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Old 24th May 2016, 21:05   #91
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Default re: NGT bans 10+ year old diesel vehicles in Kerala. EDIT: High Court stays ban

I have booked Brezza ZDI. Shall I reconsider my booking of diesel car or purchase the same?. Confused now. Please share your valuable opinion.
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Old 24th May 2016, 21:57   #92
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Default re: NGT bans 10+ year old diesel vehicles in Kerala. EDIT: High Court stays ban

Did I read right from http://www.greentribunal.gov.in/Writ...A23-5-2016.pdf

"Shall not register any vehicle with capacity of 2000cc and above except public transport and local authority vehicle"

The "Not Register" refers to new vehicles ?


"All the diesel vehicles, whether light or heavy, which are more than 10 year old, shall not be permitted to ply on the road"

Does that mean old KSRTC buses and any lorries will not be allowed to ply including private vehicles ?
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Old 24th May 2016, 23:02   #93
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Default re: NGT bans 10+ year old diesel vehicles in Kerala. EDIT: High Court stays ban

Please be assured that none of the oil marketing companies (PSU ones) are not getting any subsidies on diesel sold through their retail outlets. And yes De-Regulation means - No Subsidy.

As some of the members have pointed out that although diesel prices have been de-regulated still they are fixed by govt. owned corporations. However one must understand that when govt de regulates the prices and gives the authority of pricing to the respective PSU they also take away the subsidy on the product. So in other words say if the price in open market for diesel is Rs.100 per litre and suddenly PSUs decide to sell it at 98 rupees a litre then they will be bearing the balance cost of 2 rupees a litre from they own coffers and govt. will not pay a dime of subsidy on the same.

Further on the matter of which vehicle pollutes more, one can not go on comparing a 2.4 L petrol engine with 1.5 L diesel engine. A basic research will show that petrol in general is a cleaner fuel and burns with lesser amount of residues.Diesel emissions have been categorised as carcinogenic. Since Petrol is a lighter fuel meaning fewer number of carbon molecules or smaller chained hydro carbons thus by products usually result in complete combustion as compared to heavier fuels like kerosine or diesel. Theoretically efficiency/average of petrol engine is also higher than that of diesel however in reality it is not possible to achieve similar compression ratios for petrol thus diesel engines end up giving better average or in other words consuming lesser fuel per litre. This argument gives a sense that diesel vehicle will be polluting less than petrol driven vehicle but in reality the definition of pollution can itself be categorised as particulate and gaseous. And although there are not very data driven statistics available on the topic and the matter is very much debatable, petrol vehicles are still considered to be less polluting.

Please note that i do not suggest that one should go on and buy a bigger petrol/diesel engine or for that matter any fuel guzzler since burning of any type of fossil fuel is harsh on the environment and should be used conservatively in order to sustain. In my opinion EVs are the way to go in future. Authorities should subsidise electric vehicles or more sustainable technologies rather than introducing blanket bans. Making environment friendly technologies cheaper and efficient will be better way to dissuade people from burning fossil fuels.

I make these submissions with a heavy heart because i think there is always a little bit of child in all of us which demands big engines producing XXX horses keeping the economics or science of it at bay and just drive into the horizon without a care in the world. However we have to face the realities. Just imagine what would have happened to a city like Delhi if CNG was not made mandatory for public transport (Remember that burning sensation in your eyes??) or if metro would not have been introduced helping in reduction of motor vehicles (no matter how small). My point being even though introduction of Euro-3, Euro-4 (BS-III, BS-IV) standards have helped the cause, burning of fossil fuels has always been the cause of worry.

And we should all think of ways to save the environment cause no matter how small it may feel, "Boond Boond se saagar bharta hai"

My apologies for the long rant and i hope i made a little sense in the matter.

Last edited by suhaas307 : 25th May 2016 at 11:35. Reason: Improving readability, please read the Announcements for tips on posting. Thanks :)
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Old 24th May 2016, 23:29   #94
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Default re: NGT bans 10+ year old diesel vehicles in Kerala. EDIT: High Court stays ban

My apologies for sounding rude, I take back the illiterate comment as well as sloganeering.

What I was trying to say is here we are focussed on the ruling and I see a few people coming in with diesel subsidy repeatedly and poor adivasis suffering which I felt was wrong. I highlighted it earlier too and then I got a in billions subsidy as the next response which I felt was just a wild throw.

