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Old 28th May 2016, 20:44   #16
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Default re: Overdrive's hatchback track test - Figo 1.5 diesel quickest!

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Originally Posted by mxh View Post
The 1.5 Figo petrol is over 4 seconds slower than the 1.5 Figo diesel even though is has higher peak power? Somehow I don't trust these results or the driver completely.
And the petrol Figo thus nabs a higher top speed due to that higher power rating however, it is bogged down by a DCT so results really aren't that surprising.
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Originally Posted by mxh View Post
Also check the last line in the article, it says the hatchbacks are running JK tyres and Mobil 1 oil. Why not stock??
Equalizer to properly test and compare each car's abilities. Control measures are taken both on track and in the science lab

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Originally Posted by mxh View Post
Why do we need a leveller? Is that how the cars are sold to consumers? Cars should cars use the same tyres and fluids that customers buy them with. Would you run a Ferrari on JK tyres and mineral oil if they get sponsorship from those companies? As far as I'm concerned, this invalidates the results to a large degree. It gives unfair advantage to some cars and unfair disadvantage to others.
All track or lap time tests are done using control tyres. It has always been an important element when comparing lap times so as to have no unfair advantage. Besides, if you bought a car you would probably use a different set of tyres for track days anyway. No car in this test comes with amazing tyres as stock. They all use some budget eco tyre or the other in the same class as the JK Vectras so no need to cry foul here mate.

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Originally Posted by nakul0888 View Post
This is fishy stuff. Something doesnt add up.

But how does the petrol cars get left behind in a track day where you are at the redline all the time. Diesels are literally dead at the top end so, their low down torque advantage wouldnt matter very much.

Was this done at some sort of go kart track?
The only strong contenders from the Petrol side are the T-jet in the Abarth, 1.5 duratec in the Figo and 1.2tsi in the Polo. The one outfitted with a manual gearbox that doesn't question your decisions or fumble on downshifts, is obviously the only one with a good lap time. The 1.2 K series and 1.2 petrol in the i20 and 1.2 VTEC in the Jazz really don't stack up well in comparison to their diesel counterparts. Replace the weak and weedy K series motor with the old G13B and take the 1.2 VTEC plonked into the Brio which is a lighter more taut chassis, and you will get some respectable times.

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Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR View Post
The advantage on track for the Figo diesel is 0.1 seconds. This is after downgrading of tyres on the Abarth and might be the original Alnacs on the FIAT would have helped matters here. But, taking the 0.1 seconds as it is - Abarth still retains a wonderful steering and a fully communicative chasis balance as mentioned in the article itself. Figo diesel might be faster, but which one would be more fun to drive?
Both the JK Vectras and Apollo Alnacs are low budget eco tyres. Neither more impressive than the other. Abarth is definitely a good car and I'd love to cruise around in it but I'm not sure which would be more fun to drive 10 out of 10 times because I love pushing cars close to their limits (it is a different thrill altogether when compared to just going fast) and when you do that I find the more important things to be being able to rotate the chassis and shifting. A car that allows you to easily control the shift of weight (Punto's suspension while brilliant, is still too soft for the weight of the body and ends up making it roll/dive/squat too much) and a solid gearbox with smooth shifts and short throws allows for easier fluent shifts especially while rev-matching. The Abarth Punto is great and I can appreciate the ride, grip, feedback and power levels while cruising around but I find it less pleasurable than it could be on the limit making it feel like we got a bit of a diluted version here in India.


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Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR View Post
Polo GT TSi -

Lol. This was supposed to be competition to the Punto Abarth and with so many numerous heated debates on our forums about how the DSG would make up for the power deficit, i least expected Polo GT TSi to be competing and losing against Baleno and i20 diesels and barely managing to stay ahead of the Jazz diesel. Punto Abarth and the Figo diesel is way faster.
[b]
No surprise there really there is simply no way a stock DSG car can compete with a Manual. Even if you are using manual mode, the DSG wont shift down close to the redline, and even if it does, you will still have to be less aggressive on the car to maintain control of shift of weight considering you are not allowed to blip the throttle on downshifts to match revs. These things make night and day kind of difference while racing.

