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Old 20th May 2016, 18:33   #331
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Default Re: More Indian cars face Global NCAP crash tests. Edit: ZERO for all

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Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom View Post
Thanks for the clarification.

I still think that all this "city driving," line, which we do see often, needs to be dropped from our thinking. It is like saying that city driving is not really dangerous, whereas, once one gets out on the open road, that is when we should be scared.

No: city driving is dangerous. City speeds are dangerous. I am glad that, as an almost-all-city-miles driver, I chose a car with airbags. It's just that recent news on these tests, etc, via Team-BHP and discussions I now regard them as even more important.

It's only city driving --- seems to be an Indian thing. In the only other country where I'm familiar with driving, cities are considered far more dangerous.
I'm just being argumentative here.

Why just 2 airbags? Why not go with something with 8 airbags only as minimum? And something that has radar braking? And night vision? How about only buying 2 tonne SUVs, because 1 tonne hatchbacks are less safer? How about only riding in the backseat and hiring a driver instead? You know, backseats are safer?

Where do you stop? Safety technology will keep improving every 3 years, if you want to be really safe, you need to constantly upgrade your car every 3 years.

The Global NCAP test issue is a really an issue of deceit/ loss of trust. You think you have a safe vehicle when you spent Rs. 17 Lacs, but its actually not.

The Bharat NCAP should sort out the above. I have no issues with unsafe car being sold in India, as long as customers know what they are getting into the first place. I don't mind driving "unsafe" cars (dad's santro, wife's a-star without airbags) either. Heck! After all, many of us grew up in an Ambassador or Maruti 800!
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Old 20th May 2016, 19:01   #332
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Default Re: More Indian cars face Global NCAP crash tests. Edit: ZERO for all

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I'm just being argumentative here.

Why just 2 airbags? Why not ... ... ...
I think we are talking minimum safety standards. I could be wrong, but I think that, talking of seat belts and two airbags, the following are huge steps in increased safety:

1. No airbag; no/unused seatbelts
2. Properly used seatbelts
3. Properly used seatbelts and two airbags.

Sure, we could add to that list, possibly for ever. I'd be very happy to have side-curtain airbags. I'm happy to have ABS, and I'd be happy to have even more such gadgetry. The addition of those things would probably be smaller incremental steps, but, undeniably would improve the vehicle safety.

So, where do you stop? Do we upgrade our cars every time there is a big improvement? We couldn't afford it. I'm currently driving one of the safer hatchbacks in its price range. it has two airbags: not four, not six, not eight. Already I could make that upgrade! But it isn't financially possible. (And it was something of a struggle with Mrs G to get her to accept that I was not going to buy a vehicle without those two basic steps, for her sake as well as mine).

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The Global NCAP test issue is a really an issue of deceit/ loss of trust.
Yes it is. Although I had already moved on to another car, I was hurt to discover that the Swift I had been driving was so much less safe than the European car.

Actually, we should never forget: We can die in any car. All we can do is add things that reduce the risk. There is no such thing as a completely safe car.

And ultimately, it is how people drive that matters the most, and, as and when we buy those safer cars, we have to beware of any overconfidence they may give us.

Last edited by Thad E Ginathom : 20th May 2016 at 19:05.
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Old 20th May 2016, 19:27   #333
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Default Re: More Indian cars face Global NCAP crash tests. Edit: ZERO for all

Looks like only 3 car makers Toyota, Volkswagen and Ford have got at least 4 star in their smaller cars. http://www.autoevolution.com/news/4-...cap-71928.html Can we list out the larger cars that have failed.

Rahul
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Old 20th May 2016, 19:31   #334
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Default Re: More Indian cars face Global NCAP crash tests. Edit: ZERO for all

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom View Post
Thanks for the clarification.

I still think that all this "city driving," line, which we do see often, needs to be dropped from our thinking. It is like saying that city driving is not really dangerous, whereas, once one gets out on the open road, that is when we should be scared.
Just expanding on it, the city also has disproportionately large number of two wheelers which everyone seems to be ignoring. And the larger number means a greater number of accidents for two wheelers. A small city car fares better in a collision that includes two wheelers and does a lot more better than a two wheeler in a collision that involves a four wheeler. Taking such a nimble vehicle (small wheelbase) to a highway is possible, but not advisable. It still has a better survival chance than a very high end two wheeler on a highway though.

