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Old 13th April 2016, 10:28   #1
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Default Delhi CM's proposal: Scrap the learnerís licence test

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Delhi chief minister Arvind Kejriwal on Tuesday suggested doing away with mandatory objective tests for obtaining a learner's driving licence during his meeting with Union transport minister Nitin Gadkari. While multiple sources said that Kejriwal was of the opinion that the present provision only provides room for corruption, road safety experts disagreed and warned any such move would be contrary to best practices which have helped cut road deaths.

During the meeting Kejriwal pointed out how regional transport offices have become dens of corruption and motor licensing officers use their discretion while issuing learner's licences to candidates. "He said since the applicant starts to learn driving after getting the licence, so he/ she can learn the necessary norms and stringent tests should be conducted while giving the final licence to a driver,"

Gadkari was also visibly convinced with this reasoning. "No decision can be taken just like that without looking into all aspects. We need to see whether certain educational qualification of applicant can make him eligible to get a learner's licence,"

At present, the law mandates an applicant to submit his proof of age (18 years), address and medical certificate before taking the objective test. The objective questions primarily relate to traffic signage, traffic laws, right of way and what a driver should do in case of a crash. Scoring 60% marks is necessary to obtain a learner's licence.

In developed countries, which have safer roads, the test for getting a learner's licence is far more stringent and obtaining a permanent licence is considered an achievement. "Poor road user culture in India is primarily because drivers don't understand the rights and responsibilities of the right of way, which is to be tested before a person gets a learner's licence. Most of the knowledge must be known before you are issued a learner's licence. So the theory part must be tested before you get learner's licence and the practical aspects must be tested before you get a permanent licence," said road safety expert."If Kejriwal or any other leader wants to fight corruption, they must ensure stricter and technology-based tests to get both learner's and permanent licence without any compromise rather than doing way with the norm,"

The recent proposal of transport ministry to do away with the minimum educational qualification for driving licence is being questioned and even a Supreme Court appointed panel has reportedly objected to this.
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My opinion

Instead of bolstering the systems and weeding out corruption, the government is trying to take the easy way out. An unacceptable scenario where human lives are at stake. We live in a country where road etiquettes are absent, getting a driving license is a joke and as a result we infamously feature at the top of the most deaths by road accidents list.Biasing here on the basis of education is the worst solution to the problem at hand. Even a country like UAE has stricter rules (Not even near to what Finland has!) across the board and Indian license holders with their driving experience struggle to get their licenses there. This shows how badly our system is flawed. Hopefully government will go back to the drawing board to figure a better way to get rid of corruption rather than running from its responsibilities of an efficient system which churns out responsible drivers.

Last edited by johannskaria : 13th April 2016 at 10:48.
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Old 13th April 2016, 10:59   #2
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Default re: Delhi CM's proposal: Scrap the learnerís licence test

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Originally Posted by johannskaria View Post
...We are living in a country where road etiquettes are absent, getting a driving license is a joke and as a reason we infamously feature at the top of the most deaths by road accidents list... This shows how badly our system is flawed...
Now a days, everything goes the "lets ban it if it's not right" way . I see no attempts in trying to correct the flaw.

This (learners license eligibility & test) is tricky, there are lots of (learning) drivers who may not have enough formal education and it's not fair to deprive them of their chance to become a driver and earn their livelihood. Taking the exam online (to prevent corruption) again hits this group the hardest I guess.

Second fact is, "learning" after getting a learner's license is subjective. A whole lot learns with their friends, family or mentors and don't go for a formal driving school session. I, frankly, fail to see the benefits of having a learner's license, save for reading thru the booklet to understand the signboards. This very well can be taught to anyone who sign up for a learner's license, by conducting a classroom session (once a week) by RTO folks.

With regards to the driving etiquette, it can not be attributed to the license tests at all. All the guys on the road come thru the same tests, yet we see the "educated" folks driving wrong, corporate citizens riding on the footpath and honking at the pedestrians for their right of way etc etc, while "supposedly un-educated" truck drivers on the highway follow good discipline. So, it definitely has nothing to do with a person's education nor the system.

Off-Topic:
If we need to better the driving etiquette, we need better infrastructure (including good roads, over bridges, working traffic signals & enough traffic personnel, proper vehicle test centres etc) and above all, an effective penalty system and an efficient way of implementing this.

