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Old 30th May 2016, 22:01   #61
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Default Re: Why engine capacity-based diesel vehicle bans don't make any sense

Pretty surprising to see why all this hunt behind diesel cars! Petrol cars do emit a good amount of CO2 which is a major greenhouse gas still no such rules or even discussion is being done on petrol cars!
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Old 30th May 2016, 22:02   #62
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Default Re: Why engine capacity-based diesel vehicle bans don't make any sense

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A blanket ban on all diesel vehicles inside select cities can still be justified with hard data, but the 2000cc... that is just voodoo territory
I agree these decisions are just knee jerk reactions to the problems facing the NCR by those who don't understand much about the causes of automobile air pollution. I have seen those horrendous diesel rickshaws with 350-500 cc (not sure of the engine capacity) Greaves Garuda engines and other public transport vehicles spewing black exhaust in Pune. While most privately owned diesel vehicles hardly emit any smoke.

The reasons people buy diesels are because it is cheaper to purchase and the vehicles are more fuel efficient in terms of km/liter.

Many people I know idle their cars for 30 minutes or more with the AC on whilst parked at the kerbside only because diesel is cheaper. They would not be so liberal with a petrol engine. When asked to switch off their engines and save fuel they give me a strange look

Want to reduce PM pollution? Get diesel prices on par with petrol. That should act as a wet blanket for much of the enthusiasm for diesel in this country.

That said, I don't understand what the heck the likes of MB, Toyota and others are squealing about? Either plonk in a smaller diesel engine <2L or give customers a nice beefy petrol. Let the customers in the NCR make a choice.
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Old 30th May 2016, 22:28   #63
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Default Re: Why engine capacity-based diesel vehicle bans don't make any sense

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Originally Posted by R2D2 View Post

That said, I don't understand what the heck the likes of MB, Toyota and others are squealing about? Either plonk in a smaller diesel engine <2L or give customers a nice beefy petrol. Let the customers in the NCR make a choice.
They are squealing about the fact that they made certain investments in the country according to local laws. Suddenly that local law does not matter.

Imagine if you build a house by corporation by laws. When your house is complete and just painting remains, corporation tells you bylaws changed today, you cannot reside in your house, demolish it. Will you squeal, or just say. Well no problem, I will demolish my house and build a new one. Whats the big deal?
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Old 30th May 2016, 22:57   #64
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Default Re: Why engine capacity-based diesel vehicle bans don't make any sense

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Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
They are squealing about the fact that they made certain investments in the country according to local laws. Suddenly that local law does not matter.

Imagine if you build a house by corporation by laws. When your house is complete and just painting remains, corporation tells you bylaws changed today, you cannot reside in your house, demolish it. Will you squeal, or just say. Well no problem, I will demolish my house and build a new one. Whats the big deal?
I can well understand the discomfort at having to abide by a new set of "rules" that have been prescribed in a rather sudden manner and without having given them sufficient notice.

I'd rather have seen this very arbitrary rule come into effect after 6-12 months giving car manufacturers a chance to take whatever steps they deem necessary to protect their business interests. But then Indian babudom and even the judiciary are not always known for scientific and time based introduction of rules/regulation. Look what happened with the NEET mess up.

As of now manufacturers still have the rest of the country to sell their cars in. But after reading this I am not sure:

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/...w/52496393.cms

This will definitely have a impact on manufacturers as much of their production is heavily slanted towards diesel engines. It will also severely impact their confidence in this country.

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Originally Posted by nthakral View Post
Pretty surprising to see why all this hunt behind diesel cars! Petrol cars do emit a good amount of CO2 which is a major greenhouse gas still no such rules or even discussion is being done on petrol cars!
The ban revolves not around CO2 but emissions of particulate matter, especially PM 2.5 which can cause cancer, heart disease among other problems.

Take a look: http://www.health.ny.gov/environment.../air/pmq_a.htm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Particulates
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Old 30th May 2016, 23:28   #65
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Default Re: Why engine capacity-based diesel vehicle bans don't make any sense

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Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
We have looked at NOx+HC, PM, CO, CO2 and fuel consumption, and the only place where CC matters is CO2 and Fuel consumption. In both these areas, petrol engines fare worse than diesel vehicles.

Lets hope, future decisions made also look at data rather than whims and fancies.
What a fantastic study and observation has been made. Seriously, NGT and the Government should engage you as an advisor so that there is sufficient material before them to arrive at a decision.

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Originally Posted by autobahnjpr View Post
But, there is more bad news in the offing.

NGT’s diesel vehicle ban may extend to more cities like Kolkata, Mumbai, Bengaluru.
Your concern is in right direction. Such a move has caused great uncertainty amongst the buyers and the car makers. Who knows that one day only CNG or electrical vehicles are allowed to ply. what will happen to the massive investment made by the people and the car makers?

