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Old 16th May 2016, 17:00   #16
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Default re: Toyota says diesel car crackdown is a blow to 'confidence' in India

@ Speed Pujari

No one can give a definite answer to this. India has had a history of unclear, populist and knee jerk regulations, and it is continuing. Today it is NCR, tomorrow some other state might do it to please its voter base by projecting itself as environment-friendly party. Judiciary too is no different. Its judgments off late have been given without thinking about immediate repercussions. Cases in point this ban and the NEET exam. So the risk element will always be there. Even if you buy it now and a ban comes up later, your resale value will come down.

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Old 16th May 2016, 17:00   #17
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Default re: Toyota says diesel car crackdown is a blow to 'confidence' in India

@ Speed Pujari

Once you buy it, you should be able to use it for at least 15 years as you pay life time tax.

Last edited by GTO : 17th May 2016 at 13:46. Reason: Quoted post has been deleted
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Old 16th May 2016, 17:13   #18
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Default re: Toyota says diesel car crackdown is a blow to 'confidence' in India

I agree that for any company which is putting huge investment (not just money but also effort and most importantly time), inconsistency can be a big issue. You can not just replace your assembly line overnight, and for them it also does not matter that specific decision came form Government/Legislation/Judiciary, since they have to follow anyways.

But for Toyota even though they are doing excellent business, looks like they are not able to decode their own success in few segment and create a successful broader strategy, therefore they already have low confidence in Indian market which actually comes from their own low self confidence for any segment other than Fortuner/Innova.

Also Liva/Etios platform's failure is hurting more here, and in current situation you have to anticipate risk if you are only dependent on diesel engines, whatever country is and whoever you blame, hedge/alternate strategy is must.
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Old 16th May 2016, 17:17   #19
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Default re: Toyota says diesel car crackdown is a blow to 'confidence' in India

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Originally Posted by swiftnfurious View Post
Once you buy it, you should be able to use it for at least 15 years as you pay life time tax.
Use it, Yes. Use as you want, maybe. Not entirely improbable, if state govt put restrictions on using in cities, you might end up using the SUV for offroading outside city limits only
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Old 16th May 2016, 17:22   #20
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Default re: Toyota says diesel car crackdown is a blow to 'confidence' in India

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Originally Posted by swiftnfurious View Post
Once you buy it, you should be able to use it for at least 15 years as you pay life time tax.
Or atleast half the year if the odd even rule comes on permanently.
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Old 16th May 2016, 17:31   #21
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Default re: Toyota says diesel car crackdown is a blow to 'confidence' in India

Toyota is one of the biggest automobile manufacturers in the world. They are known for making reliable vehicles. If a company like Toyota feels this way about doing business in India, (which incidentally is one of their key future markets), then it is a time for introspection. They had planned 30 new launches in India from 2016 to 2020. They had plans of launching the Lexus, Vios & Rush here. See link below.
http://www.team-bhp.com/news/insider...s-future-plans

The fact is that we need to make laws and then stick to them. If India is so concerned about pollution, make laws stating what are the permissible limits for emissions, and then ask all manufacturers to achieve that. But, lets not fool ourselves into thinking that the Toyota Innova Diesel is more polluting that the busses and trucks that currently ply on our roads. Or that our fuel quality is the best in the world. Or that vehicular pollution is the major reason for Delhi's woes.

We need to think and act logically. These knee jerk reactions are not doing anything for India's image and more importantly, are not going to reduce pollution in any meaningful manner.

So, we simply ruin their huge investments without getting any meaningful reduction in emissions.

How is that helpful?
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Old 16th May 2016, 17:32   #22
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Default re: Toyota says diesel car crackdown is a blow to 'confidence' in India

Such a statement is highly ironic when coming from Toyota who seem to have taken the mickey out of Diesel variant customers of Toyota Corolla by plonking a sub-standard engine and virtually no options for car costing well over 17L.
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Old 16th May 2016, 17:32   #23
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Default re: Toyota says diesel car crackdown is a blow to 'confidence' in India

It's not easy to shift entire production schedules/lines according to sudden decisions like these. Auto manufacturers have to re-align a ton of things before they can follow the norms which are laid out quite easily (if I may say so) by a court or a tribunal.

Domestic manufacturers might find easy ways to duck under each roadblock which comes up practically overnight these days, but it's tough for a MNC to revamp it's planning and strategy of an entire year in advance, considering that a significant portion of their investments, vendor supplies, etc., are governed by market demand to their respective cars.

