Go Back   Team-BHP > BHP India > The Indian Car Scene


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 2nd June 2016, 08:25   #106
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Mumbai
Posts: 1,194
Thanked: 707 Times
Default

I am surprised the car manufacturers / SIAM aren't collectively coming together to challenge this on sheer grounds of arbitrariness.

Slightly stupid Q. For those of us who have existing diesel cars, what exactly are we supposed to do with them. Sell them to the non banned cities?

Will a resale of a 2000cc +diesel vehicle in same city be ok? Within 10 years. What if the resale is from one Kerala to Delhi or vice versa? Both cities where new registrations are banned but what about secondary sales of existing registered vehicles.
Axe77 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd June 2016, 09:28   #107
Senior - BHPian
 
srishiva's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Bengaluru
Posts: 3,411
Thanked: 646 Times
Default Re: Why engine capacity-based diesel vehicle bans don't make any sense

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
Does NGT know that there is another entity that creates more CO2 than all cars, planes and all other forms of transport put together? Are they going to ban that too?

http://www.independent.co.uk/environ...rs-427843.html
Maybe they will based on their size or weight

In our villages, there is no way they drink 990 litres of water as written in the article per day. They also eat the grass left over from grain production.
srishiva is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd June 2016, 10:46   #108
Team-BHP Support
 
Samurai's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: B'lore-Manipal
Posts: 21,785
Thanked: 12,822 Times
Default Re: Why engine capacity-based diesel vehicle bans don't make any sense

Quote:
Originally Posted by srishiva View Post
In our villages, there is no way they drink 990 litres of water as written in the article per day.
You misread it, it says 990lt of water is required for production of 1lt of milk, on average. Cows don't give milk from day one. It is usually after 2 years when they give birth. After that they give milk for few months before drying. Then you have to wait until next calf birth. So there are lots of time when no milk is produced, but water is consumed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by srishiva View Post
They also eat the grass left over from grain production.
In commercial farming, it is hard to get continuous supply of leftover grass from grain production. They have to grow grass specifically for feeding.

Anyway, let's not get off-topic. The cow pollution report is anyway 10 years old and is widely accepted as correct.
Samurai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd June 2016, 10:56   #109
BHPian
 
cs_rajesh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 146
Thanked: 81 Times
Default Re: Why engine capacity-based diesel vehicle bans don't make any sense

Does NGT have any sensible people at all is the question that comes to the mind. As many have said and I too say engine capacity and pollution may be correlated but that is not the prime reason at all.
Can at least any anti pollution body first study as a whole which are the polluters contributing most (like cattle and their methane exhaust, like open burning of garbage and plant material which are completely unaccounted for?). Within transportation, can they identify which class of vehicles pollute most? Next what kind of pollutants each class of vehicle or engine emit and which are greenhouse gases that cause global harm and which emissions cause local harm. Use such material as basis to bring right pointers and then from the top polluting means / machines, knock off one by one and thus arrive at what to ban , control , limit etc..

Even now, have they ever assessed banning >2k cc has made any reasonable impact or not before extending the same kind of ban across the country?
cs_rajesh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd June 2016, 11:02   #110
BHPian
 
vinya_jag's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Bengaluru
Posts: 342
Thanked: 163 Times
Default Re: Why engine capacity-based diesel vehicle bans don't make any sense

I feel Banning 2L + Diesels make sense. (For one reason)
Pollution aside, I feel, the heat generated from a diesel car is much higher than a petrol engine. Bigger the engine capacity, more the heat.

This summer was unusually hot in Bengaluru, as in other parts, and you could actually feel so much heat while riding a two wheeler, while driving next to a bus or a few diesel taxis.
This surely is gonna hurt.
We switched from our Petrol Figo to a Diesel Polo, and it takes so much longer for the diesel Polo to cool down once in the garage. We can sense the heat a couple of hours even after the vehicle has stopped running.

Its about time we become less enthusiastic about driving cars to work, and find alternate ways. (The govt)
vinya_jag is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd June 2016, 11:11   #111
Senior - BHPian
 
humyum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Leicester/Mumbai
Posts: 2,265
Thanked: 2,104 Times
Default Re: Why engine capacity-based diesel vehicle bans don't make any sense

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinya_jag View Post
I feel Banning 2L + Diesels make sense. (For one reason)
Pollution aside, I feel, the heat generated from a diesel car is much higher than a petrol engine. Bigger the engine capacity, more the heat.

This summer was unusually hot in Bengaluru, as in other parts, and you could actually feel so much heat while riding a two wheeler, while driving next to a bus or a few diesel taxis.
This surely is gonna hurt.
We switched from our Petrol Figo to a Diesel Polo, and it takes so much longer for the diesel Polo to cool down once in the garage. We can sense the heat a couple of hours even after the vehicle has stopped running.

