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Old 24th May 2016, 17:36   #76
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KSRTC Way of safe environment. This guy been on smoke all way. pic.twitter.com/KUsBpxaMUY
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Old 24th May 2016, 17:49   #77
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Default re: NGT bans 10+ year old diesel vehicles in Kerala. EDIT: High Court stays ban

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Originally Posted by Captain Haddock View Post
Today's THE HINDU has reported that diesel exhaust is more dangerous and SUVs which are mostly affected by 2000 cc cap pollute more than cars.

This ruling has been in the pipeline,Mr Jairam Ramesh had considered such steps to curb rampant SUV culture during the UPA govt's tenure.
All these are very funny to see from the ring side. Banning doesn't serve any purpose, finding solution does! Lets not make SUV a bad guy! Why not government come with stringent emission norms, the manufacturer will follow. The government has been struggling to even pass the Road Safety Bill for very very long now!

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As per our deomocratic tradition,SUVs should not be banned but discouraged by these kind of laws.
A SUV can be made with petrol workhorse too, lets talk technology. These NGT guys do not get high-end vehicles, so to throw out their frustrations they are banning SUVs

By the way Indian Army recently acquired these http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...perations.html (Border Forces purchase Toyota Fortuner & Ford Endeavour for high altitude operations)
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Old 24th May 2016, 18:20   #78
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Default re: NGT bans 10+ year old diesel vehicles in Kerala. EDIT: High Court stays ban

Every tax collection center taxes the hell out of SUV's and bigger engined vehicles. Whether its Excise Duty, VAT or Road Tax, the slabs and rates of tax are the highest for these cars. These Govt departments will be the biggest losers if these 'tax cows' are banned

I can't understand why all of a sudden this hatred towards 2000 cc + vehicles.

I think somebody needs to a test :
1) Load seven passengers in a wheezy 1.5 litre seven seater and drive it up a hill or over a small distance.
2) Do the same in a 2.5 litre seven seater.

I am sure the 1.5L will struggle to cope with the weight and the driver will end up flooring the throttle and end up polluting more than the 2.5L which will pull effortlessly.

Many people buy big SUVs so that the whole family can travel together. Isn't it better to make them travel in one car rather than splitting them up in 2 cars?

As long as these cars pass present day emission tests, I can't understand the logic of these bans.
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Old 24th May 2016, 18:40   #79
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Default re: NGT bans 10+ year old diesel vehicles in Kerala. EDIT: High Court stays ban

These rules will not stick. The ban in Delhi was by the supreme court, and they are currently taking expert opinion from experts to judge weather this ban was justified or not. http://www.deccanchronicle.com/natio...eme-court.html Secondly look into the engines being developed for emission norms after Euro IV there is none below 2.7 Lit and 5 cylinders.
NGT has a authorised strength of 20 members, it was started with 5 Judiciary, and 5 Expert members expansion was to take place later. Let the quorum be full, and let some of the planted members finish their terms and be replaced. The situation should defer.
Lastly any thing heavy powered by a petrol engine is plain dumb. We use small petrol engines which do not generate adequate torque. The SUV's like Toyota Landcruizer Prado available with Petrol V8's are absolute gas guselers, 3-4 km/Lit is the norm. In comparison, diesels of 25% smaller size give better torque, run more effortlessly, and return close to 10 km/Lit. Today the market is US inspired, let it turn Europe inspired, and see how Petrol turns bad and diesel turns good.

Rahul
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Old 24th May 2016, 18:43   #80
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Default re: NGT bans 10+ year old diesel vehicles in Kerala. EDIT: High Court stays ban

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Originally Posted by Captain Haddock View Post
The money so extracted from the weakest sections is one of the sources which finance diesel subsidy.

Even Kofi Annan has stated that the subsidy system is flawed and goes against basic principles of public finance.
What Subsidy are you speaking off? Is there any subsidy on diesel? I believe more than subsidy there are only government taxes now.

I am sad to hear this verdict and unfortunately own a vehicle that completes 10 years this month. I travel from a panchayath and in ten km pass through a corporation to go to another muncipality... looks like I will have to take deviations to travel only through muncipalities or panchayaths for daily work burning more fuel daily.

