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Old 24th May 2016, 00:04   #391
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Default Re: More Indian cars face Global NCAP crash tests. Edit: ZERO for all

Just came across this for Tata Vista, ,
It gives us an idea about the Zest and Bolt atleast.
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Old 24th May 2016, 00:29   #392
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Default Re: More Indian cars face Global NCAP crash tests. Edit: ZERO for all

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Originally Posted by Captain Haddock View Post
Indian auto industry is still in its infancy.Before throwing bricks at mahindra or Renault one must understand that even detroit produced unsafe cars at one point of time.
No, it is not at all in its infancy. All but a handful are manufacturers are international companies anyway.
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Today all we can ask is a decent body shell and a driver airbag maybe.
How about asking for the same structural safety that they are manufacturing for other countries. Perhaps even making in India and exporting?

There is no reason to make such excuses for the industry, although they probably welcome it.
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Old 24th May 2016, 03:50   #393
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Default Re: More Indian cars face Global NCAP crash tests. Edit: ZERO for all

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Sorry for a little Off topic question, Which car was your's? Just curious to know since you mentioned the seat belts became very tight.
I was driving BMW 328i. The damage was significant as the car had to be totaled.
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Old 24th May 2016, 05:29   #394
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Just came across this for Tata Vista,
It gives us an idea about the Zest and Bolt atleast.
Small overlap test is a difficult one to pass and many marquee brands didn't pass when IIHS started testing it in 2015 in USA. As far as I remember all models of Volvo and Subaru passed the small overlap test.

For example, check this for
BMW 3 Series.

The BMW 3 series sedan was redesigned for the 2012 model year. Beginning with 2016 models, a front suspension change was made to better control wheel movement during small overlap frontal crashes. The change, however, wasn't enough to improve the car's performance in the small overlap test.

Structure
The driver's space was not maintained well, with maximum intrusion of the lower interior of 31 cm at the footrest. Upper interior intrusion was much less, measuring 8 cm at the upper hinge pillar and 5-6 cm at the instrument panel. The dummy's right foot was trapped between the brake pedal and toepan, and the pedal had to be cut off to free the foot.

Injury measures
Measures from the dummy indicate that injuries to the left lower leg, left foot, and right lower leg would be possible in a crash of this severity.

Compare that to
Subaru Impreza
Structure
The driver space was maintained well, with maximum intrusion of the lower interior of 12 cm at the footrest and maximum intrusion of the upper interior of 4 cm.

Injury measures
Measures taken from the dummy indicate a low risk of any significant injuries in a crash of this severity.
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Old 24th May 2016, 07:25   #395
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Default Re: More Indian cars face Global NCAP crash tests. Edit: ZERO for all

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Originally Posted by Captain Haddock View Post
Indian auto industry is still in its infancy.Before throwing bricks at mahindra or Renault one must understand that even detroit produced unsafe cars at one point of time.
Wow! Indian auto industry is in its 'infancy'? Automobiles are being manufactured in India for over 50 years. The opening up of the market to global OEMs happened 20 years ago. Indian OEMs like Tata and Mahindra developed their own indigenous models back in the 90's. How many more decades does the industry need to get out of its infancy?

Do you think Renault and Mahindra do not make safe cars for domestic market because they still don't know how to? Do you realize that these OEMs are building export spec crash-tested cars and selling them overseas?

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Originally Posted by Captain Haddock View Post
As long as entry level cars replace the family scooter,its a big improvement in safety.
Sorry, but your expectations seem to be stuck in a time-warp from over 3 decades ago! The scooter being replaced by entry level cars is a very old story, my friend. The more premium hatchbacks and compact sedans sell as much as any entry level car these days. People are paying in excess of half-a-million rupees for these cars. They can definitely afford to pay a bit more for safety!

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I think the project is partly humanitarian.
Thank you. That was indeed funny.

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Originally Posted by Captain Haddock View Post
Today all we can ask is a decent body shell and a driver airbag maybe. Implementing US or Euro spec crash tests will put cars out of reach for most.
What makes you think so? The safer body shells are not as expensive as one might think - especially if they are made standard equipment on all variants.
MSIL has added 6000/- to the Alto800's price for a driver airbag. If the entry level cars become 20000/- more expensive because they are crash-worthy and come with 2 airbags, will they suddenly go out of reach of car buyers? They won't. The extra 20000/- will be a small amount in EMI terms.

