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Old 17th May 2016, 17:35   #46
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Default Re: Toyota says diesel car crackdown is a blow to 'confidence' in India

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Originally Posted by t2k4 View Post


Please name the said vehicle that is sold in India.

The Innova for sure. 5 years back, my driver dashed on a qualis in front of us, after falling asleep on the wheel. We were doing 80 kmph and the front smashed enough to destroy the radiator. Yet no airbags were deployed. The service centre did tell me that the 'soft spot for airbag deployment' wasn't hit.
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Old 17th May 2016, 17:38   #47
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Default Re: Toyota says diesel car crackdown is a blow to 'confidence' in India

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Originally Posted by Vid6639 View Post
This is amusing. On the one hand we crib when we get sub standard products especially for Indian markets like Honda, Toyota, Maruti and Hyundai are giving us. Where as on the other we are criticizing Toyota for not coming out with India specific cars.

Toyota with the Corolla, Camry, Innova and Fortuner is basically giving us the same product that they sell internationally and here we are asking them to cut it down to suit our developing country status.

Shouldn't we be asking Toyota to give us the same world class products as other countries?
Yes, on one hand, we, as those who love driving, crib on why manufacturers provide sub-standard products for India.
But our Government has other concerns. We have a population as big as China's, but with 1/3rd of space. We have our share of problems related to traffic and resulting pollution. Government's priorities are elsewhere - such as keeping the 1.25 billion properly fed, clothed, covered under a roof, provided education and health care, etc. Those who own a car is roughly 5% of the population, (18 cars per 1000 members as per 2011 statistics) out of that A and B1 segment cars (< 5L on road) constitutes a major chunk.
Government would be least bothered if Toyota cannot make small cars or if they cannot adapt to changing rules. Loss would be Toyota's, if they cannot adjust to the environment and take part in the growth story of India when the auto-mobile market here is exploding.
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Old 17th May 2016, 21:45   #48
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Default Re: Toyota says diesel car crackdown is a blow to 'confidence' in India

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Originally Posted by riteshritesh View Post
The Innova for sure. 5 years back, my driver dashed on a qualis in front of us, after falling asleep on the wheel. We were doing 80 kmph and the front smashed enough to destroy the radiator. Yet no airbags were deployed. The service centre did tell me that the 'soft spot for airbag deployment' wasn't hit.
OT: That accident does not look severe enough for airbags to deploy. I've said this before. The airbags are the last resort. If all occupants walked out without any major injuries the job is done. The airbag is an explosive charge and also causes some injury due to the violent explosion. The airbag is designed to deploy only as an absolute last resort.

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Originally Posted by hybridpetrol View Post
Yes, on one hand, we, as those who love driving, crib on why manufacturers provide sub-standard products for India.
But our Government has other concerns. We have a population as big as China's, but with 1/3rd of space. We have our share of problems related to traffic and resulting pollution. Government's priorities are elsewhere - such as keeping the 1.25 billion properly fed, clothed, covered under a roof, provided education and health care, etc. Those who own a car is roughly 5% of the population, (18 cars per 1000 members as per 2011 statistics) out of that A and B1 segment cars (< 5L on road) constitutes a major chunk.
Government would be least bothered if Toyota cannot make small cars or if they cannot adapt to changing rules. Loss would be Toyota's, if they cannot adjust to the environment and take part in the growth story of India when the auto-mobile market here is exploding.
I agree with your point but is that sub 4m rule and silly ground clearance rule and that 2000cc ban really thought out to actually reduce emissions?

If they wanted to actually tackle the emission problem they would levy road tax based on emissions and not on the price of the car.

Cars should be re-certified every 2 years or 3 years and then only allowed to ply.

The current regulations are just to deter manufacturers altogether.
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Old 18th May 2016, 09:22   #49
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Default Re: Toyota says diesel car crackdown is a blow to 'confidence' in India

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Originally Posted by Vid6639 View Post
I agree with your point but is that sub 4m rule and silly ground clearance rule and that 2000cc ban really thought out to actually reduce emissions?

If they wanted to actually tackle the emission problem they would levy road tax based on emissions and not on the price of the car.

Cars should be re-certified every 2 years or 3 years and then only allowed to ply.

The current regulations are just to deter manufacturers altogether.
I agree. Point in example: Last month I renewed the PUC of my Storme. It was a full PUC, with engine running at various rpm and not the eyewash idle rpm test conducted by some centers. Required smoke units for a pass = 65 hpa. Units coming out of the tail pipe of my 2014 Storme? exactly 1 hpa, beat that honorable court, now I want to see what daises are spewing out of <2000cc diesel cabs and the honorable judge's car in Delhi.

