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Old 27th May 2016, 16:38   #151
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Default re: NGT bans 10+ year old diesel vehicles in Kerala. EDIT: High Court stays ban

Kerala High Court stays the National Green Tribunal's ban on registration of diesel cars above 2000cc for two months.

http://newsalerts.manoramaonline.com...lert-8488.html
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Old 27th May 2016, 17:54   #152
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Default re: NGT bans 10+ year old diesel vehicles in Kerala. EDIT: High Court stays ban

Quote:
Originally Posted by motorheart View Post
Update: High Court of Kerala stayed the Ban by NGT
Quote:
Originally Posted by shk 8896 View Post
Kerala High Court stays the National Green Tribunal's ban on registration of diesel cars above 2000cc for two months.

http://newsalerts.manoramaonline.com...lert-8488.html
To add, 10 year old diesel vehicles (above 2000cc) are still banned from plying in the restricted places. The stay is only for the ban for registration of new cars above 2000 cc.

Last edited by swiftnfurious : 27th May 2016 at 17:55.
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Old 27th May 2016, 18:24   #153
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Default re: NGT bans 10+ year old diesel vehicles in Kerala. EDIT: High Court stays ban

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Originally Posted by swiftnfurious View Post
To add, 10 year old diesel vehicles (above 2000cc) are still banned from plying in the restricted places. The stay is only for the ban for registration of new cars above 2000 cc.
Does anyone know what is the city limits for these 6 cities they have mentioned?

For example I live in Varapuzha & work at Kakanad. Both are part of Ernakulam District where Kochi city is . Now is Edapally, Kakanad, Kalmassery part of the city or would it be outside?

I would need to pick and choose my route from home to office and back... based on if this judgement continues..:-/

Secondly what is the pollution target NGT is trying to achieve in cities once these vehicles are removed? What is an allowed level of pollutants in our vehicles exhaust? Without any target, what is the purpose of the ban other than to increase sales for new vehicles...
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Old 27th May 2016, 19:59   #154
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This 10 year old diesel vehicle ban is applicable even for recently bought vehicles?
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Old 27th May 2016, 21:11   #155
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Default re: NGT bans 10+ year old diesel vehicles in Kerala. EDIT: High Court stays ban

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Originally Posted by Rahul Rao View Post

Smaller engines actually pollute more, not just by volume, but by pollutants in gms/km too. A 16 Ton bus powered by a 400 BHP 9 Lit Euro VI diesel in europe emits as less as 0.12 gm / km of NOx against a 2 Lit 150 BHP car that emits 0.35gm/ km. Cleaner burning lower speed bigger engines are actually needed. Read the Green car Congress reports. http://www.greencarcongress.com/2015...50929-toi.html just posting one link, but go through others too.

That is Kerala's own problem, all funds provided by 4 terms of central governments from 2000 till date are usually returned un utilized. Kerala shies away from land aquisition and road expansion even when funds are available. It is not limited few Kerala residents who should take the brunt of high handed NGT policies.

This is a different catagory of vehicles that sits between true SUV's and Sedans, and is the fastest growing one too.
Car engines and truck engines are designed with different objectives. The latter is designed primarily for torque.

Compare TATA 1613's Engine-6 litre, 6 cylinder,136 hp,500 nm of torque (approx) and TATA VARICOR engine -2.2 Litre,4 cylinder,150 bhp,320 nm of torque.

TATA extracts 14 more bhp from the VARICOR engine to run the SAFARI.

This comparison indicates that SUV engines and TRUCK engines are quite different.
A viable comparison would have been between a 1.5 Litre and a 2.5 or 3L engine
Advanced Truck engines especially the ones used in EUROPE are clean.

Now as far as Kerala's road width is concerned, It is impossible to go with 42 meters throughout the state because of high urbanisation and population density. The centre has given 32 m as the new limit.

Now the H.C has given a respite to new cars above 2000cc, which is a practical move.