Ultimately, it is only the auto industry and its complacence and severe lack of ethics that has to be blamed. There is no other excuse for selling death-traps to ill-informed buyers.
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Old 24th May 2016, 10:02   #396
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Default Re: More Indian cars face Global NCAP crash tests. Edit: ZERO for all

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Originally Posted by Captain Haddock View Post
Indian auto industry is still in its infancy.Before throwing bricks at mahindra or Renault one must understand that even detroit produced unsafe cars at one point of time.
The Indian auto industry can't be considered to be at it's infancy. The Indian Auto industry has evolved tremendously, especially in the last 25 years. We've got almost all world class manufacturing technologies and we export cars which perform well in crash tests.

It's the manufacturers that give step-motherly treatment to Indian versions are cars because our road safety policy which is an like infant since it's birth and has never matured. We can copy and implement United Nations Decade of Action for Road Safety 2011-2020, but the government doesn't want to.

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As long as entry level cars replace the family scooter,its a big improvement in safety.
That's just like one of many answers given my the car makers to defend their road unworthy car.

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Implementing US or Euro spec crash tests will put cars out of reach for most.
Even if a car's price goes up (say by INR 30000), we can have a system where insurance premiums will vary with the crash rating of the car. This should ensure that a 5 star rated car can have a low insurance premium. The additional principle amount on the car can be recovered in savings in the insurance premiums over a couple of years.

Also, as other members mentioned, a small increase in price is nothing in terms of EMIs.

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air con,fog lamps,power steering and sterio
Except for a music system, I don't think any of the above can be eliminated.
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Old 24th May 2016, 10:58   #397
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Default Re: More Indian cars face Global NCAP crash tests. Edit: ZERO for all

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Originally Posted by mayankk View Post
Who needs dummies in India? Put a shiny in the car, you will have dummies lined up.
Absolutely correct. All those cars which fared badly in NCAP tests are actually the best sellers in India. Take celerio, for example. at least 10 people in my friend circle and neighborhood ''upgraded' to celerio in last one year. Hyundai Eon is the darling of first time car buyers and Scorpio is the dream SUV of youngsters in rural and urban India. All these things point to one fact that, we Indians don't care about safety. Show us something new and shiny with a Suzuki/Hyundai logo on it and we jump in the line and buy it. Some of these cars (Eon) even have a place reserved on the dashboard to keep idols of your beloved gods and deities as they know that you need all the divine blessings that you can get when you drive their cars on road
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Old 24th May 2016, 11:35   #398
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DEAR FRIENDS,

Hello to fellow Team BHP Brethrens. Had been quietly reading and following the debate, mostly after the recent publication of the crash test results. One thing is very clear. Most Indians are Confused and Baffled by the test result. Most educated and 99% fellow Brethrens are Enraged by the Betrayal by the Home Grown and Trusted brands.

One thing to remember is, after today's publishing of the test results by CSE Labs for the the 'BREAD, PAO, BURGER AND PIZZA' Industry is, that, we Educated , White collar Professionals are responsible for most of the Mess, in our Country regarding, Food, Beverages,Drinking Water, Environment, Medicine, Building, Roads, Vehicle 9car, bus, trucks, etc) Safety, to name a few .

Who is to be Blamed for all these.

Bureaucrats:- Yes, they are us only, young I.A.S., OR SCIENTIST ARE MANNING ALL THE MAJOR DECISION MAKING POSTS. ALL 1980-S BATCHES ARE NEARLY RETIRING, AND VERY FEW .

Scientific Departments of the Government: Yes, again, all young and highly educated are manning and heading the government department. Nearly all heads visit E.U, OR US OR SOUTH EAST COUNTRIES, once a year, to update their knowledge base and training.

Government Regulatory Bodies and Other Watchdogs:- Mostly headed by Ex- Bureaucrats and staffed by B-or C Grade Reserved Category People, but again; Educated, and Trained by white collar professionals, from time to time. (as far as i know, their training calendars is about 25-30 days per year, as government understands the necessity to train the department personnel, to keep abreast with the latest in the field.

Re-Commendatory bodies: Hardly any existed till 2014; now a few are there, but all related with financial institutions. here again, white collar, scholars are manning the posts.

So Friends, now if we look on the other sides, all MNCs , and Indian Industries are headed by highly educated Youths or middle aged people, who have studied in India or Abroad. Very people like Lallo , or Mamata or Mayavati or Mulayam or Say Rahul or Sonia.

Coming to point, All these highly influential people have jammed the inflow of technology and wherewithal required to uplift the lives of the common users. Its not the White People who have denied the technology or the resources. Its our own, who have stood in front of the boards, and said, " Sir, Not required, We will mange the Government. Sir, Indian People not able to digest, progress, Sir. Sir, Sir Sir Please Sir. : Whether its our own google head Pichola or microsoft head or nissan or renault or any. We know how we indians postulate before the white skin or even our company heads.