I agree that the tests in UAE (or Middle East in general) are better than India, but the driving etiquette can be attributed to the better infrastructure and heavy fines. To give you an example, in Oman, there is a lane on the outermost which is to be used ONLY by the emergency services (police, fire brigade, ambulances etc) and anyone who gets into the lane & caught HAS to be jailed for 24 hours. No choices at all and you can't bribe / influence the police either.

Last edited by swiftnfurious : 13th April 2016 at 11:02. Reason: Corrected some sentences.
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Old 13th April 2016, 11:43   #3
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Default Re: Government considering scrapping the learnerís licence test

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Originally Posted by johannskaria View Post

Hopefully government will go back to the drawing board to figure a better way to get rid of corruption rather than running from its responsibilities of an efficient system which churns out responsible drivers.[/i]
While I agree with you that we need a better licensing system, Kejriwal too has a point that the learners' license is just a window for corruption.

What goes in Kejriwals favour is that we seldom remember anything that we studied to pass the learners' license test.

I say, let them raise the minimum age for a license from 18 to 21. You are not deemed mature enough to have a spouse in this country if you are not 21 (for a male), so why at all should you be entrusted with an automobile?

For senior citizens, let there be yearly license renewals to see that there age has not numbed their driving skills. Everyone else should be made to attend a minimum number of classes on legislative updates and changes in driving etiquette and pass a test once in every two or three years. And limit the validity of a driving license to maximum of 5 years, after which you should be made to go through the licensing process again.

There should be different levels of licenses for motor cycles and cars which have engines beyond a certain capacity or power output beyond a certain figure. Today you may drive a super powerful Ferrari or ride a super fast Ninja with the same license for a Nano or a Hero Splendor. That should change, and any speed violations or charges of negligent driving should make you lose your license for such powerful vehicles.

Again, would it be so hard to legislate that every vehicle should be equipped with some GPS device to keep track of a vehicle's speed? In case of an accident, it would be then easy to ascertain whether the vehicle was driven beyond legal speeds. With most of the country covered by mobile operators, this would not require rocket science, does it? Devices like 'dashcams' should also be allowed as supporting evidence in courts.

Many states now require commercial vehicles to install 'speed governors'. Why on earth cannot the governments (not here alone, but all over the world) insist that every vehicle should be fitted out with one, and tampering with the device gets a mandatory prison sentence?

Further, let there be video recordings of license tests, and computer trails for learners' license. There should be mandatory training on simulators also. Audit trails on these should be there for license tests. If you are involved in any incident, the officer who granted you the license should be checked if he was diligent enough when granting you the license.

Finally, let the government add a mandatory 7 year jail term for drunk driving. Add a mandatory prison time of minimum one month for any violation of traffic rules. If the vehicle is being driven by any person other than the owner, let the owner be charged with abetting, and in case of fatalities, let him be charged with conspiracy to commit murder. And legislate that any pedestrian or road user who violates the traffic rules and treat the road as his backyard is stripped of his claims to any insurance compensations.

I know this thread is about the learners' license, but could not help saying these.

Last edited by Yeldo : 13th April 2016 at 11:50.
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Old 13th April 2016, 12:06   #4
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Default Re: Delhi CM's proposal: Scrap the learnerís licence test

Although I do not agree with Mr. Kejriwal, I do appreciate him looking after this matter. The driving license mechanism in our country is ignorant at best and deadly at worst. Like most other education systems, this system dramatically fails in imparting any knowledge regarding road safety, ethics or manners.

Obtaining a driving license is not a right. People need to strive to be proven worthy of risking the lives of other road users who share the road with them. Make the licensing system tough is what I suggest. Even the existing users need to retake the test and those who fail should have their license revoked.

But this should ONLY be applied once the govt deploys good public transport systems. Make using personal vehicles a lifestyle choice rather than a necessity. Only then will the roads in our country be safer.
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Old 13th April 2016, 12:09   #5
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Default Re: Government considering scrapping the learnerís licence test

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Originally Posted by Yeldo View Post
I say, let them raise the minimum age for a license from 18 to 21. You are not deemed mature enough to have a spouse in this country if you are not 21 (for a male), so why at all should you be entrusted with an automobile?

For senior citizens, let there be yearly license renewals to see that there age has not numbed their driving skills. Everyone else should be made to attend a minimum number of classes on legislative updates and changes in driving etiquette and pass a test once in every two or three years. And limit the validity of a driving license to maximum of 5 years, after which you should be made to go through the licensing process again.
Agree on both these points. I always wondered why dont they raise the minimum age to 21 !!

