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Old 16th May 2016, 20:23   #31
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Default re: Toyota says diesel car crackdown is a blow to 'confidence' in India

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Originally Posted by RavenAvi View Post
Here's Toyota India's current lineup:
Show me a single product in that lineup which is outdated.

We are getting the all-new "global" Fortuner by Diwali, and the all-new "global" Prius by mid-2017.
Not arguing, but is they are not futuristic either. None of the product, except may be Prius, is a technological marvel.

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Originally Posted by RavenAvi View Post
And, "future" products meaning? Those which are still concealed under their R&D department's warehouses? Come on.
In that case, they do not need to worry, do they?

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Originally Posted by RavenAvi View Post
Toyota's problem is not "outdated" products today. They have realised that the Indian market has evolved, and if they are to survive AND be competitive, they will have to treat our market with the maturity it demands. Hence we are getting contemporary products as soon as they are launched globally.

Their problem, inherently, lies with their product pricing. But that's a completely different subject matter.
All other manufacturers are doing it. It is good they started. Pricing is different subject but it constitute the core of the problem.

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That is exactly what Toyota is asking. What guarantee does the company have that tomorrow they bring a product with specific "Indian court"-centric specifications which does not have a chance of getting banned off the streets tomorrow?

Let's say that Toyota develops a 2,000+cc diesel engine which complies with Euro 6/7 emission norms and is completely Bharat V/VI compliant too.

Will the Toyota cars fitted with that engine be able to be registered in Delhi/NCR? Nope.

For argument's sake, let's say again that Toyota develops a sub-2,000cc diesel engine which complies with every known rule pertaining to diesel engines & emissions in India today.

What guarantee do they have from the Central/State governments and the higher/lower courts to go into mass production for the same for the next fiscal year, considering that the courts roll out rulings quicker than the drop of a hat these days?

As for bigger/smaller diesels and their contribution to pollution, no diesel-powered car is safe.

Britain today, India tomorrow.
I would be planning for that 'tomorrow' if I am in the business of manufacturing cars in India, more so as it seems quite a possibility. Also, it is an issue for all brands, not just Toyota. It is the Government of India that need to do serious planning instead of looking the other way from the grave issue of pollution.
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Old 16th May 2016, 20:43   #32
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Default re: Toyota says diesel car crackdown is a blow to 'confidence' in India

Arbitrary changes are part of any company's problems, the companies that will adapt will survive. If Toyota wants to do business in INDIA, they will adapt.

Excellent article from HBR on the above topic.

https://hbr.org/2010/04/the-hidden-r...erging-markets

That said, the rules created by our judiciary and government are very silly, like the XUV500 ground clearance example.
There is a definite scope for improvement in this area, if we want to become a favorite destination for the companies to invest.
It is also unfortunate that we will lose out on the latest technology that the companies have to offer.

Last edited by F150 : 16th May 2016 at 20:47.
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Old 17th May 2016, 13:05   #33
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Default re: Toyota says diesel car crackdown is a blow to 'confidence' in India

Some facts from the previous hearing by the SC on this issue :-

# Observing that the “super rich and (the) show-offs” cannot make the lives of others miserable by polluting the environment, the Supreme Court said that it is in favour of imposing an environment compensatory charge on all diesel vehicles. It extended the ban on registration of diesel vehicles with engine capacity of over 2000 cc in the Delhi-NCR till further orders.

# The bench was informed that the pollution level has come down in the Delhi-NCR after its directives, which included ban on fresh registration of big diesel vehicles, restricting entry of trucks in Delhi and imposition of green cess on commercial vehicles. Over Rs 152 crore had been collected by imposing environment compensatory charges on commercial vehicles.

# According to advocate Aparajita Singh, appearing as amicus curiae, a study by the Supreme Court appointed Environment Pollution Control Authority has suggested that 25 per cent of the cost of a diesel vehicle should be imposed as compensatory charge after taking into consideration the differences in the running cost of diesel and petrol vehicles.

# The court shut the doors on a likely debate whether diesel pollutes more than petrol, after pointing out that the apex court had in 1998 ordered for diesel-run public transport buses to switch over to single fuel mode of CNG and it meant that the issue stood settled regarding diesel being a prime pollutant. The above response was after Mr. Gopal Subramanium, senior advocate appearing on behalf of Mercedes Benz said that his client’s cars are BS VI compliant and run on technologically advanced engines. He disputed the fact that diesel pollutes more than petrol and claimed the difference of emission of particulate matter (pm) between diesel and petrol cars is only 0.004 per cent.

