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Old 30th May 2016, 12:36   #16
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Default Re: Why engine capacity-based diesel vehicle bans don't make any sense

Great Work!
But, there is more bad news in the offing.

NGT’s diesel vehicle ban may extend to more cities like Kolkata, Mumbai, Bengaluru.

Read more at:
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/...campaign=cppst
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Old 30th May 2016, 12:48   #17
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Default Re: Some more data analysis

Excellent analysis TSK, and thanks for this! It's amazing how with just strong will you were able to collate the data and arrive at a researched conclusion, yet the NGT is doling out knee-jerk judgements based on nil-data.

Seems to be the result of lobbying from manufacturers who do not have strong diesels (Maruti, Honda) in their arsenal rather than researched judgements. Shame!

You should use this data to file a PIL against the NGT's judgement, the Supreme Court had stated in its extension of the diesel ban in Delhi that the court is under the impression that diesels are more polluting, but will reconsider their stance with some hard data. I'm surprised Toyota / Mercedes have not put together similar data to present to the court!

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Originally Posted by Srikanthan View Post
P.S: By the way, I'm still waiting for the magic call from my VW dealer to fit the flow transformer in my Vento's 1.6L EA 189 engine!
The VW recall is expected to go live in June, they have not currently received approval from ARAI on their proposed solution.

P.S. - I include Suzuki in above given that their best selling diesel model is actually the Fiat 1.3 MJD engine for which Suzuki is paying royalties to FCA for each engine. Suzuki has only last year developed their own diesel with the 2-pot burner in the Celerio, and they still have a while to go until they can compete with Hyundai / Renault / Tata's in-house diesels.

Last edited by phoenixash : 30th May 2016 at 12:57.
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Old 30th May 2016, 12:57   #18
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Default Re: Why engine capacity-based diesel vehicle bans don't make any sense

Excellent analysis, it was badly needed to throw some light on this issue!

This is quite sad! It's the result of the decision being made without any data points on what type of vehicles contribute to the pollution. Even if setting up a research lab for Indian cars would've taken time, they could've at least consulted experts on this!

Why can't vehicles be banned based on their emission results? This is very unfair on companies who have committed and delivered on clean engines.
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Old 30th May 2016, 13:02   #19
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Default Re: Why engine capacity-based diesel vehicle bans don't make any sense

The type of exhaust treatment matters and is where VW would use up more fuel to clean it as opposed to urea injection systems. It has impact on emissions and fuel efficiency.

Why cant particulate filters be made standard? Are they so costly considering that its what we seem to be more worried about?

NOx and its conversion to ozone is a major irritant and leads to cardiovascular issues.

Europe and US have different priorities. Europe is more focussed on carbon emissions and fuel efficiency while US wants a uniform emission policy and wants to rid of NOx.

Last edited by srishiva : 30th May 2016 at 13:06.
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Old 30th May 2016, 13:09   #20
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Default Re: Why engine capacity-based diesel vehicle bans don't make any sense

Excellent research and analysis TSK. I agree with you almost completely that we are lacking scientific rigor in imposing these policies and any day efficient higher capacity engines are less polluting than most of the inefficient lower capacity engines. And this is without considering that these small inefficient engines in cheap cars oversell the higher capacity luxury cars by a factor of 100x if we emit the Innova - and the older Gen1 Innova engines were no paragons of modernism in anycase.


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Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
[*]Toyota 2.2 D4D engine has much lower emissions than 1.2-1.6L diesels from other manufacturers
The 2.2 D4D mentioned here is the 2AD-FTV which was a very modern engine and cannot be compared to the Gen1 Innova and Fortuner engines. What we got saddled with was the 2KD-FTV which was as agricultural and prehistoric as they come. At least the Gen2 versions of these vehicles the GD family with 2GD-FTV and 1GD-FTV for 2.4 and 2.8 models so we can expect better FE, Power and Emissions.

Just wanted to point out that. Don't disagree that the 1AD and 2AD were very efficient engines but just as Maruti missuses DDiS from the Fiat MJDs to whatever diesel generator sourced engine is there in the Celerio, Toyota also misuses D4D for all their 4 cyl diesels - Corolla 1.4 D4D is a 1ND which was designed in 2000 along with the KDs while the GDs are 2015 designs.