Having lived in Kuwait and seen my friends who work in oil companies here, they spend a lot of extravagant money to calculate their cost of selling diesel or petrol. Add the taxes which are then poured back as subsidy cut either to upstream providers or downstream providers, they do make money. How else do we account for reliance making 1000 of crores every year in refining. We even are just in the process of clearing 6.4 billion dollars worth of crude money back to Iran accumulated over the years..so if you ask me all the excise taxes we pay go to the government. As usual it's used to subsidize the many schemes they have and it's the middle class salaried folks who face the brunt of it. Businesses avail depreciation benefits so they can write off cars.

Anyway I am sorry for deviating but I do hope this outlandish judgement is corrected to a more useful ruling like proper vehicle pollution checks done for vehicles annually by non corrupt mvd checks. Seizing malfunctioning vehicles with exhaust smoke exceeding limits...
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Old 25th May 2016, 00:04   #95
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Default re: NGT bans 10+ year old diesel vehicles in Kerala. EDIT: High Court stays ban

Quote:
In the meanwhile, the State of Kerala shall not register any diesel vehicle with the capacity of 2000 cc and above, except public transport and local authority vehicle. Further, we direct that all the diesel vehicles, whether light or heavy, which are more than 10 years old, shall not be permitted to ply on the road in major cities like Thiruvananthapuram, Kollam, Kochi, Thrissur, Calicut and Kannur.
This is a very arbitrary ruling by the NGT and does not make an iota of sense to me.
  • It is not clear what local authority vehicle means?
  • Are Ambulances, Fire Trucks included in the public transport and local authority vehicle?
  • How about private buses, trucks, cranes, JCBs, etc? By this ruling, none of this can be registered in Kerala or will these come under public transport and local authority vehicle?
  • By saying Kerala shall not register any diesel vehicle with the capacity of 2000 cc and above, it is clear that vehicles registered in other states can ply in the state. Will that not result in a lot of cross border registration? Kerala MVD will have to do the kind of work Karnataka RTOs did when the 30 day ruling came into picture.

Coming to the second part of the ruling,
  • When it is said, all the diesel vehicles, whether light or heavy, which are more than 10 years old, shall not be permitted to ply on the road in major cities, is it applicable for new registrations also? Will new diesel vehicles registrations be valid only for 10 years? Will road tax be collected for 10 years only?
  • Will tax refund be done for all vehicles whose registration is going to be invalid soon (aged 10 -15 yrs)?
  • How about the vehicles that was registered in the last few years - all of those are compliant to all the pollution regulations currently in place - will they be banned too in their 10th year of operation? - this is silly.
  • Kerala is a highly consumer oriented state - How are stuff from other states including vegetables, rice, clothes, anything and everything including new cars and bikes going to reach Kerala? Will they be stopped in the border - stuff reloaded into newer / smaller vehicles and transported across the state? Wonderful decision NGT!!!

If the aim was to reduce pollution, implement stricter emission regulations and intensify drives to fine vehicles without PUC certificate. If the aim was to promote Petrol vehicles or reduce diesel vehicles, tax diesel vehicles heavily and / or provide subsidy to petrol vehicles. I am a non-believer of electric vehicles and their contribution to pollution control. Reasons here (The Electric Vehicle (EV) Landscape - A Deep Dive).

This ruling is short sighted and not goal oriented. Hope the Government of Kerala challenges this in the court and comes out victorious.
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Old 25th May 2016, 00:08   #96
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Default re: NGT bans 10+ year old diesel vehicles in Kerala. EDIT: High Court stays ban

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hemant_Joshi View Post
Does this apply only to KL Registered vehicles ? What about vehicles transiting Kerala ?

NGT is fast becoming a Joke, and Banning seems to be a favorite action of Govt, Quasi Govt entities, for anything that they are NOT able to handle scientifically or with common sense approach,
Another decision taken with scant regard to implementation.. big noise on paper and practically useless,

Mahindra's 1.9L XUV is a classic case of how such decisions can be circumvented,, Cant figure out, how a 1.9 L engine can be any less polluting than a 2.0L engine, with NO other changes or technical advancements...

1. The order of NGT prohibits plying of any diesel vehicle in the the 6 indicated cities. As such, even the diesel vehicles, which are 10 year old will not be allowed to ply, even if they are registered at some other place.
2. Comments about the judicial/quasi judicial authorities should be made with due care as the NGT comprises of very senior retired judges of the Supreme Court.
3. fair criticism of the judgement is permissible, but nothing beyond it.
4. The aggrieved parties will definitely go to Supreme Court for clarification/modification of the order.
5. No doubt a diesl car might be only 4 years old but might have completed more than 3 lakh KM.distance. There might be another car, which a user might be having for 13 years but might have traveled only for 60000 KM. The older car will definitely be cleaner car than the new car. If such arguments are brought before NGT or Supreme Court, there might be second look by them on the existing orders og NGT.
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Old 25th May 2016, 01:23   #97
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Default re: NGT bans 10+ year old diesel vehicles in Kerala. EDIT: High Court stays ban