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Originally Posted by thoma View Post
I couldn't get it clearly. Is the top speeds restricted due to the track or are these the car's maximum capacity?
Obviously it is due to the track.

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Originally Posted by Rajeevraj View Post
Ah. Thanks. Makes perfect sense now. So the DSG, which is a perfect match to the TSI on the road fails it on the track.I assume a manual TSI would have given a much better fight to the Punto and Abarth.

Wish they had got a GT TDI into the mix too. Would have been interesting to see how that fared.
Having extensively driven the Fabia and the Polo even in 1.6 petrol guise, I strongly believe that had the GT TSI been equipped with a manual it would have been at the top in this test. The car may be a bit soft, might have a light steering with no feedback and no stonking brakes like the Abarth, but it is simply a delight to drive on the limit. FWD drifting has never been more easy and controllable than in the Polo/Fabia. Something just makes it click in the way it is setup that allows you to dance on its limits with relative confidence.

Last edited by IshaanIan : 28th May 2016 at 20:55.
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Old 28th May 2016, 21:24   #17
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Default re: Overdrive's hatchback track test - Figo 1.5 diesel quickest!

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Originally Posted by Rajeevraj View Post

Wish they had got a GT TDI into the mix too. Would have been interesting to see how that fared.
Honestly Rajeevraj, I was really hoping this myself. At least, they should have got their hands on the 1.5 GT TDI, considering the fact that the fastest car on this day was an oil burner !!

I recently drove the Figo 1.5 TDI and that car is deceivingly quick. It does not have a brutal push like the one on the 1.6 GT or the S-Cross 320DDiS, but it covers crazy distance while accelerating. Somehow, I could not replicate the feeling I got from the 1.6 GT or the DDiS 320 during my Abarth TD.

Just wondering how would some of the quickest diesels today would compare against the 'Affordable' True Blue Hot hatch in India!!


Some videos for thought:


Stock 1.6 GT TDI Acceleration:



Stock Punto Abarth Acceleration:



Stock Figo 1.5 TDCI, Swift DDiS, Tata Bolt 90 and Grand i10 CRDI



Stock Baleno (Petrol & Diesel) Acceleration:



Couldn't find one for the Elite 1.4 CRDi, but found something interesting:


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Old 28th May 2016, 21:42   #18
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Default re: Overdrive's hatchback track test - Figo 1.5 diesel quickest!

The star car for me is the Suzuki Baleno diesel. It is down on power by close to 50% to the Abarth and manages to be just 2 seconds slower. The secret? Power to weight ratio and a well tuned engine. It is unbeatable. It is lighter than the Abarth by a shade over 200 kilos and that is no small amount.

Disappointed by the results of the Abarth. It should have been much faster. I have not driven the Abarth but I assume it runs the exact same gearbox as the Linea T Jet (ratios aside). Long travel clutch and the worst shift action of all the listed cars. The gearbox on this car requires absolute focus on where the gates are, especially if you are quick shifting. Not something you notice on your daily drive. It is possible that the time it takes to slot in the next gear and release the clutch, you've introduced some turbo lag and the T Jet motor isn't the fastest in terms of rev build up.

EDIT : Another negative for the Abarth are those hopeless 195mm Alnac's. There is no way you can put down all that power with these tires.

The Ford is a big surprise. Once again, great power to weight ratio and a very tractable engine.

I expected a lot more from the VW GT. Having spent a considerable amount of time with the sweetest 1.2l turbo petrol motor there is, in Sport mode, on the GT and Vento, I did think this car would have come on top. This is a fast revving motor too.

I hate to say this but these new gen diesel engines are slowly taking over. We love cheap gas too.

Unfortunately, the only driver focused car in the list is the Abarth. Wish there were more.

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Old 28th May 2016, 22:02   #19
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Default re: Overdrive's hatchback track test - Figo 1.5 diesel quickest!

I saw the hot hatch serial on OD today, and it was only limited to petrols. Where did the Figo tdci come into the picture? Was it in last week's show?