Its from my experience in medical field, abroad, for last 23 years and the same for my wife's in building industry, in middle east, EU AND south east Asia.

Hope i have been able to put my case. Its upto, us indians, who have to demand and press our case in each place where we work and take our salary from, for our fellow countrymen.

Last edited by Zappo : 24th May 2016 at 13:13. Reason: back to back posts merged.
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Old 24th May 2016, 12:41   #399
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom View Post
Consider the implications of a biker involved in an accident with your vehicle.
Spot on, helmets do not only affect the wearer's safety, they can indirectly affect the third-party safety and worse their family's. That is one thought as scary as getting into a high speed accident with a vehicle bigger than yours.

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Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom View Post
OK, let's compromise heret: No need to wear a helmet when riding a bike in one's own house?
, you made me smile, thanks!

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Originally Posted by acurafan View Post
This innocuous sounding feature is truly an important feature for any car. Last year my car was rear-ended by someone who didn't notice the signal was red at around 80-90 kmph.
I realized I was hit when the seat-belt tightened so much that it was difficult to breath. It was easy for me to walk out of the crash without a scratch and with no whiplash was entirely due to a strong mechanical design and a seat belt pre-tensioner.
Apologies for this post moderators, noticed that the question I am asking has already been answered. Please delete the post, apologies again.

Last edited by Zappo : 24th May 2016 at 13:14. Reason: Back to back posts merged.
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Old 24th May 2016, 13:02   #400
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Default Re: More Indian cars face Global NCAP crash tests. Edit: ZERO for all

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Originally Posted by Captain Haddock View Post
Indian auto industry is still in its infancy.Before throwing bricks at mahindra or Renault one must understand that even detroit produced unsafe cars at one point of time.

As long as entry level cars replace the family scooter,its a big improvement in safety.

I saw Ratan Tata explaining how he came up with the nano project after seeing a family on a scooter battling mumbai rains.I think the project is partly humanitarian.

Today all we can ask is a decent body shell and a driver airbag maybe.

Implementing US or Euro spec crash tests will put cars out of reach for most.

Personally I would like to see manufacturers improve safety in entry level by eliminating features like air con,fog lamps,power steering and sterio ,which will keep the costs down and they can use this margin to improve safety.
A very sensible post in a sea of madness, but then sir the "youngest" light passenger vehicle manufacturer in India, Tata Motors, seem to fare much better that companies with a well established presence in this segment (MS, Hyundai, Ford, Renault) and those who had foreign collaboration (Mahindra). The Indica was known to be a safe car, and the Vista got a 3 star rating much before the GNCAP hullabaloo. Besides, Tata is the only only manufacturer who developed an in-house crash test facility long ago, which is still perhaps the only one in the country. So what excuse do the big players have to scrimp on safety?

The answer perhaps lies in the Indian consumer and his supposedly rational choices. Look at the sale of TATA cars. And compare them to the number of tin cans on the road. That pretty much summarises the entire argument.
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Old 24th May 2016, 14:27   #401
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Default Re: More Indian cars face Global NCAP crash tests. Edit: ZERO for all

I for one disagree that the government should make certain safety equipment mandatory. Primarily because it implies that the Govt is more intelligent and can make the better choice with regards to such stuff. I find that line of thinking parochial and out of place. Imagine if someone in the Govt decided that all cars will come with an electronic speed limit of 80kph. It's a much easier fix than putting airbags, ABS etc and can be easily retrofitted in all ECU as well. Some idiots will still find a way to cause massive damages.

The Govt should focus on educating. Jago Grahak Jago is the right way to go. The video of eunuchs at a traffic signal asking people to belt up is in the right direction.

The only person fit to decide is the consumer. And the consumer continues to choose in favour of these cars. Who are we to tell a person what safety feature she should buy just because we made a different choice?
Make your own choice and don't try to berate the choice of others.

Any person inherently knows the value of her life. However, that doesn't mean that everyone goes and buys insurance. Risk management is a function of probability and impact. Most people do the math and conclude that the cost of insuring is just too high. They choose to self-insure. A similar example would be in the area of car insurance. So many people have only the 3rd party insurance, many have none!

