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Old 30th May 2016, 17:04   #76
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Default re: Overdrive's hatchback track test - Figo 1.5 diesel quickest!

Whatever the results are, it's unnecessary to argue for tires. If this is the standard test procedure, be it. What's the point? Other than showing our possessiveness to our choice of cars?

Stock tires! we might as well ask companies to send their own test drivers, as the vehicles were very extensively driven by them during testing phase, hence they know it best on how to drive it? Or, let them drive their respective cars in their own choice of track as well. As it was there the cars were tested and driven?

Stock cars driven in "stock conditions"?


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Old 30th May 2016, 17:10   #77
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Default re: Overdrive's hatchback track test - Figo 1.5 diesel quickest!

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Originally Posted by Vid6639 View Post
To answer the questions on how it's applicable in the real world. This is how a car behaves at the limit. While you may not experience this on your daily drive but any driving enthusiast will want to know how the car handles at the limit. These situations even occur during an emergency and it is what catches a driver out cause he doesn't know the car at the limit.
+1 Spot on!

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Originally Posted by Vid6639 View Post
The Abarth while shows a lot of stiffness in daily usage, actually suffers from body roll as the stiffness is only initially and once the heavy weight loads the suspension, the car actually rolls and you can see the weight transfer very clearly in the videos. The Abarth appears to have a very long travel suspension to aid ground clearance and this makes the weight move around a lot when cornering hard. This also means the car will not be stable under braking.
I don't think the suspension travel is very long I guess it is just the sheer weight of the car and also if you pop the hood open on the Figo, Polo and Punto, you will find that while all of them have the same engine layout, the Punto's motor is slightly further out over the front axle I would wager that a strut brace and rear sway bar would do wonders for the car


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Originally Posted by Vid6639 View Post
The Polo is definitely setup on the softer side and again due to additional weight this will impact the time especially over chicanes which require quick direction changes. How the car shifts weight and how quickly it recovers is important not just on track but when doing an emergency/evasive swerve on the highway. If you swerve too much and your car is not good at changing directions you are looking at an intimate relationship with the divider. Also, the DSG downshift issue is very very noticable for anyone who drives aggressively, the Polo's gearbox is tuned conservatively for reliability and will not give an aggressive downshift to reduce the drivetrain stress. This is very very noticeable in the ghat sections where you approach a turn and the gearbox is in 3rd but you want second for getting more momentum. The DSG will refuse 2nd if you are carrying more speed and will only give you the shift till you slow down to a lower rpm in third.
Stiffness of suspension is not the sole factor in managing a car's weight shift. There are several other factors to it. I found the Polo to have one of the best chassis on the limit despite its "german build" and consequently high weight, it remains pretty easy to manage the shift of weight with left foot braking at appropriate points. I am not a mechanical expert but I guess what I am trying to say, is that the car is highly responsive. Ofcourse a stiffer suspension setup would have helped it greatly but in the face of this competition, I feel all it needs is a manual gearbox to stay in the fight.

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Originally Posted by Vid6639 View Post
The Elite i20 came as a surprise as it was the most dull to drive on road but did respectably on the track.
While the car lacked any feel, an expert does not require much feedback and can actually take advantage of the very balanced chassis that it comes with.


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Originally Posted by Rahulkool View Post
Abarth has very short suspension travel not long, please drive the car once and you will feel what i am talking about. Body roll is less than many new hatchbacks.
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Originally Posted by Lalvaz View Post
What's the basis of these statements that the car will not be stable under braking? My experience has been totally contrary to that statement.
Yup the Punto is the most involving car to drive out of the bunch there is no argument there. However, driving it fast or cruising down the highway and appreciating its steering feedback, chassis grip, power and strong brakes is one thing, but actually try driving the car on or close to the limit and you will see that it can become a little more difficult to manage. Its sheer weight plays a huge part once we talk about vectors at the limit. It simply begs for adjustable strut brace and rear sway bar. Besides this, its sloppy gearbox and poor gear ratios is an obvious let down.