Among petrols shown today, the Abarth came on top, followed by the Polo GT Tsi. Third was the Baleno, closely followed by the Figo DCT. i20 and Jazz were at the bottom.
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Old 28th May 2016, 23:47   #20
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Default re: Overdrive's hatchback track test - Figo 1.5 diesel quickest!

A lot can be said and done, But for some reason for me VW Polo 1.2 GT TSI still remains the pick of the choice, Reason? Aftermarket Modifications! Just so much can be done, You can literally keep investing in a car like the GT TSI and i am sure no one would ever get bored of it very soon, German built quality is a plus as well.
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Old 29th May 2016, 00:43   #21
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Default re: Overdrive's hatchback track test - Figo 1.5 diesel quickest!

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A lot can be said and done, But for some reason for me VW Polo 1.2 GT TSI still remains the pick of the choice, Reason? Aftermarket Modifications! Just so much can be done, You can literally keep investing in a car like the GT TSI and i am sure no one would ever get bored of it very soon, German built quality is a plus as well.
Aftermarket options exist in similar amounts for nearly every other car in this comparo as well save for maybe the Ford and the Hyundai. It is just bolt on parts that you can buy over the counter that exist more for the Polo if you really are into modification and know your stuff, you would be surprised what can be done to any of the other cars including the Jap Jazz and Baleno and the Italian Fiat.

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Old 29th May 2016, 00:56   #22
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Default re: Overdrive's hatchback track test - Figo 1.5 diesel quickest!

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Originally Posted by IshaanIan View Post
Aftermarket options exist in similar amounts for nearly every other car in this comparo as well save for maybe the Ford and the Hyundai. It is just parts that you can buy over the counter that exist more for the Polo else you would be surprised what can be done to any of the other cars including the Jap Jazz and Baleno and the Italian Fiat.
By modifications on GT TSI i meant, Full MFD, DRL, Projectors headlamps, Front parking sensors with OPS, Paddle shifters, BOV and lot of other performance mods, Such features sure does make a car stand out, There is a reason we have so many modded polo's around, Its very Mod friendly.
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Old 29th May 2016, 01:02   #23
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Default re: Overdrive's hatchback track test - Figo 1.5 diesel quickest!

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Originally Posted by Tanveer_2558 View Post
By modifications on GT TSI i meant, Full MFD, DRL, Projectors headlamps, Front parking sensors with OPS, Paddle shifters, BOV and lot of other performance mods, Such features sure does make a car stand out, There is a reason we have so many modded polo's around, Its very Mod friendly.
If you are talking about gizmos and features those are just accessories and who said you cannot have a chirpy BOV on the T-Jet? Name one thing apart from being able to fiddle around with the VAGCOM system that you don't think can be done to the other cars here. Like I said, if you know your stuff, anything you can dream of doing to a Polo whether it be lighting or performance, can be done and done again with a Punto/Baleno/Jazz infact in many areas you have a lot more potential due to the relatively less complicated powertrain used in the other cars (parts are available and custom builds can always be done). The reason why there are more "modded" Polos out there is because, like I said, the lay-man can buy more plug and play parts over the counter. I suppose Mod friendly could mean one of two things here; less complicated easy to work with cars that accept a wide range of modifications like the Baleno/Jazz/Punto or it could mean a wide range but limited to only plug and play options like in the case of the Polo. Depends how you look at it.

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Old 29th May 2016, 01:21   #24
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Default re: Overdrive's hatchback track test - Figo 1.5 diesel quickest!

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Originally Posted by IshaanIan View Post
If you are talking about gizmos and features those are just accessories and who said you cannot have a chirpy BOV on the T-Jet?
I thought modifications cover both the gizmos the performance parts, Sure you can get a BOV on T-jet too and mostly any turbo petrol, But! "For me", It also matters whats inside the cabin, Whats there in a car apart from the performance, Driving daily within the city you are rarely going to red line it every now and then, So having gizmos in your car sure does help doesn't it?

