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Old 6th May 2016, 17:48   #1
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Default Govt to incentivize the retrofitment of mild hybrid systems in old cars?


  • To reduce emission pollution from existing vehicles.
  • Policy to replace both Petrol and Diesel engines and is in line with 'FAME' scheme.
  • Roadmap finalised after meeting and inputs from the car industry.
  • Ministry officials also met with Bosch and Cummins representatives.
  • Road ministry proposes to offer incentives upto Rs 30,000.
  • Road ministry now in talks with Heavy industries ministry on ironing out implementation issues.
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Old 7th May 2016, 11:19   #2
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Default re: Govt to incentivize the retrofitment of mild hybrid systems in old cars?

That's certainly heartening news for owners of 1st generation Scorpios like me. I am quite attached to my 11-going-on-12-year old and would love to give it a new lease of life with a CNG conversion, or a new emissions-compliant diesel engine, such as the new under 2-litre unit aimed at the Delhi market!
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Old 7th May 2016, 13:02   #3
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Default re: Govt to incentivize the retrofitment of mild hybrid systems in old cars?

Is putting a new engine onto an old vehicle that simple ? New engines are meant to work with newer vehicles and there may be compatibility problems with the powertrain ( eg the clutch ) , etc. with older vehicles. There are probably other factors like compatibility with the ECU , the emission system - can someone comment ?

Having a policy is good but the technical feasibility and cost factors are crucial to the success of such measures.

Last edited by sdp1975 : 7th May 2016 at 13:04.
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Old 7th May 2016, 13:41   #4
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Default re: Govt to incentivize the retrofitment of mild hybrid systems in old cars?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sdp1975 View Post
Having a policy is good but the technical feasibility and cost factors are crucial to the success of such measures.

This idea/ concept is totally impractical and not feasible and good in paper only. Finally when it became to cost factor one will realize to dispose the old vehicle and purchase a new vehicle.

List of minimum work done (as per my knowledge):
1. Making arrangement to fit the new engine onto old frame/ chassis.
2. New engine (and new MPFI/ CRDE system)
3. All electrical
4. Clutch
5. Gear box
6. Drive shaft and related suspension components
7. Air conditioner infrastructure
8. New speedo console

Now what is rest?

Say a man go for all this changes for a BS-III Dzire/ swift petrol version. All mentioned works will not cost less than 4-4.5 Lacks. Definitely the owner will dispose the vehicle for 2.0 Lcks and go for a new baleno/ i20.
-------------------------------------
A better idea is here. (http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...-old-ones.html (15% discount on new vehicles if you junk your old ones))

Last edited by GTO : 9th May 2016 at 17:20. Reason: Typo
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Old 7th May 2016, 13:48   #5
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We should hope it gets implemented! Image a 1.6ddis in a swift/Punto/linea, or 1.4 petrol from Ciaz or Ertiga in swift!

Enthusiast community will be glad for this legal way of swapping engines. Not to mention old cars with outdated and polluting engines ! Swapping an engine will be expensive no doubt, but definitely cheaper than buying the current model on sale.
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Old 7th May 2016, 15:53   #6
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Default re: Govt to incentivize the retrofitment of mild hybrid systems in old cars?

This policy is going to be a restorer's delight.
Every one will be talking about newer engines, but does the policy talk about retrofitting older engines that can go in to much older vehicles? What is that Rs.30,000 they were talking about? Is it a subsidy or a buy back price?
We all have smaller and cheap cars to restore.
Cars like M800s, Altos, Zens, Lancers, Scorpios, Sumos, Balenos can have a new lease of life. Also do not forget, the other engine modifications, currently termed as illegal, may become legal by these type of rules.So, time for turbo chargers and super chargers to rise and shine.Let us keep our fingers crossed.
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Old 7th May 2016, 16:41   #7
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Default re: Govt to incentivize the retrofitment of mild hybrid systems in old cars?