Last edited by Vid6639 : 18th May 2016 at 09:26. Reason: Please avoid typing with excessive dots.........like................this.
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Old 18th May 2016, 10:29   #50
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Default Re: Toyota says diesel car crackdown is a blow to 'confidence' in India

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Possibly. However, that's for Toyota to decide how they price their vehicles. If they want to price themselves out of the market, that's for them to decide.
Sure.

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Originally Posted by t2k4 View Post
Please name the said vehicle that is sold in India.
Toyota Etios. Search in team-bhp for the thread and you will find it.

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Originally Posted by t2k4 View Post
The fact that it's not a blind transaction.
It is not blind transaction for every car you buy. Nothing great about Toyota.

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Originally Posted by t2k4 View Post

Suspect of what? Any for-profit corporation's motive is profit.
Suspect that they might do anything for profit.

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Originally Posted by t2k4 View Post
Nope. Constitution is the framework of rights and liberties. IPC is what they have to follow, and if a law violates the constitution, then they can strike it down. They cannot make law, but that's precisely what they do.
Implementing IPC is only one (and often the most mundane) aspect of the judiciary. There are other constitutional duties, such as interpretation of constitution and advisory duties. They are not making law. Only interpreting.

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Because a murder trial is based on facts and evidence - where's the evidence in their randomly banning 2L and over engines. Where's the proof that 1.5L engine does not pollute? A typical diesel auto rickshaw pollutes far more than a diesel car - where's the ban there?
This trial was also based on facts and evidence. Read the judgement, especially the deposition by CSE. You may disagree with the flow of logic, but you cannot claim absence of it.

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Originally Posted by t2k4 View Post
Please provide evidence to the contrary. How do only 2L and over diesel engines pollute?
Strange logic! I will use old Bertrand Russel argument. Can you provide evidence to the contrary to the claim that a tea cup orbits around Jupiter? Would you therefore accept that a tea cup orbits around Jupiter?


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Originally Posted by t2k4 View Post
If executed in spirit, then, yes. They cannot frame laws. Their only job is to interpret the law constituted by the "elected" representatives in a matter of civil or criminal proceeding. Judicial and Legislative columns of a democracy are each other's check and balance. Our constitution does not place judiciary over the legislature, or the other way around. However, judiciary is running a proxy government in India, and that is what's different from the rest of the world.
Again, they are not framing laws. They are interpreting as is their duty. I am ignoring rest of your claims as they are unsubstantiated.

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Originally Posted by t2k4 View Post

It may not serve them, but they do find a way to be in it nonetheless. There are hundreds of public-interest items that they can work - why not take Suo moto cognizance of those? Why strike down NJAC?
Again strange logic. By this logic, you can accuse anybody of seeking limelight. Well they are the top court in the country. Their decisions are bound to be in the limelight. As per PIL, they are working on it - by the hundreds. And why not strike down NJAC ? (But, NJAC may not be the right thing for this thread.

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Originally Posted by t2k4 View Post
It's a matter of perception.
Corporations are for-profit. Indian judiciary is out of line quite often. The inability of successive governments to frame policies that protect the consumer give the courts even more power to frame arbitrary law of the land.
Perception could be this too: Corporation are for profit and and are often out of line. Judiciary is doing their best in the absence of any broad legal framework . The inability of the successive governments to frame policies that protect the citizens have forced the courts to look into matters that would have been best handled by the executive and legislature.
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Old 18th May 2016, 17:59   #51
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Default Re: Toyota says diesel car crackdown is a blow to 'confidence' in India

Now Mercedes also says India investments on hold

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/...w/52326548.cms
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Old 19th May 2016, 07:25   #52
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Default Re: Toyota says diesel car crackdown is a blow to 'confidence' in India

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Now Mercedes also says India investments on hold

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/...w/52326548.cms
What MD of Mercedes Benz said is so true:

".... By targeting only big vehicles and leaving out mass segment diesel cars is a punishment to perceived 'rich' owners of big diesels and SUVs."

..." If you want to clear the air then you have to address many things besides automobiles"


Who cares about jobs, investments or even pollution. Politicians' sole focus is to retain power and winning next elections.

Judiciary want to be seen on the right side of the masses. Damn to justice and fair-play.