Quote:
The reason why there are more "modded" Polos out there is because, like I said, the lay-man can buy more plug and play parts over the counter.
And plug and play is what makes it worth it, Can be easily sourced and easily installed, OEM products i have found to be always a notch or two higher than any third party or custom builds.

It maybe just me, But i prefer modifications available on german car's, Maybe because its plug and play, Maybe because you don't actually feel you have modified anything but you have an added feature, For instance the self parking system in my VW Jetta, Its just one Added oem button on the panel and nothing else in the interior, Yet how thing changes with a press of a button.

Also with germans its not any modification actually, Its mostly getting features installed in our stripped down version of the car compared to what's available in the international version of the car.
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Old 29th May 2016, 01:26   #25
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Default re: Overdrive's hatchback track test - Figo 1.5 diesel quickest!

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And plug and play is what makes it worth it, Can be easily sourced and easily installed, OEM products i have found to be always a notch or two higher than any third party or custom builds.
Like I said, different people have different outlooks on that. I for one find that if you actually know your stuff, you would not want to rely solely on plug and play options that limit the extent to which you can "modify" your car. Also I would not make sweeping statements like "always a notch or two higher" obviously there is a greater guarantee of quality but there are several great builds out there that can compete with a fully kitted out German car and in a few cases even put it to shame. As I said, you just need to know your stuff

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Old 29th May 2016, 01:33   #26
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Default re: Overdrive's hatchback track test - Figo 1.5 diesel quickest!

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Originally Posted by IshaanIan View Post
Like I said, different people have different outlooks on that. I for one find that if you actually know your stuff, you would not want to rely solely on plug and play options that limit the extent to which you can "modify" your car. Also I would not make sweeping statements like "always a notch or two higher" obviously there is a greater guarantee of quality but there are several great builds out there that can compete with a fully kitted out German car. As I said, you just need to know your stuff
Agreed, Plug and play works for me since it actually looks factory fitted, I would never install something which doesn't look good or look's third party, For instance i would never install those oil pressure and boost gauges in my jetta, Would rather get a R line steering wheel, So its a new addition with a factory fit look.

But yeah like you said, Different people have different outlooks.
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Old 29th May 2016, 07:59   #27
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Originally Posted by IshaanIan View Post
Both the JK Vectras and Apollo Alnacs are low budget eco tyres.
Apollo Alnac is different than Alnac 4G as far as I know. 4G has better reviews. Please check this international comparison.

http://www.tyrereviews.co.uk/Article...-Tyre-Test.htm

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Originally Posted by IshaanIan View Post
No surprise there really there is simply no way a stock DSG car can compete with a Manual.
Agreed.

For what it's worth- GT TSI still finished 1.2 secs faster than the Figo DCT.

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Originally Posted by IshaanIan View Post
The car may be a bit soft, might have a light steering with no feedback and no stonking brakes like the Abarth, but it is simply a delight to drive on the limit.
On one hand, you see a lot of members commenting on the Polo threads that suspension, brake upgrades are mandatory for the Polo TSI to start enjoying it.


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Originally Posted by Vik0728 View Post
At least, they should have got their hands on the 1.5 GT TDI
+1.

Beats my why Polo GT TDi was left out. Wondering if it could be due to the imminent engine upgrade, or the production halt (I thought only Vento was affected) due to the pollutions issue.


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Originally Posted by sandeepmohan View Post
The star car for me is the Suzuki Baleno diesel. It is down on power by close to 50% to the Abarth and manages to be just 2 seconds slower.
It is obvious that the track favours diesel cars. But I totally agree with your observations. Because the 75hp diesel Baleno is .1 secs faster than the 90hp diesel Elite i20 and 1.3 secs faster than the 100hp Honda Jazz round the track.

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Originally Posted by sandeepmohan View Post
EDIT : Another negative for the Abarth are those hopeless 195mm Alnac's. There is no way you can put down all that power with these tires.
Punto Abarth comes with Alnac 4G, not regular Alnac. The test was conducted with even worse JK Vectra tyres.