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Originally Posted by kirans View Post
There is one other thing that the NGT and other agencies have chosen to ignore or just have no data about. There are just as many diesel power backup generators running as many cars, and one wonders how efficient they are given that there is no regulation, nor mandates to check their exhaust. These power generators run for hours on end, and are located in key office and residential areas.

Sudden bans, will only serve to cripple the nation's progress cause more harm than good.
I agree.
Cars are always in the first line of firing. Thousands of Dhabas on government land, pavements are making great money but a car, even after paying the Road Tax is towed away and is made to pay the fine. similarly Gen sets and many other sources of pollution are running, leaving the diesel cars to face the music.



Quote:
Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
They are squealing about the fact that they made certain investments in the country according to local laws. Suddenly that local law does not matter.

Imagine if you build a house by corporation by laws. When your house is complete and just painting remains, corporation tells you bylaws changed today, you cannot reside in your house, demolish it. Will you squeal, or just say. Well no problem, I will demolish my house and build a new one. Whats the big deal?
Euro 4 or Euro 6 norms will become meaningless if many authorities start coming up with new set of yardstick so often. Government and the Opposition should think in terms of placing the Emission Norms Laws in 9th Schedule of the Constitution so that a well thought legislation defines the emission norms. The Laws put in the 9th Schedule are away from judicial scrutiny.
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Old 31st May 2016, 00:51   #66
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Default Re: Why engine capacity-based diesel vehicle bans don't make any sense

I dont understand the logic behind the ban, according to me, the Micro diesels needs to be banned first. I am sure Diesel hatchbacks and sedans outnumber SUV at least 1:4 or more in cities. With the sheer numbers, it makes sense to ban small diesels and hike the tax large private diesels. Subsequently, the Govt. could think of cutting tax/excise duty etc on efficient and cleaner petrol. While commercial vehicles should remain untouched irrespective of their capacities. Wont that make more sense ? Or am I not thinking right ?
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Old 31st May 2016, 01:18   #67
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Default Re: Why engine capacity-based diesel vehicle bans don't make any sense

Here is latest in TOI on big diesel vehicles:

Quote:
In its application filed on Monday, the Centre claimed such an order could impact 'Make in India', cause substantial losses and affect FDIs. The ministry also stated that the Centre has decided to become a party in the M C Mehta vs Union of India case being heard in the Supreme Court, which had led to the court ordering a ban on registration of diesel cars with more than 2,000cc engines in Delhi. The Justice Swatanter Kumar-headed NGT bench said the ministry's application will be heard on Tuesday.
details are on following link:-
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/i...w/52511552.cms

Last edited by .anshuman : 31st May 2016 at 08:14. Reason: Quotes added. Thanks
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Old 31st May 2016, 08:06   #68
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Default Re: Why engine capacity-based diesel vehicle bans don't make any sense

A logic that could work in favour of engines >2000cc ban, these engines burn more fuel for the same distance, i.e. they consume more fuel, everyone knows bigger engines gives bad fuel mileages. Now Fossil fuels are not a renewable source of energy, we need to conserve them as long as we can. Moreover India is not a "performance" driven market, vehicles are used for commuting, ferrying people. So IMO this ban affects only the rich class who desire luxury, performance. I for one simply have no problem with such a ban.
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Old 31st May 2016, 09:07   #69
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Default Re: Why engine capacity-based diesel vehicle bans don't make any sense

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Originally Posted by AWD View Post
A logic that could work in favour of engines >2000cc ban, these engines burn more fuel for the same distance, i.e. they consume more fuel, everyone knows bigger engines gives bad fuel mileages. Now Fossil fuels are not a renewable source of energy, we need to conserve them as long as we can. Moreover India is not a "performance" driven market, vehicles are used for commuting, ferrying people. So IMO this ban affects only the rich class who desire luxury, performance. I for one simply have no problem with such a ban.
I beg your pardon but I don`t agree with this logic. If you go with this then you will have to ban petrol cars as well as we all know how bad they are with regard to fuel efficiency.

Talking about the class of people, ban affects all the commercial vehicles as well, be it pickup, goods carrier and small, medium and heavy commercial vehicles. So targeting just one class of people or "performance" driven cars will be illogical here.
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Old 31st May 2016, 09:35   #70
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Default Re: Why engine capacity-based diesel vehicle bans don't make any sense

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Originally Posted by AWD View Post
Now Fossil fuels are not a renewable source of energy, we need to conserve them as long as we can.
Agree. That is why, Government has mandated fuel efficiency norms which will be in place from next year. Change is necessary, improvements are needed, but if they are done in haste and without giving sufficient time to affected parties, it is not a good situation.

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...ml#post3706603 (Fuel efficiency norm for cars ready. EDIT : Coming our way in 2011)

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Originally Posted by volkman10 View Post
A slew of announcements on Safety, Recalls, Scrapping of old cars and now mileage!

Government fixes new car mileage at 18.2 km/litre April 2017.

