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Old 2nd June 2016, 14:29   #151
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Default re: Overdrive's hatchback track test - Figo 1.5 diesel quickest!

In the interest of keeping things just, here goes:

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Originally Posted by Suraj25 View Post
Let me try and justify why the Abarth lost out:
- Crappy JK tyres. It's a downgrade from the alnac 4Gs, so imagine how much time the car would've lost cause of wheel slippage.
umm all the cars were equipped with the same tyres so no point crying foul over that. As mentioned earlier, few other cars would also have found the JK tyres to be a downgrade (if at all that term is warranted considering all the stock tyres are pretty awful themselves) In terms of tyre traction, every car had the same amount. Mechanical grip and chassis balance is another story altogether.
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Originally Posted by Suraj25 View Post
- Low speed track. Diesels are known for their midrange punch and poor top end whereas the abarth shows its prowess in the upper middle and top end of the rev range. This track basically didn't allow the driver to use the abarths top end so it lost out there as well.
Completely true. Infact has already been pointed out before.

I would also like to add the lack of a good gearbox with well tuned gear ratios to the mix.

Last edited by IshaanIan : 2nd June 2016 at 14:32.
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Old 2nd June 2016, 14:38   #152
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Default re: Overdrive's hatchback track test - Figo 1.5 diesel quickest!

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Originally Posted by Suraj25 View Post
Hate to see the Abarth getting bashed like this.

Let me try and justify why the Abarth lost out:
- Crappy JK tyres. It's a downgrade from the alnac 4Gs, so imagine how much time the car would've lost cause of wheel slippage.
- Low speed track. Diesels are known for their midrange punch and poor top end whereas the abarth shows its prowess in the upper middle and top end of the rev range. This track basically didn't allow the driver to use the abarths top end so it lost out there as well.
If the same test was carried out in Buddh, the Abarth would've come on top with a lead of a few seconds at the least.
Diesel cars produce more torque at lower RPM (hence at lower speeds as well). I guess, possibility of wheel spins would be more in diesel cars compared to petrol ones which build up speed/power (higher power at higher RPM) comparatively linearly. Poor tires hence would be more detrimental to diesels in a test track not meant for high speeds (too many turns and frequent braking/accelerations).
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Old 2nd June 2016, 14:41   #153
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Default re: Overdrive's hatchback track test - Figo 1.5 diesel quickest!

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Originally Posted by Nav-i-gator View Post

On a Figo (in context to the shoot-out results), one can spend less, get pretty much everything abarth has to offer, without modding it.
You are right in the context of the shoot out results. There is nothing more VFM than figo diesel.

However, Not every one wants (or knows) to corner like they are on a track.
Some people may just want enormous Mad Power and want to breath fire up and down normal roads and highways. The Abarth Punto's handling and mad power is great for that purpose in my opinion.

That is why, there is still a small market for this type of cars.
Plus, there are some people who don't like diesels or have very low running or are apprehensive of NGT's mad rulings. Turbo petrols are an answer to their needs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nav-i-gator View Post
Diesel cars produce more torque at lower RPM (hence at lower speeds as well). I guess, possibility of wheel spins would be more in diesel cars compared to petrol ones which build up speed/power (higher power at higher RPM) comparatively linearly. Poor tires hence would be more detrimental to diesels in a test track not meant for high speeds (too many turns and frequent braking/accelerations).
Good point!
However, In the figo, the torque is not peaky. It is a linear shove. Plus, the torque is spread well, and linearly in low and mid rpm range.
This can help in a tight track. A linear torque delivery helps reduce wheel spin.

Last edited by abhishek46 : 2nd June 2016 at 14:47. Reason: added quote
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Old 2nd June 2016, 15:03   #154
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IshaanIan View Post
In the interest of keeping things just, here goes:

umm all the cars were equipped with the same tyres so no point crying foul over that.
I completely agree with you Ishaan. Why I mentioned tyres was because the car already suffers from unintentional wheel spins in 1st and 2nd, so poorer tyres made it worse. The other cars don't have this problem. But as it was just to standardise things, I can't complain!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nav-i-gator View Post
Diesel cars produce more torque at lower RPM (hence at lower speeds as well). I guess, possibility of wheel spins would be more in diesel cars compared to petrol ones which build up speed/power (higher power at higher RPM) comparatively linearly. Poor tires hence would be more detrimental to diesels in a test track not meant for high speeds (too many turns and frequent braking/accelerations).
Sir what you're saying is right in theory, but floor the Figo in first and it won't spin the wheels unless you dump the clutch intentionally. Do the same in the Abarth and the only thing you're gonna get is wheel spin. Like someone mentioned it's about how the power is delivered across the rev band.
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Old 2nd June 2016, 15:59   #155
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Default re: Overdrive's hatchback track test - Figo 1.5 diesel quickest!

