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Old 30th May 2016, 14:19   #31
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Default Re: Why engine capacity-based diesel vehicle bans don't make any sense

On larger engines being more clean, Is it because a larger motor works a lot less compared to the smaller engines, that are tuned to the max, to achieve their claimed performance? On a large engine, all you need to do is feather the throttle to get going. It is rare that you'll ever have to wring it.

I am also curious to know real time pollution levels if you drove right, with the right gear selected versus an engine being lugged. Most of the time I see a vehicle fitted with diesel engine, coughing smoke, is when they are lugged. I am sure this can't be good for the DPF. Does the DPF ever get changed by diesel car owners or alteast under the cars maintenance program?

Fiat surely aren't selling any cars but its their engines that are in 90% of the diesel cars on the road. This can't be good.

On the petrol versus diesel fuel economy chart, what do the numbers on the vertical axis mean?

Tableau would be a better application to plot fancy charts.

Last edited by sandeepmohan : 30th May 2016 at 14:23.
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Old 30th May 2016, 14:26   #32
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Default Re: Why engine capacity-based diesel vehicle bans don't make any sense

Tanveer, Excellent analysis.

Hope NGT's activism decisions are overseen by some other agency/panel so there is a scientific method to control what is to be controlled rather than arbitrary ruling.

Many thanks again!
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Old 30th May 2016, 14:36   #33
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Default Re: Why engine capacity-based diesel vehicle bans don't make any sense

If the ARAI is so tight lipped about the data and not so willing to share it, can the RTI act not be used here? I am not completely aware of whether ARAI would fall under the RTI though.
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Old 30th May 2016, 14:38   #34
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Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
Its not just filters. How you tune the engine also matters. Smaller engines with high power are worst culprits.
This begs the question, if you remap your car to a higher BHP, how much of an impact it would have on your NOx emissions!!
Apologies, I did not compare the outputs figures for Suzuki vehicles vs Fiats. There are 2 versions of the 1.6mjd, 105bhp and 120bhp. I don't think too many tuners would think of NOx emissions while at it! But unless the PUC tests are stringent, there's not much to be done about it.
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Old 30th May 2016, 14:39   #35
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Default Re: Why engine capacity-based diesel vehicle bans don't make any sense

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Originally Posted by sandeepmohan View Post

On the petrol versus diesel fuel economy chart, what do the numbers on the vertical axis mean?

Tableau would be a better application to plot fancy charts.
That is fuel consumption/100km.
So 10kmph would mean 10L/100km
I have to research Tableau. Right now just used excel after some research.

Regrding lugging etc., these numbers are generated using test cycles of the certifying authority. This is where the controversy arose. There were specific software codes which determined if the vehicle was on a tester, and if so, they reduced the emissions.

Lets see if these agencies change their strategies.

That said, we need some ARAI data to make an informed decision for India. I am sure, the govt must be testing emission levels of new cars and keeping the data on record.
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Old 30th May 2016, 14:55   #36
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Default Re: Why engine capacity-based diesel vehicle bans don't make any sense

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Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
That is fuel consumption/100km.So 10kmph would mean 10L/100km. I have to research Tableau. Right now just used excel after some research.
You mean 10Kmpl?

Tableau is possibly the best data visualization tool available. I don't directly use it but am exposed to the data generated by it on a day to day basis. The data points are not lifted off excel data, though, I am sure it can talk to CSV's. At the company where I work, we use it to talk to our Oracle and Vertica DB's.
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Old 30th May 2016, 15:06   #37
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Default Re: Why engine capacity-based diesel vehicle bans don't make any sense

Living in the UK, I am zapped at the decision taken by NGT. These days with so much data available, they should have taken decision on emissions and fitness alone. Three points I would like to emphasise:

1. Establish country wide vehicle fitness centres which come under preview of private audit agencies. This should be very strictly controlled so that fitness centres do not indulge in malpractices. This will guarantee that the emissions and fitness certificates are authentic.

2. As GTO, has rightly pointed, the cars here are taxed annually , based on their emissions. We should be doing the same in India.

3. Have annual fitness test carried out for all vehicles irrespective of their class. In UK this fitness test is called MOT and is required annually. The only exception are new cars which are not required to have MOT for the first three years.

Enforcement is key and here in UK this is enforced by DVLA.

Lastly my Merc 1.8d has annual road tax of 30, Zafira with a 1.7d, the tax is 130 and my previous Ford Mondeo 1.8P was 245!!

My two cents.