Its about time we become less enthusiastic about driving cars to work, and find alternate ways. (The govt)
Strange though, although the operating temperature of diesel and petrol engines is almost the same, infact diesels a tad lower than petrol when driven hard, although during ignition and power stroke a diesel runs a tad bit hotter than a petrol.

So realistically speaking on the ground, there is no difference you will feel from a Diesel engine Vs a Petrol Engine.
humyum is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd June 2016, 11:20   #112
Senior - BHPian
 
kiku007's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 1,585
Thanked: 1,151 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinya_jag View Post
I feel Banning 2L + Diesels make sense. (For one reason)
Pollution aside, I feel, the heat generated from a diesel car is much higher than a petrol engine. Bigger the engine capacity, more the heat.

This summer was unusually hot in Bengaluru, as in other parts, and you could actually feel so much heat while riding a two wheeler, while driving next to a bus or a few diesel taxis.
This surely is gonna hurt.
We switched from our Petrol Figo to a Diesel Polo, and it takes so much longer for the diesel Polo to cool down once in the garage. We can sense the heat a couple of hours even after the vehicle has stopped running.

Its about time we become less enthusiastic about driving cars to work, and find alternate ways. (The govt)

How will it sound if someone says all air conditioning units above 1.5 T are banned in Bengaluru because the owners are selfish in keeping their homes and offices cool but contributing to heating up the outside environment?

You have to agree that when you stand next to an AC compressor it is indeed very noisy and hot.

Is that acceptable?

Agree to your last statement though.
kiku007 is online now   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 2nd June 2016, 11:29   #113
BHPian
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Gurgaon
Posts: 190
Thanked: 332 Times
Default Re: Why engine capacity-based diesel vehicle bans don't make any sense

Quote:
Originally Posted by humyum View Post
Strange though, although the operating temperature of diesel and petrol engines is almost the same, infact diesels a tad lower than petrol when driven hard, although during ignition and power stroke a diesel runs a tad bit hotter than a petrol.

So realistically speaking on the ground, there is no difference you will feel from a Diesel engine Vs a Petrol Engine.
Maybe off topic here - Diesel engines produce higher temp through compression which initiates auto-burning of fuel. Petrol engines need not do that. Engine block as a whole would be at higher temperature in diesel engine than a petrol one which is simply burning a mixture of fuel & air (can be potentially done at room temp also).

But I think it depends on thermal efficiency as well, which is higher in Diesel engines. The layman in me thinks that diesel engines indeed feel hotter than petrol ones. Case in point - diesel electric generators compared to generators using petrol/kerosens that we use at homes.
Nav-i-gator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd June 2016, 11:37   #114
Senior - BHPian
 
mallumowgli's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Palakkad/Coimbatore
Posts: 1,074
Thanked: 658 Times
Default Re: Why engine capacity-based diesel vehicle bans don't make any sense

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinya_jag View Post
I feel Banning 2L + Diesels make sense. (For one reason)
Pollution aside, I feel, the heat generated from a diesel car is much higher than a petrol engine. Bigger the engine capacity, more the heat.
The decision by NGT is somewhat along these lines. They 'felt' that the 2L+ vehicles pollute more - totally arbitrary and without any scientific study. Not saying that diesel engine doesn't produce any heat - just that the conclusion should be based on scientific study and then a comprehensive policy has to be formulated. Not knee jerk reactions. Now they are saying that this decision will not be extended to other states. Why? If it is not, why continue with the same in Kerala?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kiku007 View Post
How will it sound if someone says all air conditioning units above 1.5 T are banned in Bengaluru ...

Is that acceptable?
Again, acceptable, if there is a comprehensive well debated, thought out policy with scientific reasoning

Forget NGT, our entire executive and politicians are known only for knee jerk reactions
mallumowgli is offline   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 2nd June 2016, 11:46   #115
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 2,362
Thanked: 511 Times
Default Re: Why engine capacity-based diesel vehicle bans don't make any sense

More scientific method would be to penalize/incentivise a vehicle based on these parameters
  • Amount of emission (more it pollutes, more penalty)
  • Fuel consumption (more incentives for efficient engines)
  • People carrying capacity (more the capacity, less burden on the environment)

This way a modern diesel SUV with a large heart carrying with 7 people could be less damaging to the environment then a small petrol car with old tech.
Guna is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd June 2016, 11:47   #116
Team-BHP Support
 
tsk1979's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: New Delhi
Posts: 22,774
Thanked: 15,278 Times
Default Re: Why engine capacity-based diesel vehicle bans don't make any sense

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinya_jag View Post
I feel Banning 2L + Diesels make sense. (For one reason)
Pollution aside, I feel, the heat generated from a diesel car is much higher than a petrol engine. Bigger the engine capacity, more the heat.