My concerns are mainly on the technical aspects about longevity & safety :

Gearbox,
Engine Mounts,
Suspension,
Brakes,
Exhaust system,
Chassis & body Crash worthiness.

What are the things we needn't worry about ?

I hope govt forms a technically sound & prudent team to formulate the rules & specifications of how & at what kind of place can such works be done.

Eager to learn more!
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Old 7th May 2016, 16:43   #8
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Default re: Govt to incentivize the retrofitment of mild hybrid systems in old cars?

My dream. I can keep my current innova, upgrade the engine, transmission and brakes and continue driving it forever.

Why let an unsafe 20-year old car ply on the road?

While such a policy may seem appealing initially, it's too difficult to implement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sdp1975 View Post
Is putting a new engine onto an old vehicle that simple ?
Nope.
1. Engine mount positions will have to optimised
2. No R&D spends for making engines for older cars. How else do car makers earn their bread and butter if they don't make new cars?
3. Radiator and cooling of systems have to be re-arranged/upgraded to meet the requirements of the new engine.

Quote:
New engines are meant to work with newer vehicles and there may be compatibility problems with the powertrain
A powerful engine with more torque will eat your clutch. It's best coupled with a newer GB with a different set of ratios to help use engine power effectively.

An increase in propulsion power must also result in increased stopping power. Brakes aren't the easiest things to upgrade.

Quote:
There are probably other factors like compatibility with the ECU , the emission system - can someone comment ?
Changing an ECU isn't a headache at all. It's only a small piece of electronic hardware. But implementing more connections to sensors might pose a challenge.

Last edited by GTO : 9th May 2016 at 17:22. Reason: Typo
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Old 7th May 2016, 17:42   #9
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Default re: Govt to incentivize the retrofitment of mild hybrid systems in old cars?

Quote:
Originally Posted by johannskaria View Post
  • Policy to replace both Petrol and Diesel engines and is in line with 'FAME' scheme.
  • Ministry officials also met with Bosch and Cummins representatives.
FAME stands for Faster Adoption and Manufacturing of Hybrid & Electric vehicles. The 30k in benefits will be provided under FAME scheme.

Discussions have happened with Bosch & Cummins representatives.

Sorry to burst the bubble guys but I guess nobody should be under the impression that you can now turbocharge your Swift Petrol/ convert Polo NA 3cyl petrol to TSI.

This benefit will most probably only be available for people retrofitting mild Hybrid systems like these - link

http://www.kpit.com/Revolo/index.html

As per Bosch, their system reduces fuel consumption by 15% thereby reducing CO2 emissions by the same no.

KPIT Cummins Revolo (discussed on Team BHP in the past) makes much higher claims of 30% emissions reduction and 35% more fuel efficiency.

Promoting Such a retrofit can be a big help in lowering the oil import bill of the country alongwith
reduction in CO2 emissions. This is probably what they would be targeting.

Last edited by GTO : 9th May 2016 at 17:22. Reason: Adding link tag :)
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Old 8th May 2016, 15:33   #10
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Default re: Govt to incentivize the retrofitment of mild hybrid systems in old cars?

This could be a boon for those who want to continue driving their yester year classics.
Also to those who have maintained their vehicle spotlessly clean and taken care of it, but unwilling to let it go after any maximum age government fixes, such as 15 years. Such people could retrofit newer engines and drive on.
However, a factory fit is a factory fit. Even if there is a policy, if we try to fit an engine at a workshop, the cost associated could be as high as the purchase price of the vehicle itself.
A side note: Hope the policy covers engine swaps such as throwing away the puny 1.2L engine of a new hatchback and fitting it with a powerful engine - such as imported 3.2L V6 engines
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Old 8th May 2016, 15:50   #11
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Default re: Govt to incentivize the retrofitment of mild hybrid systems in old cars?