Last edited by shibu : 30th May 2016 at 15:10. Reason: Additional line.
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Old 30th May 2016, 15:06   #38
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Default Re: Why engine capacity-based diesel vehicle bans don't make any sense

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Originally Posted by Nilesh5417 View Post
I was kinda ok with NGT since it was at least a body serious about doing something but i always hoped they went more transparent with the basis for their decision making. Most of the times their decisions bordered on plain activism than any logical solution to the issues.
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Originally Posted by RavenAvi View Post
About time the NGT and it's associates see this thread and learn something, before issuing blind-bans on engine sizes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sourav9385 View Post
THIS is how we arrive at a useful conclusion, people! Actionable insights, that's the need of the hour. Thank you tsk for giving people exactly what is needed to derive useful conclusions from historical & current data.
So, I guess it's safe to say that the NGT & all other pollution controlling bodies in India don't really know how to do their jobs?
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Originally Posted by hillsnrains View Post
Now I have only wish, our NGT(National Green Tribunal) team read through this thread
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Originally Posted by abhishek46 View Post
i regularly see other diesel cars of modern era like i20, duster, etc smoking during acceleration.The smoke is always black and sooty.
As Malcolm Gladwell noted in his essay "Million Dollar Murray" (a recommended read): Governments, no less than the people they represent, have very often exhibited the tendency to try and manage problems - even if at exorbitant cost - rather than to solve them... His analysis, which includes a look into vehicular pollution, could probably be summed up by saying that often in lieu of serious study and analysis of hard data, there's typically a lot of psychology involved... and thus that the chosen method of dealing with whichever issue often turns out to be both the most costly and the least effective. Lest anyone think this could be unique to the Indian situation, his examples were all drawn from America.

Many cities worldwide would in this reflect the one Gladwell exemplified, Denver, where it was found that a mere 5% of vehicles were producing 55% of the pollution - "gross Polluters" I've heard them called. Yet the method of "management" for the problem there wasn't improving matters at all, and obviously more effective alternatives were not really being looked at. He probably wrote this ten years ago, and yet not much has changed wherever you look.

But here in our thread, it seems THE PEOPLE have clearly spoken, and it really would be wonderful if the powers-that-be were listening - if not to Tbhpians (the former may think of themselves a bit loftily for that), then at least to the data itself. Shibu's suggestions below would seem an excellent starting point.

I've had a hard time believing that people as eminent as those comprising the NGT's court could have been ignoring existing hard data till now... but having observed the honorable Court's actions/decisions up here in Manali over the past year or two, I've started to wonder whether (or hope that?) they were just in a phase where they were wanting to assert their authority, and show that they had the power to do whatever needed to be done - whether they quite knew quite what needed to be done, or had the required data in hand, OR NOT. Hence the ability to seemingly arbitrarily change the rules up here every couple months or so, even when the changes seemed highly counter-intuitive and appeared to move unpredictably either forward or backwards ("the wind blows where it will, and no-one knows from whence it comes").

In one way, it's true that until ground-level implementation people like CM's and SDM's are threatened with imprisonment, and self-serving local commercial (in this case tourism) operators are shown that they really can be decisively shut down, little positive in terms of environmental protection is likely to happen - anywhere.

So... Now that we can (hopefully) all bow and acknowledge that this body is powerful and able to helpfully cut through all the typical corruption and probably even enforce laws whether we like them or not, YES, can we PLEASE start seeing some data-based actions that make good sense scientifically / sociologically and will actually produce the desired results (and we do mean measurably)? Some transparency would also be helpful - though I know that can be a lot to ask from anyone in power...

Many thanks to TSK for initiating this conversation.

-Eric

Last edited by ringoism : 30th May 2016 at 15:27.
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Old 30th May 2016, 15:27   #39
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Default Re: Why engine capacity-based diesel vehicle bans don't make any sense

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
[*]Among Euro 4 new cars, many small engines emit more NOx and PM as compared to larger engines.[*]The worst culprits are powerful versions of smaller engines. Eg 106bhp/110 versions of 1.5 dci[*]Particulate emissions for new Euro 4 vehicles were very small even for larger engines. Considering that most vehicles currently running in our cities are Euro 4 or Euro 2, new Euro 4 PM contribution is negligible[*]With DPF fitted, even Euro 4 PM emissions go down significantly. However that requires ULSD which is not available in India[*]Euro 4 engines in list are mostly gone from India. We use Euro 6 engines without DPF or Urea exhaust scrubbing(Bluetec).[/list][b][u]


And the irony is, you can easily run your ill maintained 8 year old Euro 2 vehicle, but not buy an ultra clean Euro 4 compliant luxury SUV capable of Euro 6 with just a DPF.
Nice topic for discussion and must appreciate you for coming with a thorough analysis.

