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Old 26th May 2016, 12:32   #136
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Default re: NGT bans 10+ year old diesel vehicles in Kerala. EDIT: High Court stays ban

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/...w/52441061.cms

So even the government believes that such bans will solve nothing when it comes to pollution.
Good to know that at least our central government is willing to take a holistic approach and perform some study/research on this topic rather than just issue abrupt orders (in hindi, people would be familiar with the term Tughlaqi Farman)

See, what Mr. Gadakari has mentioned, is exactly how you need to deal with pollution. Ramp up your infrastructure, issue stricter emission norms, take the auto companies and manufacturers along with you. This is how its supposed to be tackled.
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Old 26th May 2016, 13:35   #137
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Default re: NGT bans 10+ year old diesel vehicles in Kerala. EDIT: High Court stays ban

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rahul Rao View Post
What skewed pricing. A SUV attracts 30% exise duty during manufacture, against 12% for sub 4 M cars. one time Tax while registeration is 14% to 20% where it is 9% for sub 4 M Petrol and 11 % for sub 4 M diesel. Even Municipal LBT (where ever applicable) is 5% of ex showroom price rather than 3%.
SUV buyers have already payed a few lakh rupees more at source, even interest from this will not be recovered from the Rs 9.00 or so difference in price of petrol and Diesel. Only reason to prefer diesel is the fuel effeciency which remains 40% higher than petrol in smaller engines and nearly twice as high in bigger ones.
By skewed pricing, I meant disparity between petrol and diesel prices, in spite of same refining costs.

Traditional SUVs are cheap to manufacture and are the cash cows of auto giants. The body on frame models require very little R&D, and are glorified pick ups, hence despite some heavier taxation they can sell it at decent prices. The only way for SUVs to survive in a rapidly urbanising India is to become smaller in dimension and thus be powered by smaller engines.

In kerala the road density is almost twice the national average but in this densely populated state even highways are two lane roads so SUVs are a very relevant topic for the NGT to consider.

Cross overs and monocoque are steps in the right direction. Almost all manufacturers are switching to such models. They are lighter, smaller and can be powered by smaller engines.

Diesel BS 6,5 engines can be easily introduced by manufacturers but what about fuel ? Overhauling refineries will take time. Having said that, such improvisations will also go a long way in curbing pollution.
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Old 26th May 2016, 13:47   #138
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Unhappy re: NGT bans 10+ year old diesel vehicles in Kerala. EDIT: High Court stays ban

NGT was set up by the Central government on specific instructions from the Supreme court because the Court felt that the Government was not doing enough to protect the environment.

The different benches of the NGT are manned by retired senior Judges of the Supreme Court. As seen in the case of Delhi, Courts may not interfere in the decisions regarding the environment. It is therefore highly unlikely that this decision will be overturned. At best we can expect only a small breather period of 2 to 3 months for the decision to come to force, but IMO that too is improbable.

I'm afraid that this ban on diesel vehicle new registrations and 10yr ban on all diesel vehicles are here to stay.
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Old 26th May 2016, 16:40   #139
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Default re: NGT bans 10+ year old diesel vehicles in Kerala. EDIT: High Court stays ban

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Haddock View Post
By skewed pricing, I meant disparity between petrol and diesel prices, in spite of same refining costs.

Traditional SUVs are cheap to manufacture and are the cash cows of auto giants. The body on frame models require very little R&D, and are glorified pick ups, hence despite some heavier taxation they can sell it at decent prices. The only way for SUVs to survive in a rapidly urbanising India is to become smaller in dimension and thus be powered by smaller engines.
I see from your repeated posts that you have something against large SUV. You seem to keep on harping on the point that somehow a large SUV causes more pollution than everything else on the road. Who is the NGT or for that matter anyone else to decide what sized car should I drive? As long as they can prove that a 2+ liter diesel engine is substantially more polluting than an under powered 800 cc engine pulling a tin cart car, I have no issues. Since the only job of this retired judge club seems ban this and ban that, I have a serious problem with them, and I openly doubt their intentions and allegiances to particular political parties and business groups.
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Old 26th May 2016, 18:11   #140
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Default re: NGT bans 10+ year old diesel vehicles in Kerala. EDIT: High Court stays ban

Toyota also responding unfavourably about the new ruling.

http://www.manoramaonline.com/fasttrack/auto-news/diesel-ban-toyota-may-not-launch-new-models-in-india.html
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Old 26th May 2016, 18:18   #141
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Default re: NGT bans 10+ year old diesel vehicles in Kerala. EDIT: High Court stays ban

Quote:
Originally Posted by shobhitk View Post
Montesquieu, propounded the theory of 'Separation of Power', which requires that the Executive ,Legislature and Judiciary should work independently and should not encroach upon each others jurisdiction.