Its another absurd rule like the sunfilm rule made at the whims by so called experts with little or no idea of things. If pollution was the main issue, they should have waited till metro functions and see if the pollution reduces if they were looking at long term views.. feeling frustrated!!
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Old 24th May 2016, 18:50   #81
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Default re: NGT bans 10+ year old diesel vehicles in Kerala. EDIT: High Court stays ban

Diesel is subsidized in India, has always been. I think it accounts to a handful of billions of dollars per year.

Not endorsing the ban, but the 2000CC+ vehicles unless used to ply a lot of passengers may be deemed as a luxury. It certainly cannot be compared to Sunfilm ban. Pollution effects are already showing.
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Old 24th May 2016, 19:08   #82
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From what I can see this is a way to force luxury users to buy petrol vehicles instead of diesel. I have a merc which is over 2000 cc and is a diesel. While I have my own worries on what will happen to me in another 9 years it is now a point to see if my next big car for luxury trips be a petrol or not. For city run abouts can think of electric cars or small diesel which is more efficient (all would agree diesel car is more efficient than it's petrol counterpart).
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Old 24th May 2016, 19:10   #83
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Default re: NGT bans 10+ year old diesel vehicles in Kerala. EDIT: High Court stays ban

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Originally Posted by ashokrajagopal View Post
Diesel is subsidized in India, has always been. I think it accounts to a handful of billions of dollars per year.

.
Can you show me where Diesel is subsidized? Please provide facts. As far as I remember any diesel subsidy was removed in 2014 November.
We only have subsidy on kerosene and LPG is what I am aware of. Correct me forum members if I am wrong.

Dont get me wrong, I am not against anti pollution drives. But I believe the focus is wrong. When I lived in Kuwait, every year my dad had to take his car for pollution verification after a certain year and if it passed the PUC test only would it be allowed to continue on the road. Unlike here where a PUC certificate is issued by kids who do not even know what the reading is as its a self employment opportunity, serious NGT personnel should understand working solutions and take action. A intelligent tribunal would not make such blanket rules.

Its exactly like the sunfilm rule, no research no alternatives, no solutions. Do or die. But unfortunately the fines involved are heavy and unlike sunfilms, there is no way to change the manufacturing dates of engines to make it less than ten years old, even though its a 1.9 litre engine.

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Old 24th May 2016, 19:10   #84
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Originally Posted by Captain Haddock View Post
KSRTC has stated that only 10 percentage of their vehicles are over 10 years. Source-The Hindu
But 99% or maybe even more o of the KSRTC Buses pollute a hundred times more than any fortuner or innova I've ever come across. If you do drive two wheelers, youl notice that it's almost impossible to stay somewhere even close to their exhausts!.
And then the commercial vehicles, the amount of smoke these vehicles emit is much much more than What a 2500cc car would emit. Heck even a Three wheeler commercial vehicle emits more smoke than a ten year old Innova.

I realy hope someone files a counter petition to this and this law gets scrapped.


Edit:
Forgot to add the point on the diesel excise being twice of that of petrol.Who compensates for that as well,albeit a small Amount. Diesel isn't subsidised as many of us think, it's just the lesser taxed fuel.
Even if they actually wanted to implement something like this,it should be done in some 5-6years and with a lot of thought on everything. It's not something that should be done on one fine morning!.

Second Edit:
Someone pointed out that a big SUV is a luxury. What's wrong in buying luxury if you can afford it. You are taxed to the core before buying a big car. The taxes on larger cars are much greater than small cars too. If you are willing to pay the mountain of taxes to the government and buy yourself the car, what's wrong in it.

Last edited by VRPAI : 24th May 2016 at 19:37.
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Old 24th May 2016, 19:45   #85
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Default re: NGT bans 10+ year old diesel vehicles in Kerala. EDIT: High Court stays ban

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Originally Posted by chakky View Post
Can you show me where Diesel is subsidized? I think we have a few illiterate users in the forum who are here just to sloganeering. Please provide facts. As far as I remember any diesel subsidy was removed in 2014 November.
We only have subsidy on kerosene and LPG is what I am aware of. Correct me forum members if I am wrong.

Dont get me wrong, I am not against anit pollution drives. But I believe the focus is wrong. When I lived in Kuwait, every year my dad had to take his car for pollution verification after a certain year and if it passed the PUC test only would it be allowed to continue on the road. Unlike here where a PUC certificate is issued by kids who do not even know what the reading is as its a self employment opportunity, serious NGT personnel should understand working solutions and take action. A intelligent tribunal would not make such blanket rules.