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Originally Posted by Tanveer_2558 View Post
A lot can be said and done, But for some reason for me VW Polo 1.2 GT TSI still remains the pick of the choice, Reason? Aftermarket Modifications!

By modifications on GT TSI i meant, Full MFD, DRL, Projectors headlamps, Front parking sensors with OPS, Paddle shifters, BOV and lot of other performance mods,


Seriously? On a track test thread we discussing lights and parking sensors?

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Old 29th May 2016, 08:21   #28
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Default re: Overdrive's hatchback track test - Figo 1.5 diesel quickest!

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Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR View Post
Apollo Alnac is different than Alnac 4G as far as I know. 4G has better reviews. Please check this international comparison.

http://www.tyrereviews.co.uk/Article...-Tyre-Test.htm
Yes they are probably better, but marginally so. Having driven cars shod with these tyres, I can safely say that they have absolutely no performance aspirations whatsoever. If they are slightly better it would be barely noticeable both tyres will screech and run out of grip even before a car with a terribly floppy chassis reaches the limits of its road hugging capabilities.


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Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR View Post
For what it's worth- GT TSI still finished 1.2 secs faster than the Figo DCT.
Yup the DSG is way better than the DCT in the Ford. The Ford's box is clearly tuned solely for efficiency. However I would love to see the TSI and 1.5 petrol Figo in manual guise. I'm sure they would be out on top.


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Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR View Post
On one hand, you see a lot of members commenting on the Polo threads that suspension, brake upgrades are mandatory for the Polo TSI to start enjoying it.
definitely there are no sporting credentials to the stock suspension and brakes and when driving the car normally they may even seem underwhelming and an upgrade would do a world of wonder. However I was commenting on the balance at or on the limit that the Polo provides even in stock form. I had extensively driven a friend's Polo 1.6 mpi manual for years and even a 1.2 3cyl diesel Fabia owned by another friend of mine and the way the car shifts and lets you manage its weight at the limit is commendable. Anyone who knows how to extract the most out of his machine will not complain too much.

On a side note, the most interesting thing to take from this test, is how poorly the Jazz performs on track. It comes with pretty decently impressive power and torque figures even in this company in both petrol and diesel guise yet lags behind even the Hyundai. Shows that steering feedback is one thing but it takes a well balanced car to handle properly

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Old 29th May 2016, 09:16   #29
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So in the end, what is the key takeaway of this track test?
This shootout would have made sense if all the cars were completely stock "as is" as driven out of showroom, so that the common man could have related to it better.
Once you start 'modifying' (stuff like tyres, etc) then the possibilities on track performance would be many without any relation to their real world performance.
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Old 29th May 2016, 09:30   #30
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Default re: Overdrive's hatchback track test - Figo 1.5 diesel quickest!

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Originally Posted by aamateen46 View Post
So in the end, what is the key takeaway of this track test?
This shootout would have made sense if all the cars were completely stock "as is" as driven out of showroom, so that the common man could have related to it better.
Once you start 'modifying' (stuff like tyres, etc) then the possibilities on track performance would be many without any relation to their real world performance.
If you are not interested, so be it. For someone like me however, this is a very interesting test. Shows the balance of a car's chassis, outlines their weaknesses in terms of drivertrain components like the gearbox etc. Having same tyres across the range is an important measure of control for unbiased testing on track. Like I have mentioned in my earlier posts, none of the cars come with tyres that have any performance aspirations companies just offer OEM tyres in this price range from a brand that they are partnered up with to get cheap rates nothing more than that. JK Vectras are comparable to all the stock tyres in this segment.

OT: it is funny to see how in India people are actually crying foul over control measures in surgical lap time testing on track. Everywhere else people complain if it is not done. Remember initial shootouts between the LaFerrari and Mclaren P1 where folks were upset that the Mclaren was offered Pirelli P Zero Super Trofeo R tyres while the Ferarri only had the option of P Zero Corsa tyres giving the Mclaren car an unfair advantage, this set enthusiasts and armchair critics into a rage on the internet and later track shootouts were done with the McLaren running on the normal P Zero Corsa tyre. Here it seems to be the other way. Ah! Us practical Indians

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