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Old 1st June 2016, 11:39   #91
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Default Re: Why engine capacity-based diesel vehicle bans don't make any sense

What about Public Transport ? They BMTC/KSRTC buses here are more than 2000cc and without any test can confirm are far more polluting. I know its a public transport and carries a lot more people and is a lifeline to majority who cannot afford a car.But should not pollution be everyone's responsibility??
I might be sounding a bit harsh, but if Government expects wealthy to move from BMW to Maruti, nothing wrong in expecting bus commuting people move to Metro or Bicycles.
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Old 1st June 2016, 12:08   #92
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Default Re: Why engine capacity-based diesel vehicle bans don't make any sense

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Originally Posted by PrideRed View Post
What about Public Transport ? They BMTC/KSRTC buses here are more than 2000cc and without any test can confirm are far more polluting. I know its a public transport and carries a lot more people and is a lifeline to majority who cannot afford a car.But should not pollution be everyone's responsibility??
I might be sounding a bit harsh, but if Government expects wealthy to move from BMW to Maruti, nothing wrong in expecting bus commuting people move to Metro or Bicycles.
In Delhi, buses run on CNG.
Regarding cities with diesel buses, a bus carries 70 people. A car on an average 2. So unless a single bus pollutes more than 35 cars, a bus is still better.
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Old 1st June 2016, 12:59   #93
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Default Re: Why engine capacity-based diesel vehicle bans don't make any sense

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Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
In Delhi, buses run on CNG.
Regarding cities with diesel buses, a bus carries 70 people. A car on an average 2. So unless a single bus pollutes more than 35 cars, a bus is still better.
Switching to CNG is the way to go. But I am not convinced with Diesel buses. There are cars running with just 1 and there are Cabs carrying 5. Similarly there are buses carrying 70-80 people and there are buses carrying 35 as well. Adding to these, the buses are atleast 8-10 years old and the engines have clocked lakhs of KM's. The maintenance is quite poor as well.
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Old 1st June 2016, 13:11   #94
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Default Re: Why engine capacity-based diesel vehicle bans don't make any sense

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Originally Posted by NiXTriX2004 View Post
There is good reason for this. The manufacturer who does this will be perceived to be anti - environmental even when if the data suggests otherwise. This could prove to a huge blow to the manufacturers who are already reeling under negative publicity like VW or struggling like Fiat. A write up in one of the national newspaper with the headline"Manufacturer does not agree with NGT" could spell disaster for a few manufacturers.
Hasn't there anyway been enough hue and cry with manufacturers stating that the intake air is dirtier than the emitted air, threatening to pull back investments into the country and so on? Perhaps not a VW or Fiat, but why not Toyota or JLR or Mercedes or anyone else who has the confidence in their engines and data?
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Old 1st June 2016, 14:07   #95
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Default Re: Why engine capacity-based diesel vehicle bans don't make any sense

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Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
In Delhi, buses run on CNG.
Regarding cities with diesel buses, a bus carries 70 people. A car on an average 2. So unless a single bus pollutes more than 35 cars, a bus is still better.
Sorry but I beg to disagree. Seating capacity of a vehicle should not be a function of deciding the pollution, a vehicle creates. In fact, it is the amount of pollution raised by the vehicle in unit time, travelling a unit distance.
If not, 7 seater vehicles should be discounted by a factor of 5/7 in order to compare them with 5 seater which is incorrect and a 2 seater sports car should only have 1 Litre diesel engine since it can seat 2 people.
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Old 1st June 2016, 14:10   #96
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Default Re: Why engine capacity-based diesel vehicle bans don't make any sense

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Originally Posted by Cooltronics View Post
Sorry but I beg to disagree. Seating capacity of a vehicle should not be a function of deciding the pollution, a vehicle creates. In fact, it is the amount of pollution raised by the vehicle in unit time, travelling a unit distance.
If not, 7 seater vehicles should be discounted by a factor of 5/7 in order to compare them with 5 seater which is incorrect and a 2 seater sports car should only have 1 Litre diesel engine since it can seat 2 people.
Well world over buses and cars have to confirm to different pollution norms. Overall impact over a city is measured by pollution/commuter.
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Old 1st June 2016, 15:20   #97
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Default Re: Why engine capacity-based diesel vehicle bans don't make any sense

Amazing work Tanveer.

If I look at the positive side of the ban -

The NGT was put into place by Supreme Court as it felt that the GOI was not working towards controlling pollution. Now with such bans should jolt the GOI from its slumber and they should go back to the drawing board to draft stringent laws to monitor and control pollution in a phased manner to ensure that the economy is not put out of balance by sudden direction changes. The laws should also try to ensure the balance between pollution, economy and growth is restored. Once such laws are implemented there is no need to have NGT or bans from NGT.
Only long term vision and planning can "solve" the solution problem.

Am I being too optimistic?
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Old 1st June 2016, 15:37   #98
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Default Re: Why engine capacity-based diesel vehicle bans don't make any sense

I propose that Diesel powered tractors be also included. They pollute far more. The NGT after banning them should go and spend a week in a Haryana or Punjab village. When (and if) they return they will hopefully have moved off their high horses.