Quote:
No: city driving is dangerous. City speeds are dangerous. I am glad that, as an almost-all-city-miles driver, I chose a car with airbags. It's just that recent news on these tests, etc, via Team-BHP and discussions I now regard them as even more important.
Just out of curiosity, what are your thoughts on the bike and scooter drivers travelling in the same lethal roads? Wouldn't they be more vulnerable to the dangerous speeds?


@TD_GHY, sanchari, Sairamboko: No offense meant, I love the Nano. But its design aspects support what I said. The engine cuts off at 105 kmph, it is not meant for speeds with which we can legitimately occupy the fast lane in a highway. It has wheels of different sizes to reduce oversteer and mix it with the drum brakes, stopping it from high speeds would be a touch and go. Be careful on the highway, exceed 80 only if it is absolutely clear roads.
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Old 20th May 2016, 19:32   #335
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Default Re: More Indian cars face Global NCAP crash tests. Edit: ZERO for all

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Originally Posted by Rahul Rao View Post
Looks like only 3 car makers Toyota, Volkswagen and Ford have got at least 4 star in their smaller cars. http://www.autoevolution.com/news/4-...cap-71928.html Can we list out the larger cars that have failed.
Only Toyota (Liva) and VW (Polo) have got 'decent' G NCAP ratings for the cars plying on Indian roads.

G NCAP has not tested Ford's Ecosport that is 'Made For India'!

Last edited by volkman10 : 20th May 2016 at 19:47.
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Old 20th May 2016, 19:48   #336
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Default Re: More Indian cars face Global NCAP crash tests. Edit: ZERO for all

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Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom View Post
There is no such thing as a completely safe car.
There may not currently be a completely safe car, but Volvo is certainly up for the challenge.

Volvo's stated goal is that no one should die in one of their cars. They plan to achieve this by 2020.
I have admiration for Volvo just for this line of thought.

http://money.cnn.com/2016/01/20/luxu...ash-cars-2020/
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Old 20th May 2016, 20:43   #337
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Default Re: More Indian cars face Global NCAP crash tests. Edit: ZERO for all

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Originally Posted by volkman10 View Post
Only Toyota (Liva) and VW (Polo) have got 'decent' G NCAP ratings for the cars plying on Indian roads.

G NCAP has not tested Ford's Ecosport that is 'Made For India'!
I think Ecosport in India should be a damn safe car, just my opinion based on a recent accident where a bus collided head on with our parked Ecosport damaging only the headlights, bumper, alloy and fender, but still I'm curious to know the real scores.

One question, I believe only cars with ESP get 5 Stars, correct me if wrong, which is why the Vento TSI got 5 stars, which also means Etios got the highest safety rating and possibly could score 5 stars if equipped with ESP.

I read some where Duster scored 3 stars so the AWD version should score higher as it has ESP. So Duster is safer than some of its peers.

What we know are only the frontal collision results, I'm assuming most cars would fare poorly in the side impact tests as crumple zones have little play and only a handful of cars have curtain airbags, still how much can a side airbag do.

Not wanting to go off topic, riding a bike with complete certified gear is safer than travelling in some of these hatchbacks in India, isn't it, it's another matter that in India people scoff at such ideas (riding gear).

Somebody should pass a law making it compulsory for 2 wheeler folks to wear at least a safety jacket (of course with helmet), I'm positive that will also bring down the costs of gear and manufacturers lobby will be willing to help.

Just like we repeatedly hear the Ads on radio run by this govt. for social causes, they should also promote 2 wheeler safety and awareness. Gadkari should take this as a challenge.

Having traveled through MH on the expressway, I can say this, those 2 wheeler guys have no clue how to ride on E ways, hell, half those 100 cc bikes don't even have rear view mirrors. Spending more than a rupee for a km, its a worthless stretch only increasing paranoia.

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Old 20th May 2016, 21:17   #338
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Default Re: More Indian cars face Global NCAP crash tests. Edit: ZERO for all

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Originally Posted by sun_king View Post
Just out of curiosity, what are your thoughts on the bike and scooter drivers travelling in the same lethal roads? Wouldn't they be more vulnerable to the dangerous speeds?
Of course. Two-wheelers are (when I last looked at any statistics; admittedly it has been a while) the most dangerous form of transport, anywhere in the world.