# When a host of counsel representing various automakers (including senior advocate P Chidambaram representing Maruti and senior advocate Kapil Sibal appearing for IT industry body NASSCOM) further pointed out that the 2016 Union Budget has imposed an extra levy called as “Infrastructure cess” on production of vehicles; the court, however, responded:
Quote:
It is not towards environment compensatory charges. We can impose an extra tax. You (car manufacturers) may be passionate about your cars but you must realise that it is your city too and when you step out, you also breathe the same air. So you must help us so that our order for the Delhi-NCR sets the tone for similar orders in other parts of the country.
# The court also took exception to old diesel vehicles being used by the central government, and sought to know from Solicitor General Ranjit Kumar:
Quote:
Why should the government be a polluter? You are using vehicles older than 5-10 years. Are they not polluting? Should they not be removed?
An hour later, when the Solicitor General came back to the court, he said the government has decided to phase out all diesel vehicles older than 10 years and 5 year-old vehicles will either be converted to CNG or will be made battery-run.

Source - Indian Express & other news articles.
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Old 17th May 2016, 13:54   #34
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Default Re: Toyota says diesel car crackdown is a blow to 'confidence' in India

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Originally Posted by Sommos View Post
Some facts from the previous hearing by the SC on this issue :-

# Observing that the “super rich and (the) show-offs” cannot make the lives of others miserable by polluting the environment, the Supreme Court said that it is in favour of imposing an environment compensatory charge on all diesel vehicles. It extended the ban on registration of diesel vehicles with engine capacity of over 2000 cc in the Delhi-NCR till further orders.
So people purchase XUV500's and Innova's because they are super rich or showoffs. Requirements like moving their families in a comfortable and safe vehicle do not matter. A single auto could pollute more than 5 of these big cars, but that's fine- he is a poor auto driver struggling to feed his family.

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# The court shut the doors on a likely debate whether diesel pollutes more than petrol, after pointing out that the apex court had in 1998 ordered for diesel-run public transport buses to switch over to single fuel mode of CNG and it meant that the issue stood settled regarding diesel being a prime pollutant.
I don't even know what to say. Technology has moved on since 1998, and maybe what was a major pollutant in those days, is not as big a culprit now.
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Old 17th May 2016, 14:28   #35
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Default Re: Toyota says diesel car crackdown is a blow to 'confidence' in India

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Originally Posted by t2k4 View Post
Toyota as a manufacturer:

1. Toyota overcharges for their products.
Yep. That's why the less than stellar show in India.

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Originally Posted by t2k4
2. Toyota provides peace of mind and a relative lower TCO.
Arguable. In some cases, apparently, you need to crash "properly" for their airbags to deploy.

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Originally Posted by t2k4
3. Toyota declares the price of the product before we pay for it.
Sure. So do Maruti, Hyundai, Tata ... so on and so forth. So, what's new?

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Originally Posted by t2k4 View Post
4. Toyota, like any other corporation, is for-profit.
Precisely. That's why their word is not God's word and their motives will always be suspect.


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Originally Posted by t2k4 View Post
Indian judiciary:

1. We are God, you do what we tell you to.
Yep. You do have to do what they tell you. That's how it has been defined in the constitution.

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Originally Posted by t2k4 View Post
2. We can decide, sitting in our AC cabins surrounded by SPG, what does and does not cause pollution in this free, err controlled by us, world.
If they can decide sitting in their AC cabins surrounded by SPG, who is the murderer and who too the bribe, why cannot they decide what does and does not pollute?

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Originally Posted by t2k4 View Post
3. We picked up 2.0 L because it sounded like a good number to pick that day.
This is just your imagination. It would be great if you picked up the judgement and then pointed out the flaw in their reasoning.

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Originally Posted by t2k4 View Post
4. We are unelected public servants, not answerable to anyone, can strike down the NJAC or resurrect the NEET on-demand.
This is the very definition of judiciary. I do not see any problem with this. It is not unique to India.