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Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
[*]Suzuki 1.6 diesel is ultra clean. Lowest emissions. Same 1.6 in Fiat cars is 10X![*]Fiat and VW with their 19xx cc engines top the pollution charts
I don't think Suzuki has any 1.6 diesel other than the Fiat MJDs. So find this data point very hard to believe. The same engine cannot vary emissions by 10x. I understand that the Suzuki brand has magical pull on the Indian psyche but this is outright sorcery, if true.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
[*]Audi also has the reason to cry fowl. Their 3L engines which pollute less than 1.5L of some other manufacturers[*]Volkswagen 3L is another very clean engine beating 1.3L engines
Last but not the least, given the boost to the US revenues that VAG has agreed to fund, I would not go with their diesels at face value. Most of the problems have been with EA-188. The 3L engines with really good emissions are the ones equipped with the Urea Injection system. I don't know if the ones sold in India come with this. Do they?
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Old 30th May 2016, 13:15   #21
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Thumbs up Re: Why engine capacity-based diesel vehicle bans don't make any sense

Excellent analysis. Rating a well deserved 5 star. I really wonder if the NGT had done such a data analysis before coming up with this atrocious decision. Such a shame to happen in a so called free country. I think we should spread this thread widely so that someone who has gone for a PIL should benefit from the already done analysis.
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Old 30th May 2016, 13:17   #22
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Default Re: Why engine capacity-based diesel vehicle bans don't make any sense

There is one other thing that the NGT and other agencies have chosen to ignore or just have no data about. There are just as many diesel power backup generators running as many cars, and one wonders how efficient they are given that there is no regulation, nor mandates to check their exhaust. These power generators run for hours on end, and are located in key office and residential areas. As more and more people opt to have A/C at home, and power needs have sky-rocketed, there is no end in sight. My own office in the NCR region runs the generator probably 4 days in a week due to poor power supply in the area. My apartment too runs a diesel generator many times all night to cater to power losses. These power generators are badly maintained, spew thick smoke, and the worst of all are in the exact residential region where people live, sleep and children grow. Perhaps a deeper thought is needed by those in control before knee jerk reactions to ban automobiles. Pollution comes from areas that we have not thought about at all, and one will be surprised to know how much each sector contributes. Sudden bans, will only serve to cripple the nation's progress cause more harm than good.
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Old 30th May 2016, 13:19   #23
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Default Re: Why engine capacity-based diesel vehicle bans don't make any sense

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Originally Posted by Asifgrkhan View Post
. The 3L engines with really good emissions are the ones equipped with the Urea Injection system. I don't know if the ones sold in India come with this. Do they?
Euro 6 is not implemented in India. Even Euro 4 in India is modified which does not require DPF. Therefore, we can only see these numbers to perform analysis. Data for India specific engines will be with ARAI, and Indian agencies are not very gung Ho about data sharing.
If some source in ARAI can give data for Indian Euro 4 vehicles, we can do a data drive analysis. Right now we can only use 2009 Euro 4 data (older tech) and Latest Euro 6 data which is supposed to be implemented in India in 2020. How will they manage that with ULSD is a mystery.
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Old 30th May 2016, 13:28   #24
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Default Re: Why engine capacity-based diesel vehicle bans don't make any sense

I was in discussion about this with a major premium manufacturer who mentioned that the ban was keeping them up at night and that a significant proportion of market share was at risk. Have sent them this link
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Old 30th May 2016, 13:34   #25
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Default Re: Why engine capacity-based diesel vehicle bans don't make any sense

The NGT ban and the Delhi ban are very easy solutions for those imposing bodies. Why not get to the root cause of the issue. You want to curb pollution. And you don't want to let polluting vehicles ply on the roads. Good thinking there.
Let's take this scenario. Why take registration as a one time thing and allow vehicles to ply for 15 years without questioning? So only after some cop asks for the PUC and sees it above the limit would he be pulled away?
We live in a world where the PUC certificates are just handed out like pizza discount coupons. I completely doubt the reliability of these certificates issued by road-side PUC stations. The cars which house this machinery themselves won't pass this test, I can bet.