That means, an auto maker can still sell cars that deliver less than 18.2 km. But it needs to make sure that it also sells vehicles that offer higher mileage so that the average of all models meets the rule.

From April 2022, the average will be lifted to 22 kmpl. Separate standards are likely to be announced for trucks and buses.
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Old 31st May 2016, 10:06   #71
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Default Re: Why engine capacity-based diesel vehicle bans don't make any sense

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Originally Posted by DragonHawk View Post
If you go with this then you will have to ban petrol cars as well as we all know how bad they are with regard to fuel efficiency.

Talking about the class of people, ban affects all the commercial vehicles
Logic behind specifically targeting diesel cars is to preserve diesel for transport, farm, industry only. Also so that pricing for diesel can be subsidised for these sectors. A 10L+ personal car or a 50L or a 1cr luxury car buyers doesn't need to be given subsidy at the cost of a common man.

This shall give industry a push to develop smaller capacity more efficient vehicles both from emissions & mileages point of view.

Im not sure whether the ban affects commercial vehicles also, so can't comment on that part.
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Old 31st May 2016, 10:12   #72
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Default Re: Why engine capacity-based diesel vehicle bans don't make any sense

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Over the last few months, we have seen a rash of activism from NGT to try and control vehicular emissions. Numerous orders have been passed, and two of them concern Automobiles[list=1][*]

And the irony is, you can easily run your ill maintained 8 year old Euro 2 vehicle, but not buy an ultra clean Euro 4 compliant luxury SUV capable of Euro 6 with just a DPF.
Superb analysis and loads of information there.
I wish the NGT and such likes look at analysis and research like the one you have done, rather than just coming up with some arbitrary figure of 2000 cc and banning things!.
Obviously, their decision making is flawed and not thought through well enough. As with most things in India, headlines grabbing decisions and knee-jerk reactions by judicial activists and babus are the norm, than scientific and rational decision making.
I do not see how banning 2000 cc and above new diesel vehicles makes sense when all those ancient KeSRTC buses and 30 year old trucks and mini-lorrys are still allowed ply our roads. God save the person who drives behind them, when they accelerate and spew out toxic ominous looking dark smoke from their exhausts.
Hope this rule gets challenged and better sense will prevail.
Cheerio!.
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Old 31st May 2016, 11:09   #73
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Default Re: Why engine capacity-based diesel vehicle bans don't make any sense

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Originally Posted by AWD View Post
A logic that could work in favour of engines >2000cc ban, these engines burn more fuel for the same distance, i.e. they consume more fuel, everyone knows bigger engines gives bad fuel mileages. Now Fossil fuels are not a renewable source of energy, we need to conserve them as long as we can. Moreover India is not a "performance" driven market, vehicles are used for commuting, ferrying people. So IMO this ban affects only the rich class who desire luxury, performance. I for one simply have no problem with such a ban.
The Car manufacturers, Pollution Board and regulatory bodies must be having the following information:-
  1. Status of fuel consumption, in terms of mileage per liter.
  2. Status of emission/pollution in terms of each specific vehicle.
  3. Expected status of performance in terms of emission/pollution with passage of time for next 15 years.
  4. What are the other sources of pollution (like Gen sets, combustion oriented industries, garbage burning etc,) and what is the exact contribution of these sources in causing degradation of the environment.

With these basic figures the Government/NGT should be able to work out:-


A. Actual culprits for spoiling environment.
B. What should be the 20 year policy for owning the cars.
C. should the car manufacturers and car buyers be ready to for a new car every 10 or 5 years.
D. Will Government compensate the car manufacturers and buyers for sudden change in policy.


If the Government and NGT are not having the vital information, they should collect these figures to arrive at a workable solution.


These figures should be in public domain through the web sites of the Government and car manufacturers.
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Old 31st May 2016, 11:11   #74
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Default Re: Why engine capacity-based diesel vehicle bans don't make any sense

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[*]
Audi also has the reason to cry fowl. Their 3L engines which pollute less than 1.5L of some other manufacturers[*]Volkswagen 3L is another very clean engine beating 1.3L engines.
Just asking..

Are these results somehow compromised by the "diesel dupe" technology.
If remember correctly VW admitted that they had their cars programmed so they showed emission levels nearly 40 times lesser in some cases in test conditions.
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Old 31st May 2016, 11:19   #75
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Default Re: Why engine capacity-based diesel vehicle bans don't make any sense

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Just asking..

Are these results somehow compromised by the "diesel dupe" technology.
If remember correctly VW admitted that they had their cars programmed so they showed emission levels nearly 40 times lesser in some cases in test conditions.
Yes, but it will reduce emissions of all smaller engines too. That said, diesel dupe tech is more relevant to USA emissions as NOx limits there are so low that without very advanced tech its impossible to meet them. Even with Urea injection, many cars cannot meet.

I Europe, what has come under criticism more is the CO2 level gaming, which results in lower taxes in countries like the UK. That is done for petrol engines also.
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