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Old 24th May 2016, 19:55   #406
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We should view this debate from a competitive advantage point of view. So unless the top mfg show the way it has to be legalized for everyone for a level playing field (read cost advantage).
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Old 24th May 2016, 22:39   #407
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Default Re: More Indian cars face Global NCAP crash tests. Edit: ZERO for all

A little metaphysical/philosophical aside, but I think it is appropriate

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Originally Posted by fine69 View Post
He says, jo hona hai woh already likha hai, time se pehle mujhe kuch nahin hoga (Whatever is supposed to happen is predestined, before my time nothing can happen to me)
I had someone who would not want to be called a guru, or a spiritual teacher, or similar, but for want of better words, lets call her that. Her belief: you cannot go until the date on your return ticket.

But you can spend the rest of your days in agony in a hospital bed, loose limbs, become a cabbage, etc etc. You might have a long time to wait until the return date, and it might be very unpleasant. Your family might not enjoy it much either, Or have much money left at the end of the process.

So, with due respect for people's beliefs and all that, they just might want to think a little deeper. Because they might be absolutely right, but not quite in the way that they suppose.
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Old 25th May 2016, 02:07   #408
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Default Re: More Indian cars face Global NCAP crash tests. Edit: ZERO for all

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Originally Posted by mayankk View Post
low-IQ/unscrupulous sales people, who get away with the "In-city" uselessness of AntiBrakingSystem and Airbags on which you bounce off and can geta hurta real bad.
+1 to this!
Some reputed auto companies had put a stall in our office campus showcasing the new vehicles and I happened to hear the conversation between one of the so called company "expert" guiding a prospective customer. When the gent asked a question on whether ABS is required and Airbags are needed, this fellow was making a statement that ABS is absolutely useless in the city!! and airbags is very expensive to repair and is not covered under insurance, so it is better not to go for it!

When I interrupted him and told him that he's wrong, he was vociferously defending the statement and also told that he has data and statistics to prove that!! God help customers if morons like this are the sales advisors of auto companies, giving "guidance" to the customers!

Last edited by haria : 25th May 2016 at 02:10. Reason: Removed the auto companies name in the 1st sentence
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Old 25th May 2016, 14:52   #409
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Viju View Post
Wow! Indian auto industry is in its 'infancy'? Automobiles are being manufactured in India for over 50 years.


Sorry, but your expectations seem to be stuck in a time-warp from over 3 decades ago! The scooter being replaced by entry level cars is a very old story, my friend. The more premium hatchbacks and compact sedans sell as much as any entry level car these days.


What makes you think so? The safer body shells are not as expensive as one might think - especially if they are made standard equipment on all variants.

Ultimately, it is only the auto industry and its complacence and severe lack of ethics that has to be blamed. There is no other excuse for selling death-traps to ill-informed buyers.
When I said auto industry is still in it's infancy, I meant that purchasing power of Indians is lower than the west. An American mid level employee drives a corolla, while in India the average employee drives nothing more than a alto maybe

We cannot compromise structural integrity and maybe a driver airbag.
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Old 25th May 2016, 21:59   #410
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Default Re: More Indian cars face Global NCAP crash tests. Edit: ZERO for all

Anybody here read of Rajiv Bajaj's alleged reply to Global NCAP's mail requesting him to attend a Safety Conference and speak on the Qute quadricycle?

Motorbeam has an article on it, I am not going to link it since I cannot verify its authenticity yet but his reply to them was in very poor taste if it is a genuine mail reply.

For the uninitiated, Mr.Bajaj wasn't happy about the negative coverage of his upcoming quadricycle, the Qute as it scored a 1 star rating and Global NCAP asked the manufacturer to make certain changes so it can get a higher rating and be road worthy as a public transport.

