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Old 31st May 2016, 11:33   #76
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Default Re: Why engine capacity-based diesel vehicle bans don't make any sense

While your data is presented really well and puts all arguments to rest, all I can think about is how the NGT probably consists of people who have the ever so common mentality of "If I cannot own one, so can't you" that seems to be so prevalent in our society. Attacking companies that fare well globally seems to be taken very lightly in India. Its the horrible mentality of how messing with a rich company, even if they are in the right is completely alright, while messing with smaller industries which violate every single norm is always about hurting the employment of the needy and cannot or will not be done.

Last edited by Rehaan : 2nd June 2016 at 14:22. Reason: Small edit made. Lets focus on the issue, and not the people. Thanks :)
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Old 31st May 2016, 11:38   #77
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Default Re: Why engine capacity-based diesel vehicle bans don't make any sense

TSK, you have done a splendid analysis.
Now all that needs to be done is to attack the basic premise of Supreme courts judgement, which I have highlighted here: http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...ml#post3985723 (NGT bans 10+ year old diesel vehicles in Kerala. EDIT: High Court stays ban)

and let me repeat the relevant section:

... It is noteworthy that diesel vehicles of 2000 cc and above and SUVs are
generally used by more affluent sections of our society and
because of the higher engine capacity are more prone to cause
higher levels of pollution
.
A ban on registration of such
vehicles will not therefore affect the common man or the
average citizen
in the city of Delhi. We accordingly direct
that Registration of SUVs and private cars of the capacity of
2000 CC and above using diesel as fuel shall stand banned in
the NCR upto 31st March, 2016.

So the understanding upon which the Supreme court acted was:
1) >2000 cc vehicles are not purchased by "common man" and banning them will not affect the masses
2) Diesel vehicles pollute more
3) Larger cc = larger pollution

(2) & (3) were disputable to begin with, and in this thread you have proved that it is actually wrong.
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Old 31st May 2016, 11:45   #78
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Default Re: Why engine capacity-based diesel vehicle bans don't make any sense

Dear TSK,

This is real legwork which NGT failed to do. Just emotional, illogical and arbitrary is how most of our country's decisions are made. This is the correct approach and should be submitted to the court as expert opinion.

Kudos to you!

Thanks
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Old 31st May 2016, 11:58   #79
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Default Re: Why engine capacity-based diesel vehicle bans don't make any sense

tsk1979, Fantastic analysis here which shows how the ban is just randomly done to show that the NGT is doing something.

Overall this shows how we are a country of bans - ban Alcohol, ban Porn, ban automative window films, ban large Diesel vehicles, etc. Banning anything is the easy and the quick way without needing to implement difficult and thought through long term solutions.
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Old 31st May 2016, 12:17   #80
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Default Re: Why engine capacity-based diesel vehicle bans don't make any sense

Tsk, Fantastic article. One of the top threads in T-BHP!

Now, I suppose Hon. courts are to take any action only on solid evidences, and innocents must not be punished, from what I understand of the Indian laws. It seems like all of these are thrown to the wind, and decisions are being made simply on someone's thoughts, and not hard evidences.

I also thought that the auto majors will have even more solid data points to prove these, and it should have been pretty easy for them to challenge such arbitrary bans?

Or some other agendas at work, just to focus on one specific class of vehicles and specific group of people?

Some thoughts -
If a family has more than 4-5 people, or when people travel as groups, they now need to have two smaller cars. So, we will have more traffic on the road, and more pollution! It doesn't require a space scientist to figure this out. So, it seems like pollution is not the criteria for bans here. As alpha1 indicated, its the 'common man' v/s SUVs at play!
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Old 31st May 2016, 12:24   #81
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Default Re: Why engine capacity-based diesel vehicle bans don't make any sense

http://www.autocarindia.com/auto-new...form=hootsuite

Ban spreading to other cities.
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Old 31st May 2016, 12:47   #82
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Default Re: Why engine capacity-based diesel vehicle bans don't make any sense

Why are the vehicles seen as the main source of pollution?

More than 60% of the electricity India uses comes from Coal.. converting a good amount of them to be based on renewable energy would reduce pollution by far comparing banning Diesel vehicles in few cities.
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Old 31st May 2016, 13:18   #83
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Default Re: Why engine capacity-based diesel vehicle bans don't make any sense

Diesel used by Gensets
Diesel used by Locomotives
Diesel used by farm utilities
Diesel used by Pump Sets/Pumping Stations
Diesel used by Ships/Sea faring vessels
Diesel used by Public Transportation Utilities

No sir, all the above are above board, only diesel cars are to blame.

It is nothing but neighbours jealousy couched as Green Activism. And what is laughable is 2000cc engine guidelines.

Last edited by Rehaan : 2nd June 2016 at 14:18. Reason: Removing the last line. Let's not get personal. Thanks :)
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Old 31st May 2016, 14:49   #84
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Default Re: Why engine capacity-based diesel vehicle bans don't make any sense

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post

And the irony is, you can easily run your ill maintained 8 year old Euro 2 vehicle, but not buy an ultra clean Euro 4 compliant luxury SUV capable of Euro 6 with just a DPF.
Thanks for the post, I hope somebody from NGT reads it.

Only one addition,
I'm an after treatment person.