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Originally Posted by t2k4 View Post
5. We will find a way to be in limelight one way or the other.
Limelight does not serve them, by the way, precisely because they are unelected. They don't even get a raise because of the limelight. So, I don't believe they do anything for limelight.
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Originally Posted by t2k4 View Post
Now that the basics are out of the way, I think we can all agree that our country will continue to function the way it always does, in an ad-hoc fashion. The courts will continue to run a parallel government, and the love-hate relationship between our government and foreign corporations will continue to ride the sine wave.
I think the basics, in this case, are flawed and hence they cannot be out of the way.
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Old 17th May 2016, 14:38   #36
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Default Re: Toyota says diesel car crackdown is a blow to 'confidence' in India

It's because Toyota doesn't rush with their research that they are able to produce reliable vehicles which in turn lower the TCO.

About the ban on high end diesel cars, there is no rational reason behind it and just goes to show the Site Court too can tow the populist measures of a media hungry spotlight grabbing politician.
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Old 17th May 2016, 14:51   #37
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Meanwhile the dieselgate VW engined vehicles continue to sell.

There's no actual efficiency test for engines in India, old ways to determining engines by displacement rather than how the engine runs.

Toyota can complain, but nothing will change about such rulings which pop out of nowhere. Apparently emission standards set in place are OK for rest of the country but not Delhi exclusively.

Last edited by GTO : 18th May 2016 at 11:11. Reason: Typo
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Old 17th May 2016, 14:56   #38
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Default Re: Toyota says diesel car crackdown is a blow to 'confidence' in India

London will follow Paris and ban diesel cars, campaigners warn
Pollution is so high in the capital, and diesel fumes so damaging, experts believe Boris Johnson will follow Paris' lead and ban the cars from London's roads within the decade.

Source : The Telegraph

If certain Dutch politicians have their way, cars in the Netherlands could go 100% electric within the decade. Green-minded politicians in the country's labor party recently proposed legislation that would ban all cars powered by gas or diesel fuel by 2025 — an effort to combat the heavy emissions produced by combustion engines.

Cars are already being phased out of the Netherlands, as the country's largest cities have come to rely predominantly on bicycles to get around.

Source : TechInsider


Dutch politicians have voted through a motion calling on the country to ban sales of new petrol and diesel cars starting in 2025.

The motion has only passed through the lower house of the Netherlands’ parliament, and would need to pass through the Dutch senate to become legally binding. But its success in a majority vote puts the earliest date yet on just when a major country might begin phasing out polluting transportation.

Source : The Guardian


Petrol and diesel cars should be BANNED within 25 years, says Nick Clegg in push to get drivers to go green.
#Lib Dems want only ultra low emission vehicles and electric cars from 2040
#Clegg says he wanted to tackle 'dangerous levels of air pollution' in cities
#Launches £100million 'prize' for firms who build first ultra low emission car

Source : The Daily Mail



List of Diesel cars banned in Delhi
Chevrolet Tavera
Chevrolet Trailblazer

Ford Endeavour

Mitsubishi Pajero Sport

Hyundai Santa Fe

Mahindra Bolero
Mahindra SsangYong Rexton
Mahindra Scorpio
Mahindra XUV500
Mahindra Xylo

Tata Aria
Tata Safari
Tata Safari Storme
Tata Sumo

Toyota Fortuner
Toyota Innova
Toyota Land Cruiser
Toyota Land Cruiser Prado

Audi Q5 3.0L TDI
Audi Q7
Audi A8L

BMW 5 Series 3.0L 530d
BMW X3 xDrive 30d M Sport 3.0L
BMW X5
BMW X6
BMW 6 Series
BMW 7 Series

Jaguar XF
Jaguar XJ L

Land Rover Freelander 2
Land Rover Discovery Sport
Land Rover Range Rover Evoque
Land Rover Discovery
Land Rover Range Rover Sport
Land Rover Range Rover LWB

Maserati Ghibli
Maserati Quattroporte

Mercedes Benz A Class
Mercedes Benz B Class
Mercedes Benz CLA Class
Mercedes Benz GLA Class
Mercedes Benz C Class
Mercedes Benz E Class
Mercedes Benz GLE Class
Mercedes Benz CLS Class
Mercedes Benz GL Class
Mercedes Benz S Class

Porsche Macan
Porsche Cayenne
Porsche Panamera

Last edited by Sommos : 17th May 2016 at 15:04.
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Old 17th May 2016, 15:02   #39
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Default Re: Toyota says diesel car crackdown is a blow to 'confidence' in India

Well said.

Let is define the norms and get on with it.