Quote:
Originally Posted by IshaanIan View Post

umm all the cars were equipped with the same tyres so no point crying foul over that. As mentioned earlier, few other cars would also have found the JK tyres to be a downgrade (if at all that term is warranted considering all the stock tyres are pretty awful themselves) In terms of tyre traction, every car had the same amount.
Even other cars would've found JKs as a downgrade but I feel the effect would be a lot more on the abarth due to the additional horses. This car requires a 205-225 section rubber to put down all of that power properly. Stock wheels already struggles for traction and jks made it worser. So the abarth would've lost a lot more time when compared to the figo due to crappy tyres. Also they mention about short shifting to avoid wheelspin which simply means they haven't used the entire power of this high revving machine. So for each and every gearshift abarth is losing time due to short shifting too.
And I may be wrong here but it beats my logic why same tyres are used on all of these very different cars. If we were comparing a stock and remapped car(same make) on a track same tyres too would've made sense. Here we've got very different cars with different engines, suspensions, gearbox etc.. and that too with one on another end of the spectrum. Then why focusing on tyres only. Going by that logic they should use same brake pads too then. Reminds me of the NGTs diesel ban in my state. The cut off/standardisation doesn't seem correct to me.
At the same time I guess Fiat should've provided the abarth with a minimum of 205 section rubber. Its priced high enough for that.
And on a lighter note, I stopped reading Overdrive a long long time ago. Many a times I found they were highly commercialised and favouring a few particular brands. Don't know about this review but I still can't find a reason to follow them again.

Last edited by SUPERSPORT : 2nd June 2016 at 16:11.
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Old 2nd June 2016, 16:17   #156
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Default re: Overdrive's hatchback track test - Figo 1.5 diesel quickest!

Quote:
Originally Posted by SUPERSPORT View Post
Even other cars would've found JKs as a downgrade but I feel the effect would be a lot more on the abarth due to the additional horses. This car requires a 205-225 section rubber to put down all of that power properly. Stock wheels already struggles for traction and jks made it worser. So the abarth would've lost a lot more time when compared to the figo due to crappy tyres. Also they mention about short shifting to avoid wheelspin which simply means they haven't used the entire power of this high revving machine. So for each and every gearshift abarth is losing time due to short shifting too.
Having had plenty of experience myself, I can confidently say that none of the cars would have been able to put down full power with JK Vectras or even Apollo Alnac 4G tyres. The Vectras are worse than the Apollos but not by a huge margin they are all fairly crappy eco tyres geared toward low rolling resistance, long life, and mileage. All the cars would have required high levels of throttle modulation it is just that the Punto has a lot more power and is geared and tuned in such a way that short shifting was also necessary. Having bad tyres is one thing, but please don't bother questioning control tyres in a track test and asking why brake pads are also not controlled, that would be a never ending slippery slope of standardization and in the end you wont be comparing anything fact is as a stock vs stock comparison, it simply does not get any better than this since stock tyre dimensions are all geared towards mileage and finding a performance tyre in stock dimensions for these cars is simply impossible. Sure full performance potential may not have been tested but chassis characteristics have been well outlined by the test.
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Old 2nd June 2016, 16:24   #157
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Default re: Overdrive's hatchback track test - Figo 1.5 diesel quickest!

The only reason JK tyre and Mobile oil was used because they paid money to be sponsor of the test, there is no standardization involved here.

IMO the same tyre will affect all the cars same way, i don't agree to the point that some car will perform slower than others with the same set of tyres. Still with such kind of sponsorship the whole tests are questionable.
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Old 2nd June 2016, 16:48   #158
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Default Re: Overdrive's hatchback track test - Figo 1.5 diesel quickest!

So there were two racers - one a sprinter (outright performance) and one a marathon man (fuel efficiency).

Both were asked to wear the same shoes and were asked to run a hurdle race. A sprinter is still supposed to win that.

While the marathon man was able to step up from what (or how) he is used to of running, the sprinter couldn't manage to bring all his power to full use.

Tire downgrade does not make it a handicap match against abarth. Consider Figo (and baleno as well). These cars are tuned for fuel efficiency. The step up in performance needed for them was much more than what was needed for abarth in this shootout.

I would say, this shoot out was more a test of adaptability when each car was driven out of its "comfort zone" (read:core expertise/competency)

So either we conclude and agree on - Without a "proper" performance tire, Abarth can not decidedly perform better against regular commuter hatches, OR - Abarth can smoke out every other hatch, but only in straight line track.

Or maybe both.
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Old 2nd June 2016, 16:58   #159
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Default Re: Overdrive's hatchback track test - Figo 1.5 diesel quickest!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nav-i-gator View Post
So there were two racers - one a sprinter (outright performance) and one a marathon man (fuel efficiency).