We trying to define mandatory safety specs is like some few thousand Twitter users deciding whether the poor sod who doesn't pay for 2G should have access to a restricted world of access.
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Old 24th May 2016, 14:43   #402
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Default Re: More Indian cars face Global NCAP crash tests. Edit: ZERO for all

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Originally Posted by Captain Haddock View Post
Indian auto industry is still in its infancy.
Lets keep global players aside, even our very own Maruti Suzuki is mature enough to produce safe cars for imports but not for the domestic market.
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Originally Posted by Captain Haddock View Post
As long as entry level cars replace the family scooter,its a big improvement in safety.
Just curious, the base Tata Nano is 2.26lakh, Bajaj CT100 is 38034, Honda Navi is 41401, KTM RC390 is 2.22lakh, all are ex-showroom Kolkata. How many of these CT100, Navi buyers stretch their budget 6 times and buy a Nano? How many of these RC390 buyers buy a Nano instead of the KTM for the same price?
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Originally Posted by Captain Haddock View Post
Implementing US or Euro spec crash tests will put cars out of reach for most.
Yes sir you are right, 1 USD=68 INR & 1 Euro=75 INR, so our fellow Indian's life is definitely 68/75 times lower compared to their American or European counterparts.
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Old 24th May 2016, 16:16   #403
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I think this is consumers choice. It's a risk factor.

Personal example - I wear a helmet, jacket and gloves on two wheelers, where as my dad doesn't. One day after sitting for a while and speaking with him, I realised that he has accepted the risk and still doesn't want to wear a helmet. So that's an informed decision. While I'm completely against such behaviour, I do understand the fact that it's ultimately his choice to make. We - teamBHPians - can only ensure that the consumer is aware of the risks. That's all. For a celerio owner, buying a safe car may not be more important than 4 speakers and a good head unit. But yes, those of who brought these airbag equipped cars thinking they are safe should be refunded by the maker.
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Old 24th May 2016, 17:18   #404
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Default Re: More Indian cars face Global NCAP crash tests. Edit: ZERO for all

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Originally Posted by blackwasp View Post
Personal example - I wear a helmet, jacket and gloves on two wheelers, where as my dad doesn't. One day after sitting for a while and speaking with him, I realised that he has accepted the risk and still doesn't want to wear a helmet. So that's an informed decision. While I'm completely against such behaviour, I do understand the fact that it's ultimately his choice to make.
This is an extremely important point that you've made!!

I had recently shared a brief story on how my father-in-law met with another accident while on a two-wheeler. He can afford an S-class but decides to use his scooter because its convenient in the narrow lanes of Chandni Chowk.

When I spoke to him his attitude towards riding a two-wheeler was similar. He, like many millions in India, rely much more on their deity instead of worrying about how a two-wheeler is extremely unsafe compared to a car.

He says, jo hona hai woh already likha hai, time se pehle mujhe kuch nahin hoga (Whatever is supposed to happen is predestined, before my time nothing can happen to me)

And this is after he's had several minor accidents and recently when he broke 2 or 3 of his ribs and lost a lot of flesh n blood in his hands and legs.

Another incident which should explain how many people's mind works is when I left my Swift parked at my in-laws' place when I went for a vacation abroad. One night before I came back some crooks decided to make off with car batteries in the lane where my car was also parked.

Now many of you would know that a Wagon-R (not sure about the latest model though) has a bonnet opening mechanism which can be operated with ease by simply getting underneath the car and which is why its a battery thief's favourite. Long story short, I was told that the only reason my car battery was left was because there was laddu-gopal (Baby Krishna) idol which was unintentionally left by my wife in the car. We were supposed to hand it over to them but somehow left it in the car.

So, godspeed to the illiterate (and idiot) car buyer who thinks that the Ganesha idol (no offence) on the dashboard is way more protective than an airbag or ABS.
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Old 24th May 2016, 18:28   #405
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Default Re: More Indian cars face Global NCAP crash tests. Edit: ZERO for all

Despite these crash tests showing the safety of these cars at dangerous levels, people will still buy them. When a Person thinks of saving the extra 1L at the cost of risking his life than asking for a safer model we cant expect things to get fixed soon. I have seen my own friends who have bought Mid variants giving the excuse that we dont drive at dangerous speeds and "city me Airbags aur ABS ki kya jarurat hai". The price difference was hardly about 60-80K which they infact spent later for wheels and audio upgrades, infact more than that. I feel pity but at the same time I know that money has gained more importance than one's Life. My neighbour bought a Scorpio home after seeing this video I was shocked. He refuted to believe it.

Maruti is trying to test the waters by giving the option of ABS/Airbags on the lower end models to see the demand. Infact I observed couple of colleagues in my office option for LXI Swift with Airbags because it was a little over budget(between 6-6.4L). They compromised on ACC and manual windows but went for Airbag options. This is the kind of consumers we need who can force the manufacturer to safety priority than trying to sell models without safety equipments and features. We have so many unnecessary features which otherwise can be compensated by using other wireless devices available in the market today than compromising on safety.

We Indians need to have a mindset change to demand the right things though we are doing it to an extent, that extent is not enough to induce manufacturers to make safety features mandatory in every car.
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