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Old 14th April 2016, 10:32   #16
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Default Re: Delhi CM's proposal: Scrap the learnerís licence test

I'm just happy that someone is questioning these mindless procedures. The entire RTO department needs a major revamp and this is the beginning. Kejriwal is at least challenging status quo. Hope something positive comes of this. There is no reason why 21st century India should suffer these corrupt and ridiculous procedures which serve no one but corrupt officers and ministers.
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Old 14th April 2016, 10:35   #17
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Thumbs down Re: Delhi CM's proposal: Scrap the learnerís licence test

I don’t see a problem with the system design for grant of LL (Learner's License); it is the operating ineffectiveness that is the problem here.

As much as it is important to make the DL (Driving License) test more stringent, the test for obtaining LL should continue.
The RTOs need to ensure prospective learners are theoretically aware of road etiquette (signages and rules), before permitting them to learn on public roads and put lives of other road users (including pedestrians) at risk for 6 long months.

If there is foul play in the way LLs are being granted despite the test procedure, the controls around the grant of LL need to be made stronger, instead of scrapping the test procedure for LL altogether.

Someone here brought up the need to scrap the written/computerized test system because we may have some uneducated (I assume they meant illiterate) candidates. I have seen at the RTOs that illiterate candidates are subjected to a verbal & visual test of traffic rules & signages.



I see a scope for improvement in the DL granting system though. What we need is:
  1. Stricter criteria for grant of license (the driving tests),
  2. Periodic review of fitness to ride/drive (or a shorter duration of validity of a DL, such as 3-5 years), and
  3. A tiered license regime (licenses for different classes of vehicles).

Driving Schools influence (through money or other means) the decision of the inspector responsible for granting DL. According to me, these personnel (agents?) from Driving Schools should not be permitted inside RTO premises. Only applicants should be allowed in, and treated on par whether they have learnt to ride/drive themselves or through a Driving School.



To further improve work of Regional Transport Offices (RTO), involvement of private companies needs to be brought in. They will bring in best practices and a professional approach to work.

Who would have imagined that once government run Regional Passport Offices would open their doors to a private company (TCS). Ever since TCS came in, the environment at Passport Offices (I can talk for Bangalore) has changed - for the good. Application processing is more transparent, and corruption has been reduced drastically (if not eliminated).
I recently got my passport reissued in 3 calendar days from the date of application. Something I could not have ever imagined.

Last edited by GTO : 16th April 2016 at 12:44. Reason: Please do NOT use BOLD excessively in your posts. Thanks
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Old 14th April 2016, 10:54   #18
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Default Re: Delhi CM's proposal: Scrap the learnerís licence test

Quote:
Originally Posted by tibby View Post
[b]
I see a scope for improvement in the DL granting system though. What we need is:
  1. Stricter criteria for grant of license (the driving tests),
Indian roads would become somewhat safer if this single criteria is met. all other paraphernalia can be designed accordingly.
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Old 14th April 2016, 11:10   #19
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Default Re: Delhi CM's proposal: Scrap the learnerís licence test

I think Mr. Arvind Kejriwal has a point here, and we really need to dig deep to find a solution to the corrupt cesspit that is driver licensing in India. But, when it comes to a theory test to obtain the learner's license, I wouldn't scrap it. I think, in principle, that it is a good thing to test theoretical knowledge of basic rules before allowing people to drive as learners on the road.

There are 2 radical solutions I am proposing to kill corruption in the licensing process and ensure that the license is a true reflection of a minimum competence to drive a vehicle:

Scrapping the whole licensing system altogether would be a start. Frankly, I don't think having or not having a driving license makes any difference to the driving competence of 80% of Indians. So scrap the requirement of obtaining a driving license at all. There will be ramifications of this for insurance, determining liability, compensation, etc. Also, our standing internationally will suffer as we have signed international treaties.

Another will be to completely remove the human being from the licensing process - since it is a human being who is corrupt. 100% of the driving tests will be on simulators and touch-screen interactive systems.

Your thoughts? Comments?

Last edited by KiloAlpha : 14th April 2016 at 11:13.
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Old 14th April 2016, 14:13   #20
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Default Re: Delhi CM's proposal: Scrap the learnerís licence test

The Learner License system and process might have its flaws, but, still is only viable option.
Any mechanism can be removed only if an alternate system can replace the existing one,
What is the alternate system being thought off?
RTO are notorious for corruption, but, in recent times, there is lot of improvements, Document checking is much more strict, there is a systematic online test for LLR- which is Computerized and transparent.
Appointments are provided on FCFS basis to all DL tests,

The Government needs to work to make these more effective, instead of repealing whatever is in place,,

Kejriwal's idea may give rise to many other problems trying to solve one,
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Old 14th April 2016, 17:25   #21
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Default Re: Delhi CM's proposal: Scrap the learnerís licence test

My opinion: Learner's license tests are necessary. But we cannot weed out the corruption out of the RTOs. We need to revamp it!