As it happened, the Executive failed to take the lead and now the Judiciary is firmly in the business of lying down rules, which hitherto was the job of the Executive.
As the legislatures come from the public, they normally frame laws that do not hurt the public sentiments. The Courts have for most of the time, created Laws, which benefit public at large but sometimes, due to lack of sufficient material before them, they pass orders which adversely affect the people at large and become subject matter of debate.

in present situation only 3 remedies are possible :-

(A) NGT on additional material before them, revises their previous orders. ( Chances very dim)
(B) Supreme Court reverses/modifies the NGT orders.
(C) The Parliament by 2/3 majority, amends the NGT order, but it will require the Government and the opposition to vote in favour of the new Law.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gopzdoc View Post
NGT was set up by the Central government on specific instructions from the Supreme court because the Court felt that the Government was not doing enough to protect the environment.

The different benches of the NGT are manned by retired senior Judges of the Supreme Court. As seen in the case of Delhi, Courts may not interfere in the decisions regarding the environment. It is therefore highly unlikely that this decision will be overturned. At best we can expect only a small breather period of 2 to 3 months for the decision to come to force, but IMO that too is improbable.

I'm afraid that this ban on diesel vehicle new registrations and 10yr ban on all diesel vehicles are here to stay.
now the bigger concerns are as under:-

a- Any new state or city can be added by NGT for restricting the use/sale of diesel cars.
b- size of engine may be reduced for enforcing the ban. Who knows that 1.6 liter engines may be picked up for ban, if the quality of air is further considered to be unsatisfactory.
c- Who knows that some day only CNG or some new type of fuel is allowed to be used for the vehicle.

In such a scenario the Government should take up the issue with the NGT, and lay down a firm policy, so that the customers can buy, and the manufactures can build cars without any fear for next 15-20 years.
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Old 26th May 2016, 19:24   #142
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Default re: NGT bans 10+ year old diesel vehicles in Kerala. EDIT: High Court stays ban

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Haddock View Post
The only way for SUVs to survive in a rapidly urbanising India is to become smaller in dimension and thus be powered by smaller engines.
Even diesel engines in India are just large enough, they are not 'american large' if you know what I mean. Ford Explorer and one higher models ahve 6.5 ltr engines in USA. We have just 2.5 ltr engines on innova, Pajero etc. Now having a 2.5 ltr engine means lesser stress on engine when you a load esp going on inclines like hills or on long drives. A smaller engine will start wheezing on load and will have greater wear & tear and resultant shorter life. There is a reason why Qualis & Innova's last 500k kms easily. They are not small engines extracting unseemly power under high pressure. They are 'relatively large' engines extracting power in rather leisurely manner compared to peers and thus have lesser wear and tear. Same go for all 2.2 ltr dicor and mhawk types. These engines can last 500k kms or even above without overhaul or rebuild. Smaller MJD type engines have no way of doing that.
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Old 26th May 2016, 20:07   #143
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Default re: NGT bans 10+ year old diesel vehicles in Kerala. EDIT: High Court stays ban

If I was an auto mfr. CEO, I would start making 1999 cc engines with highest possible turbocharger, supercharger, nitrous, etc.

Then I'd get the cheapest possible ladder-frame chassis, maybe a 1950's pick up truck, maybe a Nissan Jonga(!), fix a paper mache body like the E. German Trabant's, put in chrome everywhere, even inside the dashboard and boot, woven cloth seat covers, bubblegum rubber skinny tires and sell it day and night.

That monster will have a top speed of 300+ kph. Some may call it a widow-maker. Knowledgeable ones like you will call it Batmobile.

Imagine the customization market for that vehicle! Million$.

So from a combined 23% market share of large engined vehicles, this one mfr. can capture 50% easily.

CEO gets a nice bonus, retires, and a grateful public has a 10,000 feet tall titanium statue of him mounted off the coast of Cochin. The Stat. of Lib. holds a torch. This one will hold a stack of Rs. 1000/- notes.

Last edited by hangover : 26th May 2016 at 20:19.
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Old 26th May 2016, 21:56   #144
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Not sure why some of the fellow members compare our MPVs with US SUVs. We have a typical Indian family with parents staying with us. And one of the safer and decent option is Innova. So bought it. I had considered ertiga, Renault and all but it was not comfortable at all...Now NGT wants me to use two swifts back to back ?

I cannot find any reasoning behind this decision ..
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Old 27th May 2016, 09:03   #145
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Default re: NGT bans 10+ year old diesel vehicles in Kerala. EDIT: High Court stays ban

Kerala to move SC against NGT ban on diesel vehicles
Quote:
The Kerala government is readying to move Supreme Court against the National Green Tribunal (NGT)’s order to impose ban on old diesel vehicles. The state fears the public transport and inter-state traffic of goods and people will be acutely disrupted by the move.