I don't think it is relevant to this thread, except as a reminder that when we discuss these things, we always get fixated on our vehicles and our safety inside them. There is a responsibility to look after ourselves, but there is also a responsibility to others.

I suppose how dangerous are these cars when they hit pedestrians, for example, is a "whole nuther subject."

Yes, I am aware that this is seriously considered in vehicle design (which is one reason why it is murderously stupid to fit stuff like bullbars and flagstaffs.
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Old 20th May 2016, 22:26   #339
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Default Re: More Indian cars face Global NCAP crash tests. Edit: ZERO for all

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom View Post
Thanks for the clarification.

I still think that all this "city driving," line, which we do see often, needs to be dropped from our thinking. It is like saying that city driving is not really dangerous, whereas, once one gets out on the open road, that is when we should be scared.

No: city driving is dangerous. City speeds are dangerous. I am glad that, as an almost-all-city-miles driver, I chose a car with airbags. It's just that recent news on these tests, etc, via Team-BHP and discussions I now regard them as even more important.

It's only city driving --- seems to be an Indian thing. In the only other country where I'm familiar with driving, cities are considered far more dangerous.
1. driving pattern in different cities differ but in most of the big cities, the traffic is on Bumper to Bumper pattern. The cop regulated traffic leaves little room for driving at fast speed.

2. Oh yes, having a car with air bags is always better. We have Dzire ZDI and Ritz ZDI, both equipped with air bags. Who knows that some spoilt son or certain drunk driver may hit you without notice - even in an otherwise peaceful city.
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Old 20th May 2016, 22:39   #340
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Default Re: More Indian cars face Global NCAP crash tests. Edit: ZERO for all

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Originally Posted by s_pphilip View Post
I think Ecosport in India should be a damn safe car, just my opinion based on a recent accident where a bus collided head on with our parked Ecosport damaging only the headlights, bumper, alloy and fender, but still I'm curious to know the real scores.


Somebody should pass a law making it compulsory for 2 wheeler folks to wear at least a safety jacket (of course with helmet), I'm positive that will also bring down the costs of gear and manufacturers lobby will be willing to help.
the following news appeared in today's T.O.I. news portal.

Ford India has recalled around 48,000 units of the diesel variant of EcoSport SUV to correct "potential concerns" with certain vehicles.

The vehicles have been made between April 2013 and June 2014, and the recall has been called to install a new bundle clip on the fuel and brake lines.

Ford India is also writing to customers of approximately 700 EcoSport vehicles, made between January 2016 and February 2016, and fitted with a 60/40 rear folding seat. "On certain vehicles, the 40% rear seat backrest might have been assembled with bolts that do not meet Ford's material specification, potentially causing the bolts to break," the company said.


It is good that Ford was quick to diagnose the problems and recall the cars for fixing the shortcomings.

If a bolt of a seat has a tendency to break, it is serious. Despite having other safety equipment on the car, a broken bolt may result in injuries to the passenger.
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Old 20th May 2016, 22:55   #341
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Default Re: More Indian cars face Global NCAP crash tests. Edit: ZERO for all

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[b][i]In India occupants of Light motor vehicle, (which include cars, SUVs and jeeps) constitute approximately 16.3 % of the total fatalities, making this category the second highest in total road crashes in the country.
I was thinking the same, what about the remaining 83.7 %, somebody should pay attention to that.
Just regulating the car population is like addressing just a page in the book of road accidents or vehicular pollution in India.

Just like there still are auto's, buses, trucks spewing much more thick black smoke than cars, similarly all other forms of public transport is crazily more dangerous than cars will some sort of crumple zones.

I wish interstate buses at least Volvo's have seat belts to start with.
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Old 21st May 2016, 00:49   #342
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Default Re: More Indian cars face Global NCAP crash tests. Edit: ZERO for all

While people are debating the issue of having air bags in all cars and persuading the Government to make NCAP mandatory prior to the launch of the car, there are more serious issues, which need immediate attention.

While Ecosport has decided to recall large number of cars as there was a tendency in the seat bolts of certain batch, to break down even with normal usage.