Also in case of Senior Citizens, if you are 59 years old you can get the license but if you are 60 years and 1 day old then you cant. I know you have to draw a limit some where but I believe the maximum license validity should be upto the age of 60, after that it should be renewable every year or two, depending upon certain criteria the driver is able to pass.

Lastly, while we will always question adherence of all these implementations, but if you take example of drink and drive, the % has definitely reduced to an extent (atleast in the metro cities) after stricter punishment and laws.
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Old 13th April 2016, 12:18   #6
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Default Re: Government considering scrapping the learnerís licence test

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Finally, let the government add a mandatory 7 year jail term for drunk driving. Add a mandatory prison time of minimum one month for any violation of traffic rules. If the vehicle is being driven by any person other than the owner, let the owner be charged with abetting, and in case of fatalities, let him be charged with conspiracy to commit murder. And legislate that any pedestrian or road user who violates the traffic rules and treat the road as his backyard is stripped of his claims to any insurance compensations.

Gives more power to the corrupt( in the current situation). Changes, if any, will come from change of thought process. We do have good people as well, just that we need more of them.

Make as many system, policies, penalties but ultimately its the mindset of people which needs to change. And that's something difficult to influence from outside, it has to be from within.

Last edited by Eddy : 24th April 2016 at 23:44. Reason: Correcting quote
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Old 13th April 2016, 12:26   #7
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Default Re: Delhi CM's proposal: Scrap the learnerís licence test

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During the meeting Kejriwal pointed out how regional transport offices have become dens of corruption and motor licensing officers use their discretion while issuing learner's licences to candidates. "He said since the applicant starts to learn driving after getting the licence, so he/ she can learn the necessary norms and stringent tests should be conducted while giving the final licence to a driver,"
This is not going to solve the corruption menace. The RTO officer will grab his share at the time of final test and more stringency means more scope for misuse of powers. The written exam has to be system based all over India. When human interaction is reduced, corruption will automatically be in control.

Quote:
Lastly, while we will always question adherence of all these implementations, but if you take example of drink and drive, the % has definitely reduced to an extent (atleast in the metro cities) after stricter punishment and laws.
I agree, ever since the awareness campaigns have been intensified, my vehicles have been in the garage over the weekends. Earlier I used to hire the 'partyhard' people, but with uber & ola available at every nook and corner, I find that more convenient & economical.
I guess this has relevance with one's education and moral upbringing along with maturity levels too. I am almost 40 now. With kids and responsibility comes better understanding too. Everytime I hang out with my childhood friends and we dwell on our past, we are ashamed at how we put ours and others lives at risk with our careless behaviour with reference to drunk driving.
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Old 13th April 2016, 12:57   #8
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Default Re: Delhi CM's proposal: Scrap the learnerís licence test

I am all for changing the present system of granting driving licenses in India. In its present form, it is nothing but a formality that every person who wishes to drive must undergo. Safety concerns, vehicle power, density of traffic have all gone up and we need a new system to keep up with the new reality of our roads.

I got my driving license back in 2002 when I had not even sat in an automatic car. Now, there are tens of automatic cars on sale and my driving skills have never been evaluated for driving such vehicles. This is just a minor example.

I believe all systems need to be updated/changed periodically to keep pace with the changing environment of any system. For a critical and potentially life endangering system of issuing driving licenses, it becomes even more important to change the system every few years.

Hopefully Kejriwal's effort of highlighting the issue and bringing it to national attention may lead to a better, even if stricter, system for issuing driving licenses.

Last edited by toothless : 13th April 2016 at 13:01. Reason: Typos
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Old 13th April 2016, 13:38   #9
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Default Re: Delhi CM's proposal: Scrap the learnerís licence test

What has happened is that the government has realized that eradicating corruption completely (100%) is not an easy task. Therefore a lot of their decisions have now taken the shape of minimizing it.

Now why wouldn't one want to minimize it by minimizing the opportunities where corruption can happen? Simply because you are merely shifting the opportunity, not taking care of it.

Drafting a new process is easy, putting adequate controls and implementing them is a tough task which is where we've failed so far.

Unfortunately a lot of things have taken the shape of propaganda instead of actual solutions. What is needed is robust implementation of whatever laws/rules/regulations exist before trying to come up with innovative methods (because they aren't really that innovative).
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Old 14th April 2016, 00:31   #10
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Default Re: Government considering scrapping the learnerís licence test

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Originally Posted by KD007 View Post
Finally, let the government add a mandatory 7 year jail term for drunk driving. Add a mandatory prison time of minimum one month for any violation of traffic rules. If the vehicle is being driven by any person other than the owner, let the owner be charged with abetting, and in case of fatalities, let him be charged with conspiracy to commit murder. And legislate that any pedestrian or road user who violates the traffic rules and treat the road as his backyard is stripped of his claims to any insurance compensations.