Even Honda is finding this out the hard way, now that the market demand has suddenly shifted towards petrols. (Source)

It's not just related to ban of diesel cars with engine capacities of 2,000cc or more. Suddenly, the market perceives this as a deterrent for buying diesel cars altogether. Questions which plague the paying customer now are:

1) What if this ban is stretched across pan-India tomorrow? (don't count it out)

2) What if this ban is extended to diesel cars upto 1,500cc or more? (one public litigation and we might actually see this too!)

3) What if the resale of diesel cars takes a hit? (if it hasn't already)

4) What if car companies stop manufacturing cars with higher engine sizes because they can't ply on most Indian roads?

5) Considering that diesel models are priced at around a lakh rupees (even more, in some cases) over their corresponding petrol models, would I recover my investment if I keep my diesel car for say, 5 years?

Previously, the steep difference between petrol-diesel prices was also a big contributing factor to diesel car purchases. A buyer with even 1,000 kms per month running went for a diesel, just because of the 18-20 rupee price difference between the two fuel types and because he was assured of a guaranteed resale value.

But today, that equation has changed.

The price difference between both fossil fuels has come down drastically (~8 rupees where I live - Rs 55/liter for diesel against Rs 63/liter for petrol), and steps taken like these bans by the Courts.

Now, even those few extra kilometers per liter don't matter anymore.

Toyota, despite it's inert attitude towards the Indian market, has my sympathy. Most car companies such as the Japanese auto giant must be feeling the pinch. More so if even one of their models is a bestseller in our country.

Last edited by RavenAvi : 16th May 2016 at 17:34.
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Old 16th May 2016, 18:05   #24
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Default Toyota says diesel car crackdown blow to 'confidence' in India

This is coming from a company that launched a 15 year old model in the country and it's naive citizens lapped it up. I.e. The Kijang.

The current emissions circus notwithstanding, don't feel at all sorry for a super greedy company like Toyota. They should be thankful of the Indian obsession with their brand which makes people buy atrociously priced bare knuckles products.
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Old 16th May 2016, 18:30   #25
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Default re: Toyota says diesel car crackdown is a blow to 'confidence' in India

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vid6639 View Post
It's not just Toyota whining. Mercedes is going through a tough time as well as their entire lineup of cars cannot be sold in NCR. .

They might not even consider future products just cause of the risks involved with regulations. Same with other manufacturers who will now reconsider future investments.
Selling cars is not an issue as most of them have found alternate ways.

Toyota never considered 'future' products in India. They normally bring outdated products so they need not worry. It's just that they have to either actually plan for future or find some existing product from their international market that can be sold here.
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Old 16th May 2016, 18:33   #26
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Default re: Toyota says diesel car crackdown is a blow to 'confidence' in India

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Originally Posted by sourabhzen View Post
Selling cars is not an issue as most of them have found alternate ways.

Toyota never considered 'future' products in India. They normally bring outdated products so they need not worry. It's just that they have to either actually plan for future or find some existing product from their international market that can be sold here.
The Innova crysta, Corolla Altis, Camry and soon to be launched fortuner are nowhere near outdated. Toyota tried with the Qualis but after that we are very much getting the current products and latest products.

The etios was developed from scratch for developing markets and is the current model in Brazil even today.
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Old 16th May 2016, 19:12   #27
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Default re: Toyota says diesel car crackdown is a blow to 'confidence' in India

Toyota as a manufacturer:

1. Toyota overcharges for their products.
2. Toyota provides peace of mind and a relative lower TCO.
3. Toyota declares the price of the product before we pay for it.
4. Toyota, like any other corporation, is for-profit.

An average Indian consumer expectations:

1. I should get a deal every time I want to buy something.
2. I bought the company when I bought one of their products.
3. I want a [3-4]L turbo charged engine under the hood of my car making in excess of 200 ponies, but the first question that needs an answer remains the same "kitna deti hai".
4. Manufacturer should be able to change a software setting in the engine that should reduce the cubic capacity and make it compliant with any rule or regulation that comes along.

Indian judiciary:

1. We are God, you do what we tell you to.
2. We can decide, sitting in our AC cabins surrounded by SPG, what does and does not cause pollution in this free, err controlled by us, world.
3. We picked up 2.0 L because it sounded like a good number to pick that day.
4. We are unelected public servants, not answerable to anyone, can strike down the NJAC or resurrect the NEET on-demand.
5. We will find a way to be in limelight one way or the other.

Now that the basics are out of the way, I think we can all agree that our country will continue to function the way it always does, in an ad-hoc fashion. The courts will continue to run a parallel government, and the love-hate relationship between our government and foreign corporations will continue to ride the sine wave.