This summer was unusually hot in Bengaluru, as in other parts, and you could actually feel so much heat while riding a two wheeler, while driving next to a bus or a few diesel taxis.
This surely is gonna hurt.
We switched from our Petrol Figo to a Diesel Polo, and it takes so much longer for the diesel Polo to cool down once in the garage. We can sense the heat a couple of hours even after the vehicle has stopped running.

Its about time we become less enthusiastic about driving cars to work, and find alternate ways. (The govt)
See, arguments like this feel

"I want to ban something, lemme find a reason.. Yeah Pollution"

"After some data analysis... Oh boy pollution did not work, how about something else!!"

If you want to get rid of heat, please petition your office to switch off air conditioning. Also shut down the data centers too. Those glass buildings are heat islands.

Infact, if we ban all modes of employment, people will stop driving to work. Problem solved!!
tsk1979 is offline   (7) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 2nd June 2016, 11:47   #117
Distinguished - BHPian
 
sgiitk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Kanpur
Posts: 6,917
Thanked: 3,471 Times
Default Re: Why engine capacity-based diesel vehicle bans don't make any sense

Next our NGT will try and ban Cows from belching. This is where we are headed. Also, close all thermal power plants.
sgiitk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd June 2016, 12:01   #118
Senior - BHPian
 
mallumowgli's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Palakkad/Coimbatore
Posts: 1,074
Thanked: 658 Times
Default Re: Why engine capacity-based diesel vehicle bans don't make any sense

Quote:
Originally Posted by sgiitk View Post
Next our NGT will try and ban Cows from belching. This is where we are headed. Also, close all thermal power plants.
You are quite close actually - not belching, but farting. That produces quite lot of methane, IIRC. If our NGT gets hold of that report, it would be anybody's guess as to what they will end up banning!!

Sadly in all this melee, what we are going to end up with is more polluting cars on the road, Indian companies less interested in investing in new technologies, and MNCs not interested in investing itself!
mallumowgli is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd June 2016, 12:51   #119
Team-BHP Support
 
navin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: mumbai
Posts: 21,963
Thanked: 3,504 Times
Default Re: Why engine capacity-based diesel vehicle bans don't make any sense

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinya_jag View Post
the heat generated from a diesel car is much higher than a petrol engine. Bigger the engine capacity, more the heat.
Heating of the air from vehicle engines (like described above) and even air conditioning is insignificant. Most of the UHI effect is due to tall buildings and heat absorption by tarmac, reduction of green cover (this is why parks like Central Park (NYC), Hyde Park (LON), English Garden (MUC), Bitsevsky Park (MOW), Chapultepec (MEX), King's Park (PER) etc. are so important).

I remember reading this in an old issue of Fortune (I think the study was done in Tokyo or maybe it was Hong Kong) and I assume it can be googled.

Last edited by navin : 2nd June 2016 at 13:05.
navin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd June 2016, 14:19   #120
Newbie
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 19
Thanked: 7 Times
Default Re: Why engine capacity-based diesel vehicle bans don't make any sense

While I applaud the analytical approach which pretty much presents the case against the NGT ban, what begs to be answered is, where is the NGT's data or their side of the story to substantiate the ban? I am sure our honorable auto manufacturers would have countered the NGT hearing with similar data as has been presented here. Why then did they still go ahead with the ban?

Are we missing some key data/information in this entire episode which justifies the ban or is it just that the NGT is flexing it's muscle to show who is boss?

Point I am trying to make is that, are we seeing only one side of the story and data as has been very effectively presented here or is there more?
shiva75 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Does cruise control + manual gearbox make any sense? ganeshram Technical Stuff 18 3rd March 2014 16:17
Engine oil capacity of Indigo's 475idi Diesel engine HIGHNOON Technical Stuff 17 15th August 2013 20:50
Some numbers in brochures don't make sense... gurudutt Technical Stuff 19 30th May 2011 12:32
Does the new Accent Executive make any sense ? akash_m Sedans 52 27th May 2009 15:12
Does selling 06 Getz GLE and buying a Getz CRDI or GLX with ABS make any sense? rm_arjuna Hatchbacks 16 26th April 2009 21:30


All times are GMT +5.5. The time now is 09:02.

Copyright 2000 - 2017, Team-BHP.com
Proudly powered by E2E Networks