Now, we have only an incentive for buyers to choose smaller cars, rather than a blanket ban on SUVs. That is more democratic.
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Old 27th May 2016, 21:46   #156
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Going by that logic, we will soon see a ban on 1500CC and above, as the infra is not growing while number of cars are increasing..
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Old 28th May 2016, 01:35   #157
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Default re: NGT bans 10+ year old diesel vehicles in Kerala. EDIT: High Court stays ban

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Originally Posted by shobhitk View Post

in present situation only 3 remedies are possible :-

(A) NGT on additional material before them, revises their previous orders. ( Chances very dim)
(B) Supreme Court reverses/modifies the NGT orders.
(C) The Parliament by 2/3 majority, amends the NGT order, but it will require the Government and the opposition to vote in favour of the new Law.
Quote:
Originally Posted by shk 8896 View Post
Kerala High Court stays the National Green Tribunal's ban on registration of diesel cars above 2000cc for two months.

l

It was the petition filed by the Nippon Toyota, on which The Kerala High Court has partially stayed the orders of the NGT.
The main plea of the Nippon Toyota was - the NGT passed the ban order without hearing the Diesel manufacture's side.

Interestingly in CIVIL APPEAL NO. 5017 OF 2016 (ARISING OUT OF S.L.P. (CIVIL) NO.6521 OF 2016) the Supreme Court on 11.05.2016, had QUASHED the orders of TRAI to penalize the telecom operators for call drops. the Supreme Court felt that before taking the decision, the TRAI had not consulted all the telecom operators and other interested parties.

AS the pleas of Nippon Toyota are similar to the defense taken by telecom operators and there is strong public sentiments on NGT orders, the final decision of Kerala High Court, when delivered, should be a trend setter.
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Old 28th May 2016, 07:19   #158
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I don't think in this case the Kerala high Court will be able to stay the NGT order for long. The SC has already given its nod to the NGT order in Delhi, in view of lack of any other alternative solution. The Kerala HC might use that as a precedent and go in favor of NGT.
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Old 28th May 2016, 09:39   #159
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Default re: NGT bans 10+ year old diesel vehicles in Kerala. EDIT: High Court stays ban

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Haddock View Post
This comparison indicates that SUV engines and TRUCK engines are quite different.
A viable comparison would have been between a 1.5 Litre and a 2.5 or 3L engine
If that is what you want to compare check the only two medium budget cross overs (not compromises) in the market. out a 1.5 Lit 109BHP Lodgy and a 2.2 Lit 140Bhp XUV500. On a 100 -110 kmh highway run both return about 15 kmpl. It is actually not a fair comparison as the XUV is much heavier.

In city the XUV takes corners in 3rd gear where the Lodgy needs down shifting to as low as 1st. Go over a big speed breaker and see this.
Drive on a highway, at 80, and even over the minor ups and downs the xuv engine is ticking away at a silent 1400 RPM in 6th, while the Lodgy driver is constantly shifting between 5th and 6th as the big turbo needed for the Lodgy doesn't let the engine come in torque range at cruising speeds.

No check same car with two engine size options. BMW 520 and BMW 530.
In city the 520 idles at 850 RPM where as the 530 at 600 RPM. With steady city driving (Light foot) the gearbox keeps the 2 Lit in the 520 in the 1200 to 1800 range, while the 3 Lit engine remains in the 1000 to 1500 RPM range. With a moderately heavy foot on the highways, both return about 14, but if you want to draw efficiency out of the engines (no one really does it except probably to show) and drive with a feathers foot the 3 Lit can return 19 while the 2 Lit doesn't exceed 17. Yes drive flat out, and the efficiency from the 3 Lit will drop down to about 9 a km less than the 2 Lit.
We have actually tried out this efficiency in fellow Pune members 530D.
The same gear transmission combo in X3 20D and 30D gives just about 5 to 7 % less.

Read few automotive forums world over, when american companies down shifted from V8' to V6's they actually lost in efficiency. I6 engines were better for efficiency as well as low end torque, but needed more space under the hood.