My impractical solution:
  • Get rid of the RTO office. It is a hierarchical maze which we need to pay our way through
  • We need a new type of transport office/council which will be held accountable for every license issued
  • New road safety rules should be passed which are stringent
  • Re-certify all license holders, to conform with the new road rules
  • Enfore the rules on the road - this has many threads in Team-BHP, so won't go there
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Old 14th April 2016, 18:44   #22
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Default Re: Delhi CM's proposal: Scrap the learnerís licence test

My opinion: There is a need that a subject like road safety should be included in the school curriculum. Advancing from beginner to advanced course, including practicals in driving and road safety. Student should attain some predefined minimum grades in that subject to get a driving license.
It would definitely save more lives than any other subject taught in school.

Last edited by rev_rohit : 14th April 2016 at 18:48.
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Old 14th April 2016, 18:53   #23
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Default Re: Delhi CM's proposal: Scrap the learnerís licence test

My 2 cents ! You apply LL directly by going to the RTO or you go through the corruption route which is through the Driving schools!

What happens when you apply for LL?

RTO Route - You are asked to show few hand signals which are very basic and Unfortunately most of them don't follow! Heck showing hand singals let people start using the Indicators and if you are lucky you clear or you are asked to come once again! Second time you clear the Test!

Driving school - You go meet the Inspector, whether you show correct hand signals or not you are given the LL

90% of the people go through Driving school and get their licence.

Forget about the LL, recently I happened to go to RTO and I saw how corruption works there! I saw few women who had come to give tests 2 and 4 wheeler. The inspector asked the lady to ride the Activa and while taking the U turn she fell down, she got up again to fall once again! The Driving school guy spoke to the Inspector and got the DL test cleared for her!

The other women while driving the car, she must have stalled the car more than 7 times and was unable to shift gears, they got the DL test cleared for her!

That's how bad the system is and in front of corruption there is nothing else for these corrupt officers!

I support this initiative and this is definitely going to reduce the corruption at least while acquiring the LL!!
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Old 14th April 2016, 19:03   #24
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Default Re: Delhi CM's proposal: Scrap the learnerís licence test

Quote:
Originally Posted by sidzzone View Post
  • Get rid of the RTO office. It is a hierarchical maze which we need to pay our way through
  • We need a new type of transport office/council which will be held accountable for every license issued
  • New road safety rules should be passed which are stringent
  • Re-certify all license holders, to conform with the new road rules
  • Enfore the rules on the road - this has many threads in Team-BHP, so won't go there
I'm sorry but I don't see any logical point in your idea of getting rid of the RT Offices.
You say that we need a new type of Office which will be accountable for licenses issued.
The current RT Office already serves that purpose and is already accountable for all licenses issued.
So I fail to get your point.And frankly it just didn't make sense to me.

Also you say that there is a hierarchic structure with the current RT Office that we have to go through.
Then what about the new office that you suggest?
Won't there be a hierarchic structure there too?
There should be a hierarchic pattern, for the workflow in any type of office and there is no escape from that.

As long as humans work in those offices, any new type of office won't serve any real improvement.
The corruption would just get transferred from the old office to the new one.
This issue needs to be tackled at root level.Not just at the RT Offices.
It is present in almost all government offices.

Also rather than passing more stringent safety rules as you have suggested, what needs to done is the strict enforcement of the existing road safety rules.
Road safety rules are already there but what we need is widespread awareness of these rules among the drivers, and strict enforcement of these rules by the concerned officials.

I feel that the current licensing classes/categories needs a revamp urgently.
Right now, anyone can pass a License test for the geared motorcycle class with a humble M-80, and the next day he is fully eligible to ride a Harley Davidson or a Yamaha R1! Isn't that ridiculous?

Same case with cars too.You pass the test with a Nano, and the next day you can drive around a Fortuner or an Endeavour with that license.

I feel that more distinct sub-classes should be made in all current vehicle classes based on the vehicle's weight, size and engine capacity.
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Old 14th April 2016, 20:49   #25
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Default Re: Delhi CM's proposal: Scrap the learnerís licence test

I'm a bit perplexed here. Can someone clarify things for me?

So, currently you would approach RTO, clear required test and get yourself a LL which in turn permits you to learn driving under specific road conditions. There is also a certain period starting from date of issue of LL within which you need to clear the actual driving test and procure your DL.

Now if the Delhi government banishes LL, am I permitted to learn driving without any kind of license? And who is to decide when I started learning driving? If I can keep away from roads restricted for a learner can I keep driving without any kind of documentation for as long as I please? (On contrary, in a country like ours how often will this be used as an excuse for driving without license? ).