Euro 4 to Euro 5 needs PM treatment so DPF is good.
Euro 5 to 6 needs both NOx and PM treatment, so DPF +SCR/SCR-DPF/LNT+DPF.
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Old 31st May 2016, 15:08   #85
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Default Re: Why engine capacity-based diesel vehicle bans don't make any sense

TSK - Take a bow !! Respect !!
All reporters in the country shall be trained by you in order to have methodical, hollistic approach before presenting any news on TV or trying to sway people's mind for any particular issue shown in the country.

A very fantastic, detailed post. Gives immense pleasure while reading the post.

This marks difference between TEAM BHP Forum and all other auto related website. Knowledge and enlightenment gather on our forum is no match.

I hope someone from NGT board members is also member on Team BHP, and they have followed it. Once again Kudos to your post. Thanks a lot for all efforts. Appreciate it.
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Old 31st May 2016, 15:21   #86
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Default Re: Why engine capacity-based diesel vehicle bans don't make any sense

While banning purchase of new larger cubic capacity vehicles at least does not immediately hit the common man, banning the use of existing diesels (for instance in Kerala) is quite a rash decision. What happens to all the middle class families who purchased a diesel (the 1.3 MJD is the most common - Swift, Tata all have them) in the recent years. They cannot suddenly get rid of their cars. Even a 6 lakh investment is a large investment which one cannot write off just like that. Such bans need to be done on a longer term, and I believe older petrols are just as culpable as old diesels. A 15 year old ill-maintained petrol is as harmful as can be a diesel of the same age. We have no checks on the thousands of railway engines - they all burn diesel, private power generators etc. Its unimaginable how a sudden sweeping ban can even be thought of in our country. The NGT were probably hiding away in the jungles for all these years when the vehicles multiplied by the thousands. Crippling the common man at this time will only serve to cause mass displeasure, and huge losses to the common man, more than he can bear. Take away my car today and I have no way of getting around in Bengaluru with the impossible infrastructure and the cheating autos. In Bengaluru, just banning Autorickshaws was impossible and they are the highest polluters both in terms of smoke and noise. They have tampered silencers, they use adulterated fuel, and are notorious in terms of flouting the law. They will of course be let scot free, while the common man, who in desperation put all his savings into a small diesel, in the hopes of cheap reliable transportation to eke out his living will be put to task!
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Old 31st May 2016, 15:35   #87
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Default Re: Why engine capacity-based diesel vehicle bans don't make any sense

That was certainly some deep analysis with some heaps of effort and analysis there! Loved seeing the scatter plots with emissions v/s engine sizes.

But correct me if i'm wrong, this analysis has one assumption underlying - fuel quality. I guess i'm safe to assume that fuel quality over different distributors in the UK/Europe are more or less consistent which is certainly not the case in India (I don't have any specific evidence to support this).

Any thoughts on this?
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Old 31st May 2016, 16:26   #88
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Default Re: Why engine capacity-based diesel vehicle bans don't make any sense

Quote:
Originally Posted by vigvr View Post
That was certainly some deep analysis with some heaps of effort and analysis there! Loved seeing the scatter plots with emissions v/s engine sizes.

But correct me if i'm wrong, this analysis has one assumption underlying - fuel quality. I guess i'm safe to assume that fuel quality over different distributors in the UK/Europe are more or less consistent which is certainly not the case in India (I don't have any specific evidence to support this).

Any thoughts on this?
Yes. You are right.
Also note, even if fuel was totally non adulterated in India, Euro IV will not work. That is why in India we actually have Bharat Stage IV.

Bharat Stage six (2020 target) can happen only if ULSD is available. Time and again refineries have said they cannot supply ULSD.

All newer emission norms cannot be followed even by "totally clean" Indian fuel
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Old 1st June 2016, 03:14   #89
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Default

Finally some sense has dawned in the NGT panel. Fingers crossed for the main hearing on the 11th July.

Quote:
The National Green Tribunal today said that there was no plan to extend the ban on diesel vehicles prevailing in the national capital and Kerala to other cities across the country.

The clarification came from the green panel which said that as of now it was not planning to extend such ban and it would first examine the data received from different states on pollution levels in various cities.
The tribunal also directed all the concerned secretaries of all states to submit an affidavit within three weeks stating two most polluted cities within their territory, total population and vehicle density in each district.

Quote:
"We are not banning any vehicles. We have asked state governments to submit a report on the pollution levels in various cities. Let that data come and then we will hear different parties and decide accordingly," a bench headed by Chairperson Justice Swatanter Kumar said.
[QUOTE ]Senior advocate A M Singhvi, appearing for Society of Indian Automobile Manufactures, opposed the idea of extending diesel ban to other metros and said diesel was not the only source of pollution. "Sources of pollution are other than diesel vehicles as well. Other sources like dust and burning also contribute to the air pollution," Singhvi said.[/quote]

The tribunal had also rapped Central Pollution Control Board for submitting "half-baked" data on the population and vehicle density in major cities across the country. The CPCB report had indicated that ambient air quality in most of the cities was beyond permissible standards.

SOURCE: http://m.economictimes.com/articlesh...campaign=cppst
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Old 1st June 2016, 08:48   #90
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Default Re: Why engine capacity-based diesel vehicle bans don't make any sense

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
Yes. You are right.
Also note, even if fuel was totally non adulterated in India, Euro IV will not work. That is why in India we actually have Bharat Stage IV.

Bharat Stage six (2020 target) can happen only if ULSD is available. Time and again refineries have said they cannot supply ULSD.

All newer emission norms cannot be followed even by "totally clean" Indian fuel
I don't agree with this. BS IV fuel can meet Euro IV tests if unadulterated. Similarly BS VI fuel can meet Euro VI norms.
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