Both were asked to wear the same shoes and were asked to run a hurdle race. A sprinter is still supposed to win that.

While the marathon man was able to step up from what (or how) he is used to of running, the sprinter couldn't manage to bring all his power to full use.

Tire downgrade does not make it a handicap match against abarth. Consider Figo (and baleno as well). These cars are tuned for fuel efficiency. The step up in performance needed for them was much more than what was needed for abarth in this shootout.

I would say, this shoot out was more a test of adaptability when each car was driven out of its "comfort zone" (read:core expertise/competency)

So either we conclude and agree on - Without a "proper" performance tire, Abarth can not decidedly perform better against regular commuter hatches, OR - Abarth can smoke out every other hatch, but only in straight line track.

Or maybe both.
I concur, a hatchback that commands a premium of 3-4 lacs ought to perform better when tested with similar tyres.
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Old 2nd June 2016, 17:35   #160
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Default Re: Overdrive's hatchback track test - Figo 1.5 diesel quickest!

Have seen the video of the same test on the Overdrive, but was for Petrol variants of the test. I guess the diesel shoot out will be out later this week. And the same playing field in terms of engine oil and tyres was a good move. The tester's notes were on dot. I felt exactly the same when i pushed the Vento TSI, I20 Petrol and the Jazz (of course, couldn't push as much as their race car driver). I haven't tried the rest of the cars, hence cannot comment. It is nice to see that Overdrive actually came up with such a test. Hat's off to the effort. Hope to see them putting the sedans in the 12~15L price bracket for a test under similar conditions. A drag race between these cars would be a great watch.


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Old 2nd June 2016, 18:42   #161
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nav-i-gator View Post
An enthusiast is satisfied by his Figo, a pro-track driver is not satisfied with his Abarth.

Where does this leave Abarth punto?

Would we have bought the Abarth had this test happened a couple of months ago? -YES

As mentioned by many, yes the track results might be disappointing for many but at least in my case it doesn't bother me much. Factors like hydraulic steering, 4 wheel brakes and familiarity with the handling (we upgraded from a Punto) were the main factors to consider. I did TD the Figo, 1.5AT and the diesel, but didn't like diesel much. Yes it's fast and practical but simply doesn't have 'that' feeling. Figo AT was our second choice.
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Old 2nd June 2016, 19:48   #162
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Default Re: Overdrive's hatchback track test - Figo 1.5 diesel quickest!

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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Note to VW : Please disregard our earlier requests for a Polo 1.6 Petrol. We now want a Polo 1.6 diesel.
Slightly Off Topic but the only thing that I loved about the shootout was Bertrand's request, "Here’s an idea Hyundai, drop in the 1.6."

Seeing that the first one above made it, Amen to the second one!
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Old 2nd June 2016, 19:56   #163
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Default Re: Overdrive's hatchback track test - Figo 1.5 diesel quickest!

All the cars have basic Mc-Pherson struts in the front and Twist beam in the rear.

There isnt anything special going on in any of the cars except that some have more power than the others. I think, in the grand scheme of things, pretty much all the cars are slow overall.

And there is nothing wrong with that because in the end people will still buy cars that will spend less time at the workshop. I am sure you know which those cars are!
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Old 2nd June 2016, 20:30   #164
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Default Re: Overdrive's hatchback track test - Figo 1.5 diesel quickest!

I found the comparison quite interesting. Unlike many of the Overdrive videos, this one was quite well done, and Aditya Patel explained the bits very well.
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Old 3rd June 2016, 08:37   #165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nav-i-gator View Post
Diesel cars produce more torque at lower RPM (hence at lower speeds as well). I guess, possibility of wheel spins would be more in diesel cars compared to petrol ones which build up speed/power (higher power at higher RPM) comparatively linearly. Poor tires hence would be more detrimental to diesels in a test track not meant for high speeds (too many turns and frequent braking/accelerations).
Not realy sure on this. Have owned a couple of petrol and diesel cars for a while now and safely say that petrol's cause a lot more wheel spin than diesel. Our i10 , and S10 have had way more number number of wheelspins as compared to our i20 Diesel. What your saying may be true in theory, but when you actually floor the throttle the reverse actually happens .


And regarding the test results, I still believe those who want a proper fun hatchback would always get the Abarth no matter what the results are.Simply because it's phenomenal fun and build so great. The figo is fun for sure, but atleast a few notches below the Italian. If you want outright fun, the Abarth it is, if frugality is in the back of the mind-then the Ford appeals more.

PS:I still wish the Figo had more "Ford"ness in it. Maybe it'll loose a few seconds ,if it was build like the old Figo, I would've still loved it a lot more . Sorry for going OT here
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