Rahul

Last edited by GTO : 31st May 2016 at 17:52. Reason: Typos
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Old 28th May 2016, 13:54   #160
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Default re: NGT bans 10+ year old diesel vehicles in Kerala. EDIT: High Court stays ban

This ban do not differentiate between private ( white board) use vehicles and taxi / commercial (Yellow Board) vehicles right? What are the chances of getting relief for private vehicles? Can a PIL be filed? I would be happy to contribute to the cause. I am based in Bangalore. My Innova is 10 years old. This has been by vehicle of choice for trips to my native place in Kerala. Soon I have to decide whether to sell off my vehicle or keep it based on the outcome of this issue. Sadly I do not find much choice for an equally spacious 7 seater vehicle that has a lower than 2000 cc engine with the same reliability reputation as the Innova. Any comments / advice?
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Old 28th May 2016, 16:06   #161
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Default re: NGT bans 10+ year old diesel vehicles in Kerala. EDIT: High Court stays ban

Nippon Toyota might just get enough time to offload their Crysta stock, I feel. Other than that, the future seems bleak for 2000+cc Diesels in Kerala also.

The "why 2000, why not 1500 or 2500 or some other cc" question might not hold grounds in the courts. There has to be a cut off / ceiling in some cases, and questioning the logic of that does not usually work in the courts.

The issue of 15 years tax paid is also difficult to navigate successfully. It is only in 6 cities that 10 year+ vehicles are banned. A vehicle may ply in the rest of the state. And in every city, there is already some form of discrimination between vehicles- like fixed time for goods vehicles or school buses, or roads closed for heavy vehicles, etc. So if the NGT uses a criterion of >10 years, it is difficult to be challenged as being arbitrary and unfair.

Those owners of 10+ year old vehicles who have their residential addresses within these 6 cities, may hope for a partial refund of the road tax paid, but then the MVD might ask to cancel their registration.

I hope that the government gets it act together, and implement a CNG scheme without any further delay, and the appeal court allows buses, school buses, ambulances and police/ fires & rescue vehicles to continue till then.
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Old 28th May 2016, 16:18   #162
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Haddock View Post
The centre has given 32 m as the new limit.
That was a suggestion put forward by all party meeting to the Central government, which was rejected. As of now NHAI has closed down land acquisition offices which was meant for LA of NHs in Edapally-Thalappady stretch and Cherthala-Kazhakootom stretch.
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Old 28th May 2016, 17:26   #163
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In Delhi, it was done as short term measure. I don't think it is a sustainable model. We have emission standards which are fairly good. The only point is that we need to have controls which checks the adherence and that would be the long term strategy. I don't think we can ban the trucks and buses for a country like India where 90% goods movement happens on road.
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Old 28th May 2016, 17:35   #164
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Default re: NGT bans 10+ year old diesel vehicles in Kerala. EDIT: High Court stays ban

It seems the new government is largely supportive of the NGT order, but only wants more time.
Quote:
Kozhikode: The government is not opposing the National Green Tribunal order restricting movement of diesel vehicles in the state, said Transport
Minister A K Saseendran.
Quote:
“Hence, the government need enough time. In this connection, legal advice has been sought from the AG,” he said.
Read more at: http://english.mathrubhumi.com/news/...news-1.1091402
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Old 28th May 2016, 18:09   #165
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Default re: NGT bans 10+ year old diesel vehicles in Kerala. EDIT: High Court stays ban

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Originally Posted by MinivanDriver View Post
Can a PIL be filed? I would be happy to contribute to the cause. I am based in Bangalore. My Innova is 10 years old. This has been by vehicle of choice for trips to my native place in Kerala. Soon I have to decide whether to sell off my vehicle or keep it based on the outcome of this issue. Sadly I do not find much choice for an equally spacious 7 seater vehicle that has a lower than 2000 cc engine with the same reliability reputation as the Innova. Any comments / advice?

The Legal Jurisprudence states that :-
  • good things are followed by people.
  • good things when followed by the community, becomes 'custom'.
  • When a 'custom' is codified or is approved by the Government, it becomes Law.
It means that only those things should become Law, which are liked by the people. It will be sad to part with a good vehicle like Innova, for the reason that suddenly the law has changed.


Even if the vehicles are being banned to save the environment, there should be a deep study to know the extent of damage, caused by the diesel cars.


When a farmer has to part with his piece of land in favour of the Government, the farmer gets good compensation Similarly, , the government SHOULD be ready to pay the compensation at market price, for each car which goes off the road on account of sudden change in policy.
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