Last edited by t2k4 : 16th May 2016 at 19:26. Reason: Fixing typographical error.
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Old 16th May 2016, 19:15   #28
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Default re: Toyota says diesel car crackdown is a blow to 'confidence' in India

I can understand the plight of auto manufacturers, but at the same time better now than never eh? Diesels have had a slightly unfair run here in our country with massive fuel subsidies. Even now diesel still costs less than petrol does. Developed countries in the EU are already banning private diesel cars and I feel that phasing them out is a good step. Ofcourse a proper plan might have benefited the big corporations from saving a bit more money (we sympathize like as if they are cottage industries run by our aunts and uncles), but if the first step is a ban on over 2L capacity diesel motors that effects upto 8% of a company's sales, it is not too bad for cleaner air, less black smoke, highly carcinogenic traffic jams, and less clattery noise. I look forward to seeing more aggressive moves against private diesel vehicles. The time of Beelzebub's fuel must be brought to an end

Last edited by IshaanIan : 16th May 2016 at 19:19.
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Old 16th May 2016, 19:28   #29
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Default re: Toyota says diesel car crackdown is a blow to 'confidence' in India

Quote:
Originally Posted by maven View Post
This is coming from a company that launched a 15 year old model in the country and it's naive citizens lapped it up. I.e. The Kijang.
Not their fault. If the customers had a beef with "old, outdated" products, they should have rejected them outright.

We have been very critical of Toyota's India-specific gesture of plonking the 1.4L diesel in the Altis, but that car was super-successful in the D1 segment till the XUV500 came along.

Why should the car company be blamed if the end customer feels like the product justifies the money he's paying for it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by maven View Post
They should be thankful of the Indian obsession with their brand which makes people buy atrociously priced bare knuckles products.
Tell me the name of one private company who is not in the business for profits, and is working with continuous losses year on year. You can't blame Toyota for being a profit-centric company.


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Originally Posted by sourabhzen View Post
Toyota never considered 'future' products in India. They normally bring outdated products so they need not worry.
Here's Toyota India's current lineup:

Name:  Untitled.JPG
Views: 681
Size:  39.5 KB

Show me a single product in that lineup which is outdated.

We are getting the all-new "global" Fortuner by Diwali, and the all-new "global" Prius by mid-2017.

And, "future" products meaning? Those which are still concealed under their R&D department's warehouses? Come on.

Toyota's problem is not "outdated" products today. They have realised that the Indian market has evolved, and if they are to survive AND be competitive, they will have to treat our market with the maturity it demands. Hence we are getting contemporary products as soon as they are launched globally.

Their problem, inherently, lies with their product pricing. But that's a completely different subject matter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sourabhzen View Post
It's just that they have to either actually plan for future or find some existing product from their international market that can be sold here.
That is exactly what Toyota is asking. What guarantee does the company have that tomorrow they bring a product with specific "Indian court"-centric specifications which does not have a chance of getting banned off the streets tomorrow?

Let's say that Toyota develops a 2,000+cc diesel engine which complies with Euro 6/7 emission norms and is completely Bharat V/VI compliant too.

Will the Toyota cars fitted with that engine be able to be registered in Delhi/NCR? Nope.

For argument's sake, let's say again that Toyota develops a sub-2,000cc diesel engine which complies with every known rule pertaining to diesel engines & emissions in India today.

What guarantee do they have from the Central/State governments and the higher/lower courts to go into mass production for the same for the next fiscal year, considering that the courts roll out rulings quicker than the drop of a hat these days?

As for bigger/smaller diesels and their contribution to pollution, no diesel-powered car is safe.

Britain today, India tomorrow.

Last edited by RavenAvi : 16th May 2016 at 19:32.
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Old 16th May 2016, 19:44   #30
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Default re: Toyota says diesel car crackdown is a blow to 'confidence' in India

@t2k4

Indian judiciary:

1. We are God, you do what we tell you to.
2. We can decide, sitting in our AC cabins surrounded by SPG, what does and does not cause pollution in this free, err controlled by us, world.
3. We picked up 2.0 L because it sounded like a good number to pick that day.
4. We are unelected public servants, not answerable to anyone, can strike down the NJAC or resurrect the NEET on-demand.
5. We will find a way to be in limelight one way or the other.

Now that the basics are out of the way, I think we can all agree that our country will continue to function the way it always does, in an ad-hoc fashion. The courts will continue to run a parallel government, and the love-hate relationship between our government and foreign corporations will continue to ride the sine wave.[/quote]



I think you are being a tad harsh about the Indian Judiciary. They are one part of governance that has been widely respected by all. I agree that there may have been instances of "overstepping" now & then. But I would not agree with your standpoint.

Having said that - we live in a free country, so we all have the right to express out points of view.


Last edited by Ricky_63 : 16th May 2016 at 19:46.
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