The circuit bench of NGT in Kochi had banned light and heavy diesel vehicles with engines above 2000cc and over 10 years old in Thiruvananthapuram, Kollam, Kochi, Thrissur, Kozhikode and Kannur.State transport commissioner, Tomin J Thachankary held discussion with chief minister Pinarayi Vijayan on Thursday. The Kerala High Court will hear a plea on this issue next week.
http://www.financialexpress.com/arti...-order/266916/

Manorama (Malayalam) report on the same from yesterday night, however, quotes the transport minister saying the government is not against the NGT order and has not made a final decision about challenging it:
http://www.manoramaonline.com/news/j...eme-court.html

Last edited by darklord : 27th May 2016 at 09:05.
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Old 27th May 2016, 09:58   #146
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Default re: NGT bans 10+ year old diesel vehicles in Kerala. EDIT: High Court stays ban

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Haddock View Post
By skewed pricing, I meant disparity between petrol and diesel prices, in spite of same refining costs.
I have explained in previous post how government recovers much more at source what it collects less in taxes on diesel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Haddock View Post
The only way for SUVs to survive in a rapidly urbanising India is to become smaller in dimension and thus be powered by smaller engines.
Smaller engines actually pollute more, not just by volume, but by pollutants in gms/km too. A 16 Ton bus powered by a 400 BHP 9 Lit Euro VI diesel in europe emits as less as 0.12 gm / km of NOx against a 2 Lit 150 BHP car that emits 0.35gm/ km. Cleaner burning lower speed bigger engines are actually needed. Read the Green car Congress reports. http://www.greencarcongress.com/2015...50929-toi.html just posting one link, but go through others too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Haddock View Post
In kerala the road density is almost twice the national average but in this densely populated state even highways are two lane roads so SUVs are a very relevant topic for the NGT to consider.
That is Kerala's own problem, all funds provided by 4 terms of central governments from 2000 till date are usually returned un utilized. Kerala shies away from land aquisition and road expansion even when funds are available. It is not limited few Kerala residents who should take the brunt of high handed NGT policies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Haddock View Post
Cross overs and monocoque are steps in the right direction. Almost all manufacturers are switching to such models. They are lighter, smaller and can be powered by smaller engines.
This is a different catagory of vehicles that sits between true SUV's and Sedans, and is the fastest growing one too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Haddock View Post
Diesel BS 6,5 engines can be easily introduced by manufacturers but what about fuel ? Overhauling refineries will take time. Having said that, such improvisations will also go a long way in curbing pollution.
If you know India Imports crude and exports refined fuel even back to some OPEC countries. Euro V norm countries like Singapore, Hongkong, and other still Euro IV but using Euro IV diesel in major cities like Thailand, and even Iran import re import it from India.
The Governments move to shift smaller cities to Euro IV by April 17, and directly to Euro VI in 2020 instead of Euro V in 2019 and Euro VI in 2023 is correct.

It is also a known fact that bigger the piston diameter more the thermal effeciency. The smallest cylinder to have decent thermal effeciency is a 540 cc one, in short stroke low torque engines it goes down to 400 cc, but these do not have usable power. The engine with minimum no of cylinders which is self balanced is 5 cylinders, though Inline 6 are even better.

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Old 27th May 2016, 13:02   #147
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Default re: NGT bans 10+ year old diesel vehicles in Kerala. EDIT: High Court stays ban

Ban on diesel vehicles: Govt to file appeal
Quote:
Thiruvananthapuram: The Kerala government has decided to move High Court against the National Green Tribunal order imposing restrictions on diesel vehicles.

The decision was taken after the discussion involving Chief Minister Pinarayi Vijayan and Transport Minister A K Saseendran on Friday morning.
Read more at: http://english.mathrubhumi.com/news/...news-1.1088930


Notably though:
Quote:
Meanwhile, Transport Minister A K Saseendran said the government is not opposing the tribunal order completely.

“Conservation of environment is our policy. Hence we will seek additional time,” he said.
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Old 27th May 2016, 13:26   #148
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Default re: NGT bans 10+ year old diesel vehicles in Kerala. EDIT: High Court stays ban

It was expected that some day or the other this would happen. Since the proceedings/next level of the ban or restriction cannot be calculated, i think this is going to be tough, as different people (both buyers and sellers) may have different way of looking at it.

1. Shouldn't the govt come up with a mechanism to take care of 10 year old cars.
2. Shouldn't it be the pollution level and not the engine size to decide what to run on the road and what not.

It looks to me that, banning 2.0 diesels would be the easiest thing in terms of execution and not with regard to reducing environmental damage.

> Govt, should ideally consider more comprehensive or stronger vehicle fitness policy in terms of the ones sold in the market. It should look at the NCAP rating to decide on the cars sold. Lower rating cars would actually reduce the sale of base variants of most of the cars.
Added to the same, vehicles without proper lighting, blinkers, break lights, ORVMs etc should also be restricted to be on the roads.

> Another alternative would be to improvise the license tests, to make it not so easy to get one and also to have 5year 10 year renewal programs for the same. This would increase the number of physically fit drivers on the road.

In my opinion, a better enforcement of the existing laws can save a lot interms of protecting the environment, than such flat bans !!
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Old 27th May 2016, 14:03   #149
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Default re: NGT bans 10+ year old diesel vehicles in Kerala. EDIT: High Court stays ban

More than compulshion the correct method to go about with a change of vehicles will be voluntary and incentive based http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/i...w/52453752.cms
The Supreme court even cleared the issuing of NOC for selling old cars originally registered in Delhi to places outside Delhi. The NGT had barred this wanting old cars in delhi to be scrapped.

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Old 27th May 2016, 16:37   #150
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Update: High Court of Kerala stayed the Ban by NGT
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