provide for quick recharge stations every 300km (or less). What is the infra cost involved in setting these up?
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Old 28th March 2016, 16:22   #29
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Default Re: Power minister wants India to become 100% e-vehicle nation by 2030

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Why do people get impressed these days so easily by bombastic "vision" statements by those who have a hopeless record of delivery & execution?

If we must have a goal for 2030, it must be that every major city should have a dense metro network like Singapore.
Cannot agree more with you. Part of the reason is that this is an easy way to fill column inches in newspapers. Literally quote a minister. Our newspapers have never bothered to follow up on past promises and it doesn't help that attention spans of citizenry is that of the guard dogs in the movie Up! Look squirrel!! And off we go. The more bombastic and unbelievable the statement, the more it will be picked up by "reporters"

Given the state of traffic on any of our cities and how dense our cities are, a good metro/light rail system combined with true last mile connectivity with buses/mini buses would transform urban living. At least we are moving that way with more and more cities adopting metro rail but without last mile connectivity, it will not remove as many cars from the street as it should have. Look at Delhi for an example.
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Old 28th March 2016, 16:23   #30
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Default Re: Power minister wants India to become 100% e-vehicle nation by 2030

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All these are welcome changes but if we are an electricity surplus nation, then why can't we provide 24hrs electricity to all our towns and villages. In my village in Haryana, we still get electricity supply for just 8-12hrs a day.
Theres an easy answer for this question actually. Most state electricity boards are bankrupt (and they do not produce enough power to meet their demand so they have to buy from the national grid) but they do not buy all of the shortage because they do not have that much money (power is more expensive to purchase that what is charged to an average hoursehold customer, moreso a rural customer). So theres always a shortage!

Many important personalities in the tech world (Elon Musk, Bill Gates etc) have been saying that the next big thing in clean energy is possible in next 15 years. E-vehicles are the future really. We cannot keep burning hydrocarbons like we are doing. The Indian govt should very seriously look at encouraging cleaner vehicles. I dont get the reactions of many people here. Dont you want cleaner vehicles and a cleaner environment? Why shouldnt the govt think on those lines? This, when India is actually one of the leaders in solar power adoption.
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