In the alleged mail reply, Mr.Bajaj says that the Qute is still an improvement over existing autos and mopeds.
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Old 26th May 2016, 07:58   #411
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Default Re: More Indian cars face Global NCAP crash tests. Edit: ZERO for all

Global NCAP describes new Renault 's KWID as “clearly sub-standard''

Quote:
It is very surprising that a manufacturer like Renault introduced the Kwid initially lacking this essential feature. Global NCAP strongly believes that no manufacturer anywhere in the world should be developing new models that are so clearly sub-standard
http://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-s...medium=twitter
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Old 26th May 2016, 10:05   #412
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Default Re: More Indian cars face Global NCAP crash tests. Edit: ZERO for all

lets understand NCAP crash test first. It only measures impact at 64kmph when the car hits a stationary barrier (supposed to show a rear ending impact) and the impact is measured. How realistic is this scenario in India? How many accidents are because car A has rear ended car B at 64kmph? The test doesn't claim to simulate real life Indian traffic and roads where in a car can hit/be hit by a truck, a bus, a cyclist, jaywalkers, stones on the road, barriers erected by police, tree trunk, animals and what not. Is there a safety standard to protect occupants from these and more? Can any car protect occupants from amazingly impossible accidents which pop up regularly on our accidents in India thread? Look at our mentality in the first place. We want all kinds of impact beams welded on all sides of the car, yet the car must not exceed 1000kgs in weight, must corner like a formula 1 car, must sip fuel at 50kmpl and must accelerate 0-100 in less than 10 seconds, and yes we must pay peanuts to buy all of this. Coming to peanuts we all know what happens when one throws peanuts don't we?
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Old 26th May 2016, 10:13   #413
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Default Re: More Indian cars face Global NCAP crash tests. Edit: ZERO for all

While NCAP tests don't simulate all the various accidents that can possible occur, they do simulate good ones, which should give the buyer a fair idea of how the car survives crashes.
And yeah, a combination of change in both the government's and car buyer's attitude is needed to set things right..
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Old 26th May 2016, 12:28   #414
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Default Re: More Indian cars face Global NCAP crash tests. Edit: ZERO for all

Secretary General of Global NCAP comments - India's chance to set global safety norms for quadricycles and why he thinks India has received Global NCAP test results better than Europe in the initial stage.

Here is a recap, Two of the current cars ( base variant) plying on Indian roads with credible G NCAP crash ratings!

More Indian cars face Global NCAP crash tests. Edit: ZERO for all-2.jpg
More Indian cars face Global NCAP crash tests. Edit: ZERO for all-1.jpg

http://www.autocarpro.in/video/autoc...bal-ncap-19885

Last edited by volkman10 : 26th May 2016 at 12:29.
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Old 26th May 2016, 16:12   #415
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Default Re: More Indian cars face Global NCAP crash tests. Edit: ZERO for all

Quote:
Originally Posted by lurker View Post
without airbag cars can get 1 star for cabin integrity.

for eg
Check out Latin American NCAP
Fiat Palio ELX 1.4 without airbag : - 1 star
Fiat Palio ELX 1.4 with airbag: - 3 star
The Palio test that you are referring to is done in 2010 and it used v1.1 of Latin NCAP protocol. The current protocol for Latin NCAP is v3.0. The head injury criteria in that protocol is tremendously less stringent that what the current criteria is!

Without getting too technical, here are the numbers

Head Injury Criteria:
2010 - 650 & 1000 (upper limit & lower limit resp.)
2016 - 500 & 700 (upper limit & lower limit resp.)


Note: Higher the number, worse is the performance.

Simply put, if the same current protocol is applied to the 2010 Palio, it is deemed to get 0 stars.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom View Post
Isn't it a case of no airbags equals fail?

In which case, there is hardly any point in testing a no-air-bag car. They might as well just stamp it Fail and return it undamaged.
In a way yes, but that wouldn't make us understand about the structural integrity of the base variants of the cars plying on our roads.

It's good on GNCAP's part that they are doing this. At least now these things have started making some noise and eventually will raise awareness and will cause people to rethink their priorities.

Let's hope so!