I was not able to get the data set which is proving the point of "The worst culprits are powerful versions of smaller engines. Eg 106bhp/110 versions of 1.5 dci"

I tried another data source http://www.nextgreencar.com/emission...n-cars/diesel/ and below are the observation.

Rather K9K in its 90HP ECO Tune is one of the cleanest car as per NGC Rating..
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Old 30th May 2016, 15:38   #40
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Default Re: Why engine capacity-based diesel vehicle bans don't make any sense

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Originally Posted by soumobakshi View Post
Nice topic for discussion and must appreciate you for coming with a thorough analysis.

I was not able to get the data set which is proving the point of "The worst culprits are powerful versions of smaller engines. Eg 106bhp/110 versions of 1.5 dci"

I tried another data source http://www.nextgreencar.com/emission...n-cars/diesel/ and below are the observation.

Rather K9K in its 90HP ECO Tune is one of the cleanest car as per NGC Rating..
You are looking at CO2 numbers look at the NOx numbers. CO2 numbers are proportional to engine size.
NOx, not so.
Check out the May 2008 data and see how the 1.5 DCI with 106bhp engine fares, esp when compared to the 70bhp version
Part_A_Euro_IV_may2008.zip

You can download data for any year here
http://carfueldata.dft.gov.uk/downloads/default.aspx

The reason primary post looks at NOx and PM numbers because the bans in India have been done citing these. NOx + HC = Smog. PM = Particulates(PM10,PM2.5)
If CO2 was the primary reason for ban, petrol cars should have been the target, because for same engine capacity, petrol engines emit more CO2

Last edited by tsk1979 : 30th May 2016 at 15:40.
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Old 30th May 2016, 16:03   #41
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Default Re: Why engine capacity-based diesel vehicle bans don't make any sense

Interesting Indeed Tanveer;

I did a sample data of 2 versions of the same 1.5dci from Dacia Duster and Renault Clio with Toyota Land Cruiser and Mercendes Benz C Class as the other 2 vehicles (All Vehicles are in 2016, EURO 6 Compliant modes)


Indeed, Car Manufacturer's go by the norms enforced upon them
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Old 30th May 2016, 16:45   #42
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Default Re: Why engine capacity-based diesel vehicle bans don't make any sense

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Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
Euro 6 is not implemented in India. Even Euro 4 in India is modified which does not require DPF. Therefore, we can only see these numbers to perform analysis. Data for India specific engines will be with ARAI, and Indian agencies are not very gung Ho about data sharing.
If some source in ARAI can give data for Indian Euro 4 vehicles, we can do a data drive analysis. Right now we can only use 2009 Euro 4 data (older tech) and Latest Euro 6 data which is supposed to be implemented in India in 2020. How will they manage that with ULSD is a mystery.
Thanks for the information.

Any idea why the Suzuki and Fiat numbers are reporting wildly different emissions for what is basically the same engine?
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Old 30th May 2016, 16:51   #43
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Thanks for the information.

Any idea why the Suzuki and Fiat numbers are reporting wildly different emissions for what is basically the same engine?
NOx+HC emissions are not only dependent on the engine block, but also the software MAP which resides in the ECU. For example, you can have a very aggressive MAP tuned for racing which pulls in as much fuel as possible. This is going to give you black smoke, and unburnt HC.

A super lean burn map will reduce CO and CO2 but will require catalytic converters to control NOx.

So engine block is just part of the story. Software MAP regulates the emissions, and post emission tech (eg DPFs) control emission already generated.
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Old 30th May 2016, 17:02   #44
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Default Re: Why engine capacity-based diesel vehicle bans don't make any sense

Very interesting indeed. Although, everyone sort of knew that the 2 litre mark was set without any real analysis and justification, it is good to finally be able to say that conclusively.

Having said that, does bio-fuel, such as ethanol blended petrol reduce emissions? It is also claimed that it reduces fuel efficiency marginally. Is there any data to substantiate this?

Last edited by NiXTriX2004 : 30th May 2016 at 17:03.
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Old 30th May 2016, 17:14   #45
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Default Re: Why engine capacity-based diesel vehicle bans don't make any sense

Maybe the Government tries to use its various arms in a diplomatic and politically correct way to address unrelated issues. The NGT's aim may not just be pollution-control in this regard; perhaps the Government's intention is to reduce the number of fuel-guzzlers in a net oil-importing country like India. India's biggest expenditure is oil import, isn't it? Just a random thought in my mind! But I may not be correct.
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