Quote:
Originally Posted by (Alok) View Post

This idea/ concept is totally impractical and not feasible and good in paper only. Finally when it became to cost factor one will realize to dispose the old vehicle and purchase a new vehicle.
Quote:
Say a man go for all this changes for a BS-III Dzire/ swift petrol version. All mentioned works will not cost less than 4-4.5 Lacks. Definatly the owner will dispose the vehicle for 2.0 Lcks and go for a new baleno/ i20.
My +1 to this.

Definitely a better idea.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blackwasp View Post
Enthusiast community will be glad for this legal way of swapping engines.
I think there will be some restrictions on what spec engine can go into what car. There will be some limits on either cc or power. So I doubt putting a 1.6 engine in a Zen or Alto will not be permitted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hybridpetrol View Post
This could be a boon for those who want to continue driving their yester year classics.
I think Classic and Vintage cars will be exempt from the 15 year rule.

Quote:
A side note: Hope the policy covers engine swaps such as throwing away the puny 1.2L engine of a new hatchback and fitting it with a powerful engine - such as imported 3.2L V6 engines
I seriously doubt they will even consider this.

If this becomes reality they will probably insist that the new engine is bought from the manufacturer. And manufacturers will price the engine so high that you will want to buy a new car instead. They can make more profits on that. Also they will have to upgrade the service stations to carry out the swap jobs. This costs money which they won't want to spend.
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Old 8th May 2016, 16:15   #12
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Default re: Govt to incentivize the retrofitment of mild hybrid systems in old cars?

To all of you who want to think of putting huge 2.x or 3.x liter engines in your 1.0 or 1.2 liter hatchbacks , here's my response:

You need larger tires, bigger gearboxes, bigger CV shafts to handle the power. Most importantly, you need BIGGER BRAKES.

In short: YOUR DREAM SWAP WILL NOT HAPPEN.

If this policy is implemented (it won't be for sure), you'll end up swapping your 1.2 liter N/A engine for a 0.6 liter turbo engine or similar. You have to be able to drive at the same speeds for which the rest of the parts in the car are designed. Also note, such a move is planned to increase efficiency and reduce pollution, not to have powerful custom cars.

Quote:
throwing away the puny 1.2L engine of a new hatchback and fitting it with a powerful engine - such as imported 3.2L V6 engines
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Old 8th May 2016, 19:19   #13
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Default re: Govt to incentivize the retrofitment of mild hybrid systems in old cars?

If the engine swap finally gets to be a reality. The auto makers would surely need to be involved. As only they would be competent for a transplant & ensure the requisite changes in an older vehicle.

That said - there are a FEW aftermarket mod shops with the technical expertise to do a swap job.


Cheers
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Old 9th May 2016, 17:06   #14
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Default re: Govt to incentivize the retrofitment of mild hybrid systems in old cars?

I think most of you are missing the point that CUMMINS and BOSCH have been called.

There is no Engine swap of the kinds that many may dream.
As pointed out by antz, this is a slip-on technology that helps in cutting the immediate emissions.

And mark my words, this will anyway only happen for the state owned vehicles - based on the scale - to make the project financial viable.

Last edited by alpha1 : 9th May 2016 at 17:11.
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Old 9th May 2016, 17:30   #15
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Default Re: Govt to incentivize the retrofitment of mild hybrid systems in old cars?

Agreed with antz.bin and alpha1. Just the fact that they had meetings with Bosch & Cummins indicates that the government might want to promote the retrofitment of mild hybrid systems. Actually, maybe the government doesn't want to, but Bosch & Cummins have lobbied heavily .

There is no way that the news is about engine swaps. First, whoever wants to do it is already doing it (but at a steep cost). Second, engines can be rebuilt an infinite number of times. In India, 99% of owners will prefer repair over replacement. Lastly, who owns the engines? Car manufacturers! Does anyone think they will willingly supply new engines to the market? Why would they give a new lease of life to old vehicles? In fact, what Maruti & gang want is a full ban on 15+ year old cars!!
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