Last edited by teemus : 26th May 2016 at 16:24. Reason: missed a word
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Old 26th May 2016, 16:34   #416
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Default Re: More Indian cars face Global NCAP crash tests. Edit: ZERO for all

Quote:
Originally Posted by acurafan View Post
Sorry to say, but this is very untrue. NCAP safety tests are one of the most multi-faceted test available in the industry and they are constantly modifying the test procedure. I work on active safety and it is a constant challenge for my team to keep our nose ahead of the changing scenarios.
Thank you for this detailed explanation. I was searching for something like this to understand the buzz around NCAP ratings. As a layman on seeing only the crash video it does appear as if the cars are crashed against a stationary box and evaluated on their crash worthiness or the lack of it.
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Old 26th May 2016, 17:02   #417
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Default Re: More Indian cars face Global NCAP crash tests. Edit: ZERO for all

Quote:
Originally Posted by volkman10 View Post
Global NCAP describes new Renault 's KWID as “clearly sub-standard''
This is huge disappointment. The KWID looked to me like the best small car available. I relied too much on mere external appearances

Quote:
Originally Posted by apachelongbow View Post
lets understand NCAP crash test first. ... ... ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by acurafan View Post
Sorry to say, but this is very untrue. NCAP safety tests are one of the most multi-faceted ... ... ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by apachelongbow View Post
Thank you for this detailed explanation. ... ... ...
Thank you both, acurafan for the wonderful informed post (with more promised ) and apachelongbow for prompting it. I suppose that most of us see just one video, and then think that that is all there is to the test. Looking forward to reading yet more.

It seems that not only the manufacturers, but a lot of buyers, seem to think that the chanting the phrase Indian conditions is some sort of get-out clause. This is a myth (mythconception?) that needs to be got rid of.
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Old 26th May 2016, 18:05   #418
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Default Re: More Indian cars face Global NCAP crash tests. Edit: ZERO for all

Quote:
Originally Posted by apachelongbow View Post
lets understand NCAP crash test first. It only measures impact at 64kmph when the car hits a stationary barrier (supposed to show a rear ending impact) and the impact is measured. How realistic is this scenario in India?
Sorry but your inference of the test is incorrect. The impact is on a stationary non-rigid (deformable) barrier. The barrier in this case represents an oncoming car. So the 64kmph should be inferred as 2 cars travelling in opposite direction with speed of 32kmph each (relative velocity). Now this isn't such an uncommon scenario here in India, is it?

Moreover, it's not the impact that is measure, the dummies have various accelerometers and sensors and the complete kinematics are studied. Also, there are different injury criteria for Head, Chest, Neck, Knee, Femur, Pelvis, Lower leg, Foot and Ankle. Each of these parts are checked for the respective injury criteria and ratings are derived from those results.

There goes lot of science and even more study behind all this so let's not write off these tests.

One thing that the OEM's here are saying is that the cars pass the 56kmph tests but GNCAP is testing at 64kmph which, by giving the benefit of doubt, can be considered a valid argument.

If only someone would crashtest these cars at 56kmph so that the argument can be put to test.
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Old 26th May 2016, 18:45   #419
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Default Re: More Indian cars face Global NCAP crash tests. Edit: ZERO for all

Quote:
Originally Posted by teemus View Post
Onething that the OEM's here are saying is that the cars pass the 56kmph tests but GNCAP is testing at 64kmph which, by giving the benefit of doubt, can be considered a valid argument.

If only someone would crashtest these cars at 56kmph so that the argument can be put to test.
Is it? I think no OEM has claimed they will get atleast a NCAP star at 56. They just had a comment that most crash tests are done at 56 and the test in question was done at 64.

All the OEM claim is they pass CMV 1989 rules, which specify bare minimum concept of a car (like to ensure OEM don't use plastic or fibre instead of steel).
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Old 26th May 2016, 19:22   #420
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Default Re: More Indian cars face Global NCAP crash tests. Edit: ZERO for all

Pardon me but which were these 56km/hr crash tests these manufacturers claim they have already passed? This 56km/hr is just mumbo jumbo.

The unscrupulous way in which Renault tried to pass these tests should open our eyes at last to never trust corporations made to earn profits.
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