In the US where the norms are the same for Diesel and Petrol, Diesels still sell. Also, do away with the artificial advantage of Diesel with differential taxation. Remember in the UK where Diesel costs more than Petrol, D engines still sell.
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Old 17th May 2016, 15:17   #40
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Default Re: Toyota says diesel car crackdown is a blow to 'confidence' in India

I mean they aren't being singled out are they? I say deal with it. India in that manner is far more flexible without any serious crash testing norms which allows manufacturers to get away with skimping safety features in vehicles. I mean the country as a whole has to think about environment and the apex court has taken a view that serious steps have to be taken. The Indian manufacturers like Mahindra have been hit hard by this rule yet they are going about it in a professional way. These are nothing but empty threats from Toyota. If you cannot play by the rules then nobody can help you. No aspect of life is without challenges. You just have to get on with it
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Old 17th May 2016, 15:47   #41
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Default Re: Toyota says diesel car crackdown is a blow to 'confidence' in India

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I spend crores to develop a 1.9 litre engine specifically for India. A year later they change the rule from banning 2.0L and above to 1.6L engines and above being banned. What happens?
In other words, our Government goes out and says, we want smaller cars. It provides incentives for <4m, <1.5L cars, and adds additional duty to others. If you want to build an SUV - build it <4m, <1.5L.
It is not only Toyota which suffered due to this temporary ban in NCR region - Even Mahindra suffered due to the 2L ban - their several SUVs are 2.2L/2.5L - they would sell them in other cities till stock lasts and then probably phase them out to give way to 1.99L engines.
This sends our clear signals that, India is not a market if you are not ready to build India-specific products in time.

The statements made by Toyota are quite amusing to me - because such statements are not coming from the manufacturer who takes active part in the Indian market, such as Hyundai or Honda, but Toyota which has not built one single successful India-specific product.
Even manufacturers such as Renault (with its Kwid), Ford (with new Figo/Aspire/Ecosport), VW(Ameo) are trying their best in releasing India / Emerging Markets specific products. But Toyota just has the Corolla / Camry / Innova / Fortuner in India, all of them are the exact same copies of what they sell elsewhere in the world - May be with a little less safety features taking advantage of our local regulations.
This is not the first time Toyota has expressed its displeasure on Indian market and its failure to decode Indian Auto-mobile scene. (See: Toyota Admits defeat in Small Car Segment (Shocking! Toyota India admits defeat in the small car segment). Toyota admitted this after the Etios twins didn't create any impact in Indian market)
Toyota seems to rather build one solid product for the whole world, and sit on its laurels for years together - which is not working well here. If you need to be assured by the Government that the product that you will develop and build 5 years later will be accepted here and elsewhere in the world, then you can never get that assurance from developing countries such as India.
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Old 17th May 2016, 16:20   #42
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Default Re: Toyota says diesel car crackdown is a blow to 'confidence' in India

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Yep. That's why the less than stellar show in India.
Possibly. However, that's for Toyota to decide how they price their vehicles. If they want to price themselves out of the market, that's for them to decide.

Quote:
Arguable. In some cases, apparently, you need to crash "properly" for their airbags to deploy.
Please name the said vehicle that is sold in India.

Quote:
Sure. So do Maruti, Hyundai, Tata ... so on and so forth. So, what's new?
The fact that it's not a blind transaction.

Quote:
Precisely. That's why their word is not God's word and their motives will always be suspect.
Suspect of what? Any for-profit corporation's motive is profit.


Quote:
Yep. You do have to do what they tell you. That's how it has been defined in the constitution.
Nope. Constitution is the framework of rights and liberties. IPC is what they have to follow, and if a law violates the constitution, then they can strike it down. They cannot make law, but that's precisely what they do.

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If they can decide sitting in their AC cabins surrounded by SPG, who is the murderer and who too the bribe, why cannot they decide what does and does not pollute?
Because a murder trial is based on facts and evidence - where's the evidence in their randomly banning 2L and over engines. Where's the proof that 1.5L engine does not pollute? A typical diesel auto rickshaw pollutes far more than a diesel car - where's the ban there?


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This is just your imagination. It would be great if you picked up the judgement and then pointed out the flaw in their reasoning.
Please provide evidence to the contrary. How do only 2L and over diesel engines pollute?