Gives more power to the corrupt( in the current situation). Changes, if any, will come from change of thought process. We do have good people as well, just that we need more of them.

Make as many system, policies, penalties but ultimately its the mindset of people which needs to change. And that's something difficult to influence from outside, it has to be from within.
Sir, you are right when you say that the mindset of people have to change. This said, I would beg to differ with you on the quantum of punishment you seem to suggest, as not only are they draconian , but also very complicated to administer!
For example, 'drunk driving' is of many types, depending on the alcohol percentage in the blood. There is apparatus to measure this. This exercise usually separates the drunk driver from the driver who is legally not drunk and in full command of his senses. I am not advocating driving under the influence of liquor , but certainly do advocate different measures of penalty for different level of errant drivers. 7 years in prison is no joke. its only 3 years less than that of culpable homicide not amounting to murder. Being involved in an accident with fatalities is a different matter, there are laws for it, but just for driving?
Secondly, would anyone even in his or her wildest dreams accept mandatory imprisonment for 1 month just because he/she took a wrong U turn? That too is a traffic offence.. or for keeping headlight beam on high mode..!
If people with valid driving licenses were charged for driving others registered cars, then I wouldn't be able to drive my wife's car; my driver wouldn't be able to drive my car, ( applied to all chauffeurs), I wouldn't be able to borrow my relative's or friend's car... and so on.! This wouldn't make sense at all..
I think we all know where the fault lies. Its in the implementation of rules by the enforcement agencies. The corruption prevalent, and the current norms of our society, where 'sab chalta hai',of which we are a part too. We can make a hundred more rules and with equally brutal punishments, but its no use without the correct spirit of implementation by people who are vested with the authority.
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Old 14th April 2016, 01:18   #11
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Default Re: Delhi CM's proposal: Scrap the learnerís licence test

Lets not get into the politics of things.

We definitely need to re-think licenses. My solution : Additional Differential Driving Licenses.

I think we'd do better having an additional & different *class* of driving license holders. Such a licensees should be given social recognition, better pay etc.

It'll work like a privilege license that someone will be proud to possess. They'll even feel responsible to maintain good composure & remain calm & careful drivers at times of stress.

Think of it,
Would you not pay for a better qualified & properly verified Uber / Taxi driver ?
Or would your company's CEO not pay better for a better qualified personal driver ?
Or better still, would you not pay better for a additionally qualified School Bus driver for your kids school ?

Example : IIRC In the UK, there was a point system where one would *get* a point for bad driving. And one is allowed only max of 10 points, after which the license is cancelled. The resultant social reaction wasn't very favourable. When people *got* a point, they'd want to forget it & laugh it off, so they became casual about having *got* a point. Some had even stupidly started relating it to being a " b*d*ss " .

Then the authorities changed the terminology to where the drivers would *Get* the DL with 10 Points, & each serious mistake would *lose* them 1 point.

This changed the way people reacted to the point system. One doesn't always tend to forget easily after they lost something. Additionally, when people were down on points, they'd started becoming VERY cautious about driving carefully.

Its like, when you're low on fuel, you tend to drive cautiously (atleast till you reach the fuel station). But Fuel can be re-filled. Points cannot!

This helped them improve driving habits of people.

Please give your suggestions. Please avoid rants like the first line of the last paragraph of the opening post.

Our governments need to feel compelled to start listening to us, accept its follies & bring the change as per merit.

It may be tough to grow consensus but there is no other way. If we don't put our efforts, this will remain a pseudo democracy for which our forefathers shed their sweat & blood.

Last edited by WorkingGuru : 14th April 2016 at 01:26.
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Old 14th April 2016, 07:18   #12
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Default Re: Delhi CM's proposal: Scrap the learnerís licence test

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Originally Posted by riteshritesh View Post
This is not going to solve the corruption menace. The RTO officer will grab his share at the time of final test and more stringency means more scope for misuse of powers. The written exam has to be system based all over India. When human interaction is reduced, corruption will automatically be in control.
Reminds me of the joke about Brazil going around in the UK in the mid-1970's. In Sao Paolo at the end of the test you do not ask, 'Have I passed?' The question was, 'How much?', since the quantum of 'dakshina' was related to how well or badly you performed. With us the two are totally independent.