Its exactly like the sunfilm rule, no research no alternatives, no solutions. Do or die. But unfortunately the fines involved are heavy and unlike sunfilms, there is no way to change the manufacturing dates of engines to make it less than ten years old, even though its a 1.9 litre engine.
Diesel is deregulated since 2014, such that govt does not fix the price on diesel, but the government owned companies do. A lot of money still goes in there, as a direct or indirect subsidy. And lesser taxes on diesel.

I did not endorse the ban, nor did I slogan for anything. More than 2000cc to ply a single person can be considered a luxury. I dint even say diesel only.
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Old 24th May 2016, 19:51   #86
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Default re: NGT bans 10+ year old diesel vehicles in Kerala. EDIT: High Court stays ban

I firmly believe this ban as always will only benefit the automobile industry and not the environment. I wouldn't be surprised if this ban comes for smaller petrol and diesel cars sometime in the near future. People will have to roll their cars every 8-10 years now and they will be of not much use in the used car market either. This equals to more sales for the industry. The nicely laid out long term plan to compensate for the potential sales hit due to increase in cost in adding safety features.
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Old 24th May 2016, 20:10   #87
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Originally Posted by chakky View Post
Can you show me where Diesel is subsidized? I think we have a few illiterate users in the forum who are here just to sloganeering. Please provide facts. As far as I remember any diesel subsidy was removed in 2014 November.
We only have subsidy on kerosene and LPG is what I am aware of. Correct me forum members if I am wrong.
.
Diesel prices are now controlled by oil companies, not the government post 2014, this may not mean that the actual cost is fully passed on to the end consumer, please correct me if I'm wrong.

Deregulation may not mean De- subsidizing.

'Illiterate' is too strong a word to be used in this elite forum.

The MVD of kerala will file an appeal once the new government is sworn in.

The ruling is correct in spirit but will face glitches in the implementation phase.

The chances of this ruling getting implemented in the present form are remote.

Despite the glitches, I believe it's a move in the right direction.

Since most members have a different take on this let's agree to disagree.


P S - Again,I would like to remind esteemed members of the forum that we can criticise the ruling but using Un parliamentary language against the tribunal can be considered as contempt of court.
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Old 24th May 2016, 20:20   #88
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Default re: NGT bans 10+ year old diesel vehicles in Kerala. EDIT: High Court stays ban

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Originally Posted by chakky View Post
I think we have a few illiterate users in the forum who are here just to sloganeering. Please provide facts.
You need to tone down sir. There is a better way of putting your point across. Let's try to keep our discourse civil.
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Old 24th May 2016, 20:40   #89
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Default re: NGT bans 10+ year old diesel vehicles in Kerala. EDIT: High Court stays ban

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Originally Posted by phoenixash View Post
OT: This is absolutely backwards. No "adivasi" who can't afford two square meals a day is paying taxes anyway - agricultural income in India is not taxed and given that only 2% of our population is paying tax, this is really NOT an issue.

The diesel subsidy is in-fact for our rural population to run their tractors / generators etc. I'm sure a Fortuner owner will willingly pay the unsubsidized cost of diesel if it's available at such price.

Also, if our roads are too narrow for SUVs how are buses and commercial vehicles ok to ply?
To substantiate your comments phoenixash, the government has ended subsidies on diesel. Only kerosene and LPG are subsidised as fuels. It is more than a year since diesel has been deregulated and free-priced, based on market forces.

True, earlier till the UPA II and early months of the NDA government, diesel remained a subsidised fuel.

http://time.com/3524340/india-modi-diesel-subsidies/

So no adivasi or any "Bharat Vasi" is paying to subsidise diesel.

Last edited by anjan_c2007 : 24th May 2016 at 20:43.
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Old 24th May 2016, 20:48   #90
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Default re: NGT bans 10+ year old diesel vehicles in Kerala. EDIT: High Court stays ban

Tax fuel around 100% and then give a meagre reduction called subsidy.... thats a different story...

NGT should first fix the pollution check mockery which is existing in India first....and then look at banning vehicles....Now look at this bus, i am sure this would be equal to n number of 2000CCs...

https://twitter.com/anzieee/status/7...710336/video/1
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