I wonder if so called pollution watchdog NGOs/amicus curiae are competent and have any peer certified credentials. After all - 'justice' is being dispensed solely on their recommendations!
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Old 19th May 2016, 16:31   #53
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Default Re: Toyota says diesel car crackdown is a blow to 'confidence' in India

I by no means a Diesel lover, still feel our courts are going crazy. Define the standards, and then let the makers get on with it. I cam ask one question - why is a turbocharged engine treated the same as an NA engine. Way back in the 1970's racing had put a 1.5 2x multiplier for blown cars.
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Old 23rd May 2016, 13:40   #54
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Default Re: Toyota says diesel car crackdown is a blow to 'confidence' in India

Here's a development that gives credence to Toyota's thinking:

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...ml#post3980245

While I understand drastic measures need to be taken in the metros to tackle alarming levels of pollution, decisions such as these (banning vehicles by size/engine size/age) need to be taken on the basis of scientific reasoning.

I tend to agree with Toyota on why they might not be feeling "confident" about the market.

What studies did the SC do when they came up with the decision to ban registrations of new diesel vehicles with engines over 2l? Did they compare scientific data on the emissions and their impact? Why only diesel and not petrol?

What's so special about 10 years that vehicles older than that are banned? Does the engine deteriorate at the time such that emissions increase drastically?

Until the SC and the NGT and every other organization that has the power to enforce such "bans" lay out a scientific rationale for their decision, it will only lead to more under-confidence.
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Old 23rd May 2016, 14:32   #55
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Default Re: Toyota says diesel car crackdown is a blow to 'confidence' in India

Well, today it's Mercedes Benz and Toyota next it's going to be rest of the manufacturers including Mahindra and Tata. Except Maruti Suzuki India, all the manufacturers are at a loss here. Every manufacturer will think twice before introducing a new product in the country, instead of implementing such weird rules they should actually start acting up a little maturely and properly implement some rules and regulations instead of hampering the lives of both the consumers and manufacturers.
First of all, if they want to implement such rules, the commercial transport needs drastic improvement in most of the cities. They are simply not good enough or cheap enough that a consumer will give up his car and travel in them.
As Vid6639 pointed out, every car should be re-certified every 3 years. I have seen Indica Vistas, Dzires, Fabias emitting a lot of smoke and engine noise but are running freely because of valid PUC certificate.
The technology have advanced quite a bit, no manufacturers use age old tech on their newer products. So, cars above 2000cc are polluting more like seriously? Most of the vehicles above 2000cc are way advanced technologically in the Indian auto industry and offered by luxury car makers. If they would actually affect the environment, no foreign market would have allowed those vehicles to run (All the above 2000cc products available in India are mostly global products).
If you want consumers to shift to cleaner fuel alternatives like CNG and LPG, introduce more pumps for the same. Even after so many years from the introduction of it a lot of fuel pumps in many cities still doesn't sell it. Infact, I have hardly spotted any pumps on the Indian National Highway selling so how can you expect people to switch to alternative options when we don't have the infrastructure?
An Auto rickshaw pollutes way more than say an Innova, Pajero and Endeavour but it's allowed! What about people who has a bigger family? We don't have rights to travel together? What about your smoke emitting buses, they are allowed because it's carry so many passengers! Government also needs to make the necessary changes, set an example and then ask the mango people to follow. Set a limit to the entry of commercial vehicles each day if you want to keep a control on the environment!

Now, a lot of folks are saying Toyota doesn't have a proper line up in India and doesn't treats the Indian market fairly. Well, if this would have been the case, they wouldn't have objected. Every manufacturer is here to do business, Toyota is doing the same. The manufacturer indeed has a great line up in the foreign market but if they aren't confident enough how do you expect them to introduce those products?
The Etios twins needs replacement, the company is already working on that. Till then we will again receive a facelift. The manufacturer even agreed defeat in terms of sales because they failed to understand the needs of Indian consumers hence I appreciate Toyota for accepting their mistake. If the manufacturer had given up regarding this, they wouldn't have started working on the next generation of the vehicles. We got the Innova, Corolla Altis and Camry. The Fortuner will be here in the next quarter. The company has decided to enter the C Segment in 2018 along with the next generation Etios twins. Now, you cannot force a manufacturer to enter the sub 4M mark or ask them to design a Compact SUV specific for the Indian market. It's their choice what they want to sell! A lot of consumers said Toyota should launch the Rush in the Indian market but then ask yourself will you buy it if you get a much better looking car and package in Ford Ecosport. They have understood it's not meant for India and hence aren't launching it! The company is not run by a bunch of fools, we all know how much efforts does it take to establish a new car in the market. Even after having amazing products like Tata Zest, Ford Figo Aspire people still go in for the Swift Dzire and Honda Amaze!
No manufacturer is declining to impose a ban but atleast prove it to them that Yes! There products are polluting the environment. Without a valid reason just because of the engine capacity you cannot ban a product.
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Old 28th July 2016, 18:41   #56
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Default Re: Toyota says diesel car crackdown is a blow to 'confidence' in India

Toyota has filed a plea petition which will come up for hearing before the NGT on August 2.