I'm wondering if the odd-even rule will also make its' way to Kerala soon

Is CNG feasible here? Will a CNG bus or truck climb the Kerala hilly terrains?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrvSafe View Post
I have booked Brezza ZDI. Shall I reconsider my booking of diesel car or purchase the same?. Confused now. Please share your valuable opinion.
It does not affect a Breeza which is just 1.3L. At least, as of now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kannan View Post
Did I read right from

The "Not Register" refers to new vehicles ?

Does that mean old KSRTC buses and any lorries will not be allowed to ply including private vehicles ?
Of course yes, to both your questions. The ban is for 2000+ cc new diesel and 2000+ cc 10+ year old diesels.
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Old 25th May 2016, 01:47   #98
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Default re: NGT bans 10+ year old diesel vehicles in Kerala. EDIT: High Court stays ban

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Originally Posted by jkdas View Post
Interesting but would this work? KSRTC and other will have a big number of old diesels.
Sun film ban, silencer ban and now this; lets see they implement this too.
My feeling is that it is mainly a publicity or media oriented gimmick.

Too many practical difficulties will be there to implement it. More than half of the local KSRTC buses, tempos, TTs, mini lorries and lorries will be greater than 10 years or nudging that limit. If all of them are going to be taken off the road and/or heavy penalties imposed, we can definitely see some strike calls by all these operators, which will in turn affect the common man

Pollution is definitely an issue to be tackled, but doing it half-baked manner like this is really insane. I really don't understand the logic of only targeting a particular class of vehicle.

I guess the Govt and Cops are going to be a happy lot - They have one more way to levy fines and milk some money out the owners of vehicles! Probably, vehicle manufacturers also will benefit - as people with heavy vehicles will be forced to change the vehicles after 10 years!


http://www.air-quality.org.uk/26.php

See the above link for some more finer details on the pros and cons of various fuels.

Last edited by haria : 25th May 2016 at 01:57.
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Old 25th May 2016, 02:51   #99
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Default re: NGT bans 10+ year old diesel vehicles in Kerala. EDIT: High Court stays ban

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Originally Posted by haria View Post

I guess the Govt and Cops are going to be a happy lot - They have one more way to levy fines and milk some money out the owners of vehicles!
Kerala has always been the favourite state for law makers. Any new Law can be implemented first here in Kerala without much difficulty as the Cops are super energetic to harass the common man on road. It has become a part of Kerala Lifestyle now. I clearly remember an incident happened just a few months ago when a young IT guy with his family was stopped on road close to midnight near Paliyekkara toll booth on the Cochin- Trichur NH47. He was harassed and the vehicle documents were forcefully taken away by a DYDP in civil dress. He got transferred to Kasargod for his unjustifiable action, but, was brought back to the same city within a week with the support of the politicians. Eevn the HM said, in his support, "its a small incident.. Don't make it Large". This is an example of the treatment given to the tax paying common man on Kerala Roads.

In this case also, The Kerala media will use words like "saftey, environment" etc & will hail NGT & support any new ruling, even if it affects a million people.The people too, are unorganized & uninterested to raise any protest whatsoever. They will just pass it on as just another order & will start obeying the law from the very next day, because the traffic policemen will always jump on to you. The Sunfilm ban is most efficient in Kerala, where most of the top officials still use their Govt allotted Luxury cars with full curtains on.
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Old 25th May 2016, 05:32   #100
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Default re: NGT bans 10+ year old diesel vehicles in Kerala. EDIT: High Court stays ban

What a stupid, short-sighted decision.

Not everybody can suddenly go and buy a new car. Many people depend on everyday income from their cars (like taxis and goods companies), what is going to happen to those businesses?

And even if people want to sell their cars - who is going to buy them? Is the government going to buy the cars back and compensate the people? What about the insurance/road tax/registration etc. that has already been contributed by the owners of these cars to the state? And what is going to happen to the tens of thousands of these cars on the roads? Who is going to pay for their disposal? Has the court even considered the environmental costs of disposal of these cars?

Improving public transport and tightening regulations regarding pollution would go a long way to solving India's pollution issues. An outright ban is short-sighted and will have far-reaching repercussions.
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Old 25th May 2016, 07:30   #101
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Default re: NGT bans 10+ year old diesel vehicles in Kerala. EDIT: High Court stays ban

If this ban is adopted in a few more states then sales of diesel cars and their resale values would drop drastically.