Now recently launched S-Cross has been found to have serious issues with brakes.
the news, as appeared on TEAM-BHP.com goes as under:


Maruti Suzuki has recalled 20,427 units of the S-Cross manufactured between April 20, 2015 and February 12, 2016. This recall applies to both the variants of S-Cross - DDiS 320 and DDiS 20
The company will inspect a suspected fault and replace a brake part in the vehicles. Maruti's dealers will contact the owners of the impacted vehicles. The inspection and replacement will be done free of cost.

it appears thatQuality Controldepartments of the car companies are on vacation! If NCAP is assigned the duty to check nut bolts and braking systems of cars, they will find plenty of job to do in India.
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Old 21st May 2016, 10:01   #343
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As a final thought I would like to add that in the Indian scenario if safety devices push up prices, cars may get replaced by bikes which is counterproductive. There has to be a trade off, good structural integrity is of prime importance., a driver airbag is gaining acceptance quickly. ABS and EBD will not come into play in the city and is almost redundant in lighter cars. The Indian situation is quite different from that of UK or US.

I think with good consumer demand, safer cars are not far away but no government regulation is a matter of concern as the auto lobby currently can easily flex their muscle if someone sues them in a court of law for producing totally unsafe cars. (includes 1 batch kwid and go)
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Old 21st May 2016, 11:49   #344
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Default Re: More Indian cars face Global NCAP crash tests. Edit: ZERO for all

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1. driving pattern in different cities differ but in most of the big cities, the traffic is on Bumper to Bumper pattern. The cop regulated traffic leaves little room for driving at fast speed.

Don't know which 'Big' city you are talking about.

I have lived in Delhi for more than 25 years. I am in Pune for last 3 years. Have stayed in Mumbai for close to two years. Have driven extensively in these cities. Travel to Bangalore, Chennai and Kolkata frequently. Although these cities are choked with traffic yet there are quite a lot of roads where you can easily maintain average speeds of 50-60 Kmph.

And yes ABS is quite useful in these circumstances. I am speaking from personal experience of having driven both ABS and non ABS car.

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As a final thought I would like to add that in the Indian scenario if safety devices push up prices, cars may get replaced by bikes which is counterproductive. There has to be a trade off, good structural integrity is of prime importance., a driver airbag is gaining acceptance quickly. ABS and EBD will not come into play in the city and is almost redundant in lighter cars. The Indian situation is quite different from that of UK or US.

I think with good consumer demand, safer cars are not far away but no government regulation is a matter of concern as the auto lobby currently can easily flex their muscle if someone sues them in a court of law for producing totally unsafe cars. (includes 1 batch kwid and go)
By including ABS and airbags in a car the prices can be expected to go up by not more than 40K. This won't tempt a safety conscious society to go towards even more unsafe means of transport. Not even in case of an Alto.

Moreover even if an Alto buyer is tempted to purchase a bike because suddenly Alto is more expensive by 40 odd K, he is still more prone to taking his family along on a highway drive in his Alto than on his bike.

Last edited by vibbs : 21st May 2016 at 12:01.
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Old 21st May 2016, 12:07   #345
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Default Re: More Indian cars face Global NCAP crash tests. Edit: ZERO for all

While Airbags are important, I believe that they are not enough to make a car safe. The structure has to have a certain integrity under the application of rapid deforming stresses.
NCAP measures the impact of a frontal/side collision. I wonder if there's any test to measure the impact of a car toppling on its roof, or getting hit from the back. In these conditions, unless there are curtain airbags, the structure can collapse. While frontal collisions are common on our roads, there are so many examples of cars toppling over after hitting a divider at a high speed or going over a bridge or into a ditch. Sheet metal thickness will certainly play a role in determining the structural integrity of the cabin under such conditions.
I also fail to understand why the cost of safety cannot be supported by the Government to accelerate the adoption of safety standards. We pay almost 13% of the cost of the vehicle as tax to the government and could they not reduce it by a small amount (at least for entry-level cars) to motivate companies to give standard airbags at the same on road price?
There's another thing that I constantly worry about these days-the safety of our public transport vehicles. Except Volvo and the factory built coaches from Tata/AL, there is no assessment of the safety of the buses that are used by operators on inter-city routes. Most of them are built by coach builders who focus on copying the Volvo design elements. But what about including crumple zones?
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