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In its plea, the automobile company said ban on the registration of diesel vehicles manufactured by the applicant company is "unfair and unjust" as it was complying with all the laws and any restriction would severely impact its sales and the livelihood of thousands of people engaged in the automobile sector.

"The applicant company is being penalised for no fault or violation on its part thereby making the order banning registration of diesel cars as unjust and unfair on the company. The imposition of ban on registration of diesel vehicles is in the nature of a corporate death penalty as it impacts the very existence of the company. A ban order is an extremely harsh/excessive punishment and ought to be imposed in circumstances where a party commits a serious violation and not when there is no violation," Toyota said.

The petition, which is likely to come up for hearing before a bench headed by NGT Chairperson Justice Swatanter Kumar on August 2, has sought impleadment in a case filed by lawyer Vardhaman Kaushik on air pollution in Delhi.

The plea, filed through advocates Vijay Sondhi and Cauveri Birbal, said there is no link between engine capacity and emission levels and as per Motor Vehicles Act "the engine capacity of a motor vehicle is not even a factor that is taken into consideration by the government for prescribing the applicable mass emission standards".
ET
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Old 28th July 2016, 20:16   #57
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Default Re: Toyota says diesel car crackdown is a blow to 'confidence' in India

The problem is even with removal of this ban, people still might not be as comfortable as they were previously in putting lakhs of rupees into something that has no guaranteed future. This and the odd-even scheme has really shaken up people's confidence in buying SUV/MUV and all diesel cars in particular. And in such an event, to put so much money into these cars might not be everyone's cup of tea. Who knows tomorrow they will come back with some new rule banning these cars. And anyways the 10 year rule for diesel cars stays in Delhi for now which again makes it less lucrative to spend so much money on a new car.
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Old 29th July 2016, 09:25   #58
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For all these years Toyota has been selling cars with inefficient engines without a second thought. They sold cars with a USP reliable. But this reliability of engines can be due to their large cylinders with low power (bhp per cc ) and comparatively low rpm. For example the new innova crysta engine with 2400cc produces <150 bhp whereas 1600cc Fiat mjd produces ~140 bhp with nearly same torque. The mjd has been in market for more than a decade. Same with VW's 1900 cc TDi engines which produces upto 184 bhp in different tunings. So it's time for Toyota to invest and invent new IC engines with higher efficiency.
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Old 2nd August 2016, 21:31   #59
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Default Re: Toyota says diesel car crackdown is a blow to 'confidence' in India

Vikram Kirloskar, vice chairman, Toyota Kirloskar Motors, speaking on the sidelines of a CII organised event on manufacturing in Mumbai:

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In Delhi, I am being punished for following the law. We are following Euro 4. So in spite of following the law we are being punished, for which no one has an answer. And it is absolutely impeaching on my rights. Until that issue is sorted out no (further) investment.

Right now we do not know who is making the decisions, is it the court or is it the government? Once you are in a situation like this everyone will say ‘stop’."
Business Standard
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Old 2nd August 2016, 22:53   #60
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Default Re: Toyota says diesel car crackdown is a blow to 'confidence' in India

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For all these years Toyota has been selling cars with inefficient engines without a second thought. They sold cars with a USP reliable. But this reliability of engines can be due to their large cylinders with low power (bhp per cc ) and comparatively low rpm. For example the new innova crysta engine with 2400cc produces <150 bhp whereas 1600cc Fiat mjd produces ~140 bhp with nearly same torque. The mjd has been in market for more than a decade. Same with VW's 1900 cc TDi engines which produces upto 184 bhp in different tunings. So it's time for Toyota to invest and invent new IC engines with higher efficiency.
I'm not sure anybody understands your definition of inefficient here, larger engines with lower power ratings last longer and are reliable, reliability is a big consideration for vehicle purchases. Maintenance costs on the large Toyota products are less than what is would spend on a hatch, that's no mean feat. Fiat hasn't managed to make a car to put that awesome engine into, even maruti couldn't do the numbers to turn a profit.
VW should have spent billions more and figured a way to improve that diesel engine instead of writing software code to commit fraud. That engine is going to cost them upwards to the tune of 20 billion usd in damages. Toyota is the absolute leader in hybrid, so they have invented newer technology, that such we can't have because of our messed up policies and focus on harassing the "evil rich".
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