Most buy a car thinking about future resale and this could create huge changes in the market dynamics with the Japanese makers having an edge over others in Petrol powered cars. Also there would be no takers for 7-8 year old diesel cars and those would possibly sell of peanuts even if it the cars were well maintained.

I hope that this judgement is appealed in a higher court and the ban order repealed.
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Old 25th May 2016, 09:10   #102
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Default re: NGT bans 10+ year old diesel vehicles in Kerala. EDIT: High Court stays ban

1. Thankyou for clarifying

2/3. How does it matter, when the decisions they are handing out are lopsided, cannot be properly implemented - Who is going to verify, How old a vehicle is, Is our Traffic police, RTO equipped to implement this order in even, remotely effective manner? All is great having a law on paper but Will not solve the problem - which it was intended to address,
Whats the point of delivering an Order, which contains inherent built-in constructs for poor implementation, exceptions and scope for almost certain challenge/appeal by parties involved,,

4/5. Exactly my point, this approach of banning this and banning that, without much thought to either implementation or real benefits - even if fairly implemented, will not solve the problem.

Solution has to be a strong and efficient public transport, strengthing related infrastructure - like better roads, more stringent pollution norms to manufacturers, massive aforestation and public awareness campaign, support and incentives for R&D on maximizing efficiency of fossil fuel powered energy, Sops and incentives to move towards increased and mandatory use of clean and renewable energy,


Quote:
Originally Posted by shobhitk View Post
1. The order of NGT prohibits plying of any diesel vehicle in the the 6 indicated cities. As such, even the diesel vehicles, which are 10 year old will not be allowed to ply, even if they are registered at some other place.

2. Comments about the judicial/quasi judicial authorities should be made with due care as the NGT comprises of very senior retired judges of the Supreme Court.

3. fair criticism of the judgement is permissible, but nothing beyond it.

4. The aggrieved parties will definitely go to Supreme Court for clarification/modification of the order.

5. No doubt a diesl car might be only 4 years old but might have completed more than 3 lakh KM.distance. There might be another car, which a user might be having for 13 years but might have traveled only for 60000 KM. The older car will definitely be cleaner car than the new car. If such arguments are brought before NGT or Supreme Court, there might be second look by them on the existing orders og NGT.
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Old 25th May 2016, 09:45   #103
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Default re: NGT bans 10+ year old diesel vehicles in Kerala. EDIT: High Court stays ban

The pricing of fuels both Petrol and Diesel on 1 Jan 2016.
http://www.slideshare.net/MuraliD1/p...ak-up-in-india Import rates vary daily, but this will tell us how much they tax diesel and how much more they tax petrol.
The oil prices need to rise to sustain the curent world economy, how best to do that, increase consumption, so encourage Petrol which is half as thermally effecient as diesel and push crude demand up. A few years later when prices grow again, petrol will be considered as bad due to global warming etc, and diesel good again. Politics is a dirty game, which decides these policies.

See our countries crude import export and payments for the last 5 years clearly. the current government came to power with $ 6.5 Billion unpayed bills for crude import from Iran, It took them the last 18 months to pay the old bills, large part of this came from the additional exise duty charged. leave alone subsidy if pricing and taxes were reasonable, both Petrol and diesel would have been at about Rs 30/ Lit.

Rahul
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Old 25th May 2016, 09:58   #104
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Default re: NGT bans 10+ year old diesel vehicles in Kerala. EDIT: High Court stays ban

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Originally Posted by DrvSafe View Post
I have booked Brezza ZDI. Shall I reconsider my booking of diesel car or purchase the same?. Confused now. Please share your valuable opinion.
If possible defer purchase by 6 months and wait to see how people will react going forward. In Kerala, people do react unlike other cities. One day strike / hartal ( as they call it ) should be possible

I think the diesel ban might come for all engine capacities going forward. Why to live with fear. Go for the ZXI variant .

Such bans could trigger new technology getting introduced to Indian market but feel pity for owners who have spend hard earned money for high end diesel cars. Who wouldn't like a 1000 cc petrol turbo generating 200 NM torque. lets wait and watch
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Old 25th May 2016, 11:07   #105
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Default re: NGT bans 10+ year old diesel vehicles in Kerala. EDIT: High Court stays ban

Bans likely in other major cities.

Quote:
“The directions passed in regard to NCT, would safely be applied for all these cities. But before we pass orders in that regard, in relation to all the major cities in the country, we would like the CPCB to place complete and comprehensive data,” the Bench said.
http://www.thehindu.com/news/nationa...cle8643302.ece
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