Of course, its a different matter if the government plans to banish only the test and issue a learner's license for any eligible person.
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Old 15th April 2016, 03:37   #26
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We al should follow what the Delhi govt suggested and apply it to all the education and professional courses. No exams needed for engineering, law school, business, management, medicine, etc. why just stop with driving test. Rules and tests are there for a purpose. Corruption is endemic in our country / culture and is not restricted to RTO offices. We should try to address that first through education and cultural rebirth than doing away with tests.
If there are no tests for driving then we would have no better driving than we have now and no rules to learn as well. Welcome to fourth world driving hell.
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Old 15th April 2016, 08:00   #27
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Default Re: Delhi CM's proposal: Scrap the learnerís licence test

The previous Maharashtra Govt had indeed achieved zero corruption in Learning License test, ALL appointments were to be made strictly online & test was computerized.

If you approached agents, they would tell you there was no way to get around the system, you just had to do it online. I had this experience myself to get my 2-wheeler learner license in late 2013.

However, later the system was slowly broken by agents in collusion with RTO, I had failed to get my permanent license in time, so I had to repeat the procedure last year.

I checked online that an appointment was not available for next few months, so I approached an agent. I could get the Learner License without an appointment or test & the permanent license was easily done through the same agent as well after a couple of months.

Yes, it cost me 1200 Rs. & yes its bad to pay these agents, but the pain & time the regular "non-corrupt" procedures put you through make you take the easy way out
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Old 15th April 2016, 09:17   #28
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Default Re: Delhi CM's proposal: Scrap the learnerís licence test

I will narrate a story from my own learner's license test at Kalyan RTO, Maharashtra.
It was done in the training vehicle from the Perfect Driving Training School, which was one of the popular ones out there back in 2003-04. The test instructor tells me to press clutch and engage reverse gear, i press my foot down but don't find the clutch anywhere only to notice that it was already pressed by my school instructor sitting next to me!

So Mr. Kejriwal might have a point there.
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Old 15th April 2016, 10:39   #29
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Default Re: Delhi CM's proposal: Scrap the learnerís licence test

The point was of scrapping of LL system, not about the driving schools,
everybody know that it has become a good business to run a driving school, but, many of them are neither competent nor care about teaching properly.

Besides, given our common knowledge / experience, You can have a world class system in place and a very stringent LL and DL test and process, But it won't change or resolve the problem, as long as people's mindset change towards becoming responsible and sensible drivers on road,,

The current process I believe is good, the issue is of harassment, corruption and malpractices - not the LL/DL process per say,
Its a people problem, not a process problem, Solution must also be focussed on people, not the process. Any changes and improvements to the process is a bonus,


Quote:
Originally Posted by avingodb View Post
I will narrate a story from my own learner's license test at Kalyan RTO, Maharashtra.
It was done in the training vehicle from the Perfect Driving Training School, which was one of the popular ones out there back in 2003-04. The test instructor tells me to press clutch and engage reverse gear, i press my foot down but don't find the clutch anywhere only to notice that it was already pressed by my school instructor sitting next to me!

So Mr. Kejriwal might have a point there.
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Old 15th April 2016, 13:45   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KD007 View Post
If the vehicle is being driven by any person other than the owner, let the owner be charged with abetting, and in case of fatalities, let him be charged with conspiracy to commit murder
This is the problem with our legal system. Holding one person as responsible for a crime made by another. This is simply ridiculous. You have no right to prevent a person from taking a ride in his own car just because he cannot drive. He has every right to hire a chauffeur for his needs. The chauffer has obtained his drivers license from the Government (RTO) and the Chauffer has been declared guilt free in past records held by the Government (The Police). Based on the veracity of these certified documents issued by the Government, one hires a chauffeur. In an event where the Chauffer (thus hired) commits an accident, I fail to understand as what logic is applicable in holding the owner responsible for the chauffeurís mistake. Just because, he owns the car?

Alternatively, the Government is at primary fault for issuing a license for a non deserving candidate. One should oppose this system of camouflaging and sheltering the real culprits and holding an innocent guy responsible for the consequences. Your theory further fails to explain what if in case the Chauffer commits theft of the car and in the process of speedy escape he hits a pedestrian. Would you still hold the owner responsible just because he hired the Chauffer whose suitability has been certified by the Government? This would only encourage the criminal to commit further acts of misdeeds.

In my opinion, the problem shall persist until the root cause is not addressed. i.e., give license only for an educated and deserving applicant, who secures not less than 100% on all tests. In case of accidents the Driver be booked and not the owner. And yes no phone calls from friends, police higher ups, politicians etc to be entertained for his release. I bet our roads will be a far better place than they are now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gsurya View Post
Yes, it cost me 1200 Rs. & yes its bad to pay these agents, but the pain & time the regular "non-corrupt" procedures put you through make you take the easy way out
The solution lies in having just one process in place for obtaining license. Having more than one shall tempt people to adopt a route which is shorter and has a higher rate of success (though it may come at a cost).

Last edited by bblost : 15th April 2016 at 15:01. Reason: Back 2 Back posts.
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