In fact I would not mind the (old, as I do not know the current status) French system, where you checked the driving schools, who were authorized to issue a certificate of competence, which translated into a license.

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Originally Posted by toothless View Post
I am all for changing the present system of granting driving licenses in India. In its present form, it is nothing but a formality that every person who wishes to drive must undergo. Safety concerns, vehicle power, density of traffic have all gone up and we need a new system to keep up with the new reality of our roads.

I got my driving license back in 2002 when I had not even sat in an automatic car. Now, there are tens of automatic cars on sale and my driving skills have never been evaluated for driving such vehicles. This is just a minor example..
afaik the UK license for MT included the AT cars (Category A for MT and B for AT) but not vice versa, ie if you passed in a MT you could drive and AT but a pass with an AT did not permit you to drive a MT.

Last edited by sgiitk : 14th April 2016 at 07:21.
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Old 14th April 2016, 08:40   #13
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Now a days, everything goes the "lets ban it if it's not right" way . I see no attempts in trying to correct the flaw.
Couldn't agree more.

There is no point trying to bring in the all the rules if you don't have the necessary infrastructure. That said the way the licencing system works is pretty much bad, but canceling the learners licence isnt the way out. There should be a more automated way by which the licencing should be done or there should be stricter laws for a driver to pass the license. Most law abiding citizens would start driving only after getting a learners licence , what is the alternate way by which the Delhi CM expects the people to learn driving?.

Last edited by GTO : 14th April 2016 at 13:43. Reason: Trimming quote
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Old 14th April 2016, 08:49   #14
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Default Re: Delhi CM's proposal: Scrap the learnerís licence test

Technically there are flaws in both procedures, whether it involves scrapping the learners license or allowing the existing system to continue. Let's not forget that removing the start/middle process is the least effective way of
reducing corruption because the end process will always compensate itself.

Technically, a learners license is issued to a person who is assumed to know nothing of riding/driving and gives him/her a temporary window of time to perfect road rules, driving and/or riding before they are issued the Drivers License. The applicant may have to go through a few tests of road rules (almost a formality) before the approval is given for LL. My problem with that is many if not most people will still have zero idea after even after acquiring it. In a neighbourhood where I used to be in, a lady who at that time was in her late 50's not only acquired the learners permit but also managed to clear the driving test to get the DL, here's the problem - she couldn't go 2 feet without bumping the walls or gate and that was before even getting onto the road, not to mention several fender benders outside as well. Clearly the best practices that the government is fearing would be lacking if not for the learners test are INDEED lacking even with it. Reversing & parallel parking is a rare skill in Indian drivers, most do not perfect it until several years of driving, cabs are poorest in that aspect from what I've seen. Learner's test teaches one about the signals, the red, green & amber, one-way signs, no parking signs, hand signals, etc which are essential to know but even the most accomplished drivers violate such common knowledge on a daily basis.

What Kejriwal is missing though, is that a method of identification and age-proof verification prior to commencement of motoring is indeed required to smooth-out the process for Driving License in the next stage, otherwise too many people will try to learn driving by themselves well before the age-limit and without supervision. Thus if such a verification process exists, so will corruption. He could look into cutting the processes down for other Governmental regulations such as house construction approval, applying for electricity, water, even passports, but as far as DL goes, a personal touch would be highly essential.
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Old 14th April 2016, 10:25   #15
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Default Re: Delhi CM's proposal: Scrap the learnerís licence test

The biggest example of chalta hai Indian attitude is nothing but the drive licencing system. Basically there is no system to speak off because you actually learn driving after you get your permanent licence. Driving is a privilege and not your citizen right and the licencing procedure should be such. If you are new driver in my present home country, to get a full driver licence will take you atleast 2 years and you will have to undergo atleast 3 rigorous tests which not only test your knowledge about driving rules but also your driving and make sure that you have driven in every road situation in the presence of a full licence holder such as driving in the night or in rain.

What we need is a through overhaul of the licensing system in India rather than bits and pieces modification of the current system which is thoroughly incapable of judging good drivers from bad or those who can and are able to drive to those who dont.

Just go through how rigorous the procedure to get a driver licence in Australia is
https://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/safe...censing-system

But then again if you want to implement the same procedure you need to have roads for it. More than anything else, intuition and reaction time are the two most important things that you need while driving in India. The road network needs to upgraded to handle the test cases as well. I am not really sure where and how we can start but I am pretty sure that both needs to go hand in hand.
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