Quote:
This is the very definition of judiciary. I do not see any problem with this. It is not unique to India.
If executed in spirit, then, yes. They cannot frame laws. Their only job is to interpret the law constituted by the "elected" representatives in a matter of civil or criminal proceeding. Judicial and Legislative columns of a democracy are each other's check and balance. Our constitution does not place judiciary over the legislature, or the other way around. However, judiciary is running a proxy government in India, and that is what's different from the rest of the world.


Quote:
Limelight does not serve them, by the way, precisely because they are unelected. They don't even get a raise because of the limelight. So, I don't believe they do anything for limelight.
It may not serve them, but they do find a way to be in it nonetheless. There are hundreds of public-interest items that they can work - why not take Suo moto cognizance of those? Why strike down NJAC?


Quote:
I think the basics, in this case, are flawed and hence they cannot be out of the way.
It's a matter of perception.
Corporations are for-profit. Indian judiciary is out of line quite often. The inability of successive governments to frame policies that protect the consumer give the courts even more power to frame arbitrary law of the land.

Last edited by t2k4 : 17th May 2016 at 16:24.
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Old 17th May 2016, 16:31   #43
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Default Re: Toyota says diesel car crackdown is a blow to 'confidence' in India

Now take a look at the cars owned by the SC judges (includes vehicles owned in spouse / children's name) :

Name:  SC judges car.gif
Views: 824
Size:  9.5 KB

Source : Supreme Court of India

The above details is based on the Voluntary Disclosure of Assets by the Judges and is available in the Supreme Court of India website.

It is true that all these judges are provided government vehicles and seldom do they need to use their personal vehicles on the road. But from the details of the vehicles you can see that many of them are more than 15 years old and are fit to be scrapped as per the judgement of the Apex Court.

Last edited by Sommos : 17th May 2016 at 16:33.
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Old 17th May 2016, 16:53   #44
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Default Re: Toyota says diesel car crackdown is a blow to 'confidence' in India

I believe the court should set up an independent panel of experts who can overhaul the PUC system in India.
The cars which can clear the new PUC system should continue to be sold. Others pulled out.
No justification whatsoever by setting a standard of 2000 cc engines.
An auto rickshaw engine of 20cc cc can cause more pollution if run on spurious fuel than a car of 2000 cc which is maintained correctly.
Courts should be concerned with enforcement of the current law properly - not make laws.
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Old 17th May 2016, 17:11   #45
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Originally Posted by hybridpetrol View Post
In other words, our Government goes out and says, we want smaller cars. It provides incentives for <4m, <1.5L cars, and adds additional duty to others. If you want to build an SUV - build it <4m, <1.5L.
This less than 4 metres should also figure in the brands vision. Can you imagine how pointless a sub 4m Innova with 1.5L engine will be?

The Innova by definition is a people mover a MPV. Does that mean that India doesn't allow people movers to be on sale? Because currently except for the Scorpio and XUV 1.99L models no SUV/MPV can be sold in India.


Quote:
It is not only Toyota which suffered due to this temporary ban in NCR region - Even Mahindra suffered due to the 2L ban - their several SUVs are 2.2L/2.5L - they would sell them in other cities till stock lasts and then probably phase them out to give way to 1.99L engines.
This sends our clear signals that, India is not a market if you are not ready to build India-specific products in time.
This is amusing. On the one hand we crib when we get sub standard products especially for Indian markets like Honda, Toyota, Maruti and Hyundai are giving us. Where as on the other we are criticizing Toyota for not coming out with India specific cars.

Toyota with the Corolla, Camry, Innova and Fortuner is basically giving us the same product that they sell internationally and here we are asking them to cut it down to suit our developing country status.

Shouldn't we be asking Toyota to give us the same world class products as other countries?

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Originally Posted by hybridpetrol View Post
Even manufacturers such as Renault (with its Kwid), Ford (with new Figo/Aspire/Ecosport), VW(Ameo) are trying their best in releasing India / Emerging Markets specific products. But Toyota just has the Corolla / Camry / Innova / Fortuner in India, all of them are the exact same copies of what they sell elsewhere in the world - May be with a little less safety features taking advantage of our local regulations.
Just to add to my earlier post. This is what happens when manufacturers decide to give us India specific models made for emerging or "developing" markets like ours:

https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/india...-zero-all.html

While these cars fit into the regulations beautifully, they also take maximum benefit of our lack of safety regulations.

Last edited by Vid6639 : 17th May 2016 at 17:32.
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