This is what happens when the Judiciary starts taking over the functions of the administration ans / or legislature since the latter have abdicated their duty.
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Old 1st June 2016, 16:30   #99
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Default Re: Why engine capacity-based diesel vehicle bans don't make any sense

Meanwhile, a sane voice from the Government speaks out.

"Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar Monday said that some of the directives of the judiciary were “senseless” and “without any scientific basis”. He followed this with a reference to the Supreme Court ban on diesel vehicles with an engine capacity of 2000cc and above in the Capital. “Senseless directions are being given without any scientific basis. Some people who do not understand science have begun interpreting it,” he said at a public function in Panaji."

- See more at: http://indianexpress.com/article/ind....rn2NgOmv.dpuf
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Old 1st June 2016, 16:55   #100
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Default Re: Why engine capacity-based diesel vehicle bans don't make any sense

I have said this umpteen times, in teambhp forums as well -

I don't understand why, a vehicle carrying a valid pollution under control (PUC) certificate, be banned for polluting?

I understand that in real world, PUC certificates are just a sham. But, rather than banning vehicles, efforts should be made to strengthen the process of sanctioning PUC certificate instead.

It defies logic, and law too, that a vehicle which adheres to the pollution norms set by Govt, is not allowed to be used.
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Old 1st June 2016, 18:42   #101
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Originally Posted by Nav-i-gator View Post
I don't understand why, a vehicle carrying a valid pollution under control (PUC) certificate, be banned for polluting?

It defies logic, and law too, that a vehicle which adheres to the pollution norms set by Govt, is not allowed to be used.
+1
We have always had regulations and laws but implementing them is a different ball game altogether. If they had been strict in issuing PUC properly, we wouldn't have been stuck in this situation today.
The first thing I learnt during my training at Japan was, to ask 5 WHYs which would help us understand the core issue so that apparently we could address it and provide solutions.

WHY ban those cars?
They pollute the atmosphere all the more.

WHY don't we have a regulatory body for pollution check?
We do have one. Yes, the PUC does exist.

WHY is the PUC ineffective?
They exist, but we all know, it is not stringent. They do not understand the paramount importance of the emission tests and the issual of the PUC.

WHY is it not stringent?
There is no proper monitoring system.

Now, as we already have the answer, I guess the necessity of the 5th WHY does not arise.

We are in dire need of a proper monitoring system or agency that would cross check the PUC centres and hold them accountable.

Accountability is not so common in our country now a days.
A blanket ban seems to be an easier option for them. :thumbdown:

I would really like to thank Tanveer for the detailed analysis and I give this thread 5 shinning stars!.
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Old 1st June 2016, 18:44   #102
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Default Re: Why engine capacity-based diesel vehicle bans don't make any sense

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Originally Posted by sgiitk View Post
I propose that Diesel powered tractors be also included. They pollute far more. The NGT after banning them should go and spend a week in a Haryana or Punjab village. When (and if) they return they will hopefully have moved off their high horses.

This is what happens when the Judiciary starts taking over the functions of the administration ans / or legislature since the latter have abdicated their duty.
You do know that in most villages people just burn the garbage ...

While someone like NGT is so anal about what comes out of a car exhaust (pun intended), they should be made aware that pollution due to burning garbage outside metro areas and in villages also contributes substantially to air pollution. Especially in winter months in North India and all around the year elsewhere.
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Old 2nd June 2016, 00:40   #103
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Default Re: Why engine capacity-based diesel vehicle bans don't make any sense

Engine Capacity and exhaust pollution are two separate worlds in themselves. To curb pollution, they need to enforce Euro standards (since ARAI standards are more ambiguous than detailed).
PUC needs to be more stringent. In Delhi, the PUC issuing authorities sometimes don't even bother to take the reading and just hand over the PUC. Once outside the city, PUC in Haryana and UP is handed without even checking the RC. They just click the picture of your registration number, ask about the nature of vehicle (petrol or diesel) and handover the PUC.

To handle this, the easier solution should be to enforce the next Euro standard in next 1 year and create a market space where people can sell / dispose their older vehicles for scrapping at good prices. (Not sure If this would work)

With this 2000 CC ban , I wonder, if i will ever be able to upgrade to some proper SUV from my Ecosport.

More than the vehicles, its other non-civilian activities like garbage burning, sand transportation (On Open Dumper trucks that create a sandstorm whereever they go), construction activities, Heavy pollution causing industries, thermal plants, using coal tar for road construction and repair.
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Old 2nd June 2016, 00:49   #104
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Default Re: Why engine capacity-based diesel vehicle bans don't make any sense

Does NGT know that there is another entity that creates more CO2 than all cars, planes and all other forms of transport put together? Are they going to ban that too?

http://www.independent.co.uk/environ...rs-427843.html
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Old 2nd June 2016, 06:50   #105
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Default Re: Why engine capacity-based diesel vehicle bans don't make any sense

NASA reports around 39 unreported air pollution, http://www.prnewswire.com/news-relea...300277966.html
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