I feel, registration of your vehicle (any) should be done yearly where the car should undergo emission tests and other road-worthiness tests and then be allowed to ply on road. Those unfit should be impounded immediately or towed to the workshop.
Make this a criminal offence if no action is taken by the owner.

Rather than just taking a decision where the public by large would suffer and the government will have no work to do, it's better that the government/courts take into account the facts and then act. An average citizen is now more informed on such matters than would have been a couple decades ago.

If cars beyond 2000cc capacities pollute the most, what about the public and private transport buses and trucks? So since they carry more number of people/goods for the people, the emissions are thus justified? More often than not, its these trucks and buses that leave a thick black smoke. I don't see a Fortuner or a Mercedes/BMW/Audi leave a thick black smoke as they take off from a signal or while changing gears.

The analysis done by Tanveer here should be considered very seriously. The NGT/courts should be challenged and questioned on the facts that they took this decision.
It's not just a concern to the people who might have already put some hard earned money to buy such cars, but also a concern to an automobile manufacturing industry who might just stop their investments.

Not all companies are Mahindra who would just reduce the bore to make a lesser capacity engine.

Time the government thinks of reforms in this direction.
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Old 30th May 2016, 13:49   #26
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Default Why engine capacity-based diesel vehicle bans don't make any sense

Thanks Tanveer for the excellent analysis and proofs. But the main question is, will this data be acceptable in court ? Say tomorrow the ban comes to Mumbai, can I use this to challenge the ban?

Last edited by blackwasp : 30th May 2016 at 13:53.
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Old 30th May 2016, 13:50   #27
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Default Re: Why engine capacity-based diesel vehicle bans don't make any sense

Fantastic work. I just tweeted the link to PM, Nitin Gaddafi and PO India. https://twitter.com/sheepblackbaba/s...96484408553472
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Old 30th May 2016, 13:57   #28
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Default Re: Why engine capacity-based diesel vehicle bans don't make any sense

To clarify, it is the design of the engine block and the electronics + filters that are of concern. There seems to be some confusion that the 1.99L Mahindra might pollute more than the 2.2L its based off. The figure will almost be the same for them.
The inference is that due to the high variance in the data set, a direct correlation does not exist in disp. v/s pollution levels.
Also, 1.6L in Suzuki pollutes .10 times the 1.6L MJD? How is that possible? It will be extremely surprising if only external filters can cause such a drop?
Also, I did not infer how does the 1.3 MJD perform wrt to the dCi and other counterparts?
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Old 30th May 2016, 13:57   #29
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Default Re: Why engine capacity-based diesel vehicle bans don't make any sense

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Originally Posted by ajmat View Post
I was in discussion about this with a major premium manufacturer who mentioned that the ban was keeping them up at night and that a significant proportion of market share was at risk. Have sent them this link
Imagine the fancy engineers, MBAs and <insert designation / degree here> in all these companies supposedly with global networks, and yet it takes an enthusiast to come up with conclusive data based proof?

*cough* *facepalm*

Good job Tanveer - excellent, though the map labels are really tiny and hard to read.
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Old 30th May 2016, 14:08   #30
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Default Re: Why engine capacity-based diesel vehicle bans don't make any sense

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Originally Posted by Ruchitya View Post
To clarify, it is the design of the engine block and the electronics + filters that are of concern. There seems to be some confusion that the 1.99L Mahindra might pollute more than the 2.2L its based off. The figure will almost be the same for them.
The inference is that due to the high variance in the data set, a direct correlation does not exist in disp. v/s pollution levels.
Also, 1.6L in Suzuki pollutes .10 times the 1.6L MJD? How is that possible? It will be extremely surprising if only external filters can cause such a drop?
Also, I did not infer how does the 1.3 MJD perform wrt to the dCi and other counterparts?
Its not just filters. How you tune the engine also matters. Smaller engines with high power are worst culprits.
So 1.5 dci with 106bhp pollutes more than 1.5dci with 69bhp.

This begs the question, if you remap your car to a higher BHP, how much of an impact it would have on your NOx emissions!!
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