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Originally Posted by heydj View Post
Either there is lot more cynicism these days or internet has made everyone such a expert that they can professionally claim this test to be questionable.
Unfortunately cars having the wide appeal that they do and our forum being the strictly moderated one that it is, it encourages people to think that by getting admission into the forum, writing within the lines, sticking to 2 smileys per post and getting by, it automatically means that they are the cream of the crop and expert enthusiasts, quality of material and correctness of what we believe or say does not matter anymore Ofcourse I don't mean to say everyone is like that, but that attitude does tend to exist in such an environment where as long as you are writing well it is okay to have any number of "opinions" or beliefs.

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Originally Posted by heydj View Post
I don't think Tbhp reviews are done under such conditions where car is driven to maximum limit or breaking point, instead the review gives good indication of how car will behave for mass market.
Absolutely correct

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Originally Posted by kiku007 View Post
If OD's conclusion that the Figo was 0.1 seconds wasn't enough controversy, I see amusing conclusions that a properly tuned turbo diesel can take on performance petrols

I'll wait till the day all race/rally/touring champion cars, supercars and hypercars replace their "performance petrols" to "properly tuned turbo diesels" because apparently as per this thread turbo diesels are better...
Hahaha people don't bother looking at the major disadvantages that the strong petrol contenders in this test had like the Punto's poor gear ratios, Polo's fussy DSG and Figo's frankly pointless DCT with no performance aspirations whatsoever. Couple that to the fact that very few have actually driven or know how to drive their rides on the limit and are more than satisfied with the turbo-kick that all their diesel cars provide for a limted rpm range, and you will have many such comments

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Originally Posted by kiku007 View Post
And if it helps, add a poll to ask if people have doubts on the credibility of this so called track test.
Oh please no! The last thing we need is such a mindless debate lot of folks with zero experience and preconceived beliefs about certain cars' performance from an aam junta POV will be tempted to argue the credibility of this track shootout merely because they were disappointed with the results. They won't be able to provide any proof for such an opinion either. OD has been very transparent with their test and honestly, having had tons of "quality time" with most of the cars in this test save for the Jazz, I don't find the results too surprising given the track they were tested on.

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Originally Posted by reignofchaos View Post
Its the same story this time as well - A 100HP diesel with a dead steering and so so chassis beating a 145HP track tuned performance petrol by 0.1s. I'd take it with a pinch of salt. I recently drove the Figo and to be honest, after driving the GT TSi, it was rubbish.
Actually driven these cars on the limit to be so sure? Steering feedback has zero importance in lap times. All you need is a predictable chassis on the limit.

Last edited by IshaanIan : 30th May 2016 at 17:12.
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Old 30th May 2016, 17:11   #78
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Default re: Overdrive's hatchback track test - Figo 1.5 diesel quickest!

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Originally Posted by keroo1099 View Post
Sure, it's lovely to know what the car can do at the limit, but how often are you going to be driving at the limit in actual driving conditions. These test make more sense for roads like the Autobhan/Autostade where you can legally drive the car close to the limit. It would be crazy to try and drive at those speed in India, even on our so called expressways.

I too, like driving fast, but I have never exceeded what I felt is my 'limit' on that particular car.

I don't think you meant it, but your statement actually promotes driving faster to explore those limits, and that then becomes a very dangerous tool in the hands of an average driver on today's Indian roads.
You don't need Autobahns as I was nowhere saying drive fast at illegal speeds. You can explore the limits by just driving to the nearest hill station. A drive to Yercaud, Ooty, Kodai, Yelagiri etc and you will realise these characteristics. Ofcourse you need to drive these cars back to back or have experience with a lot of cars to be able to distinguish these characteristics. If not, then your car will be the best and nothing comes close will always be the final conclusion.
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Old 30th May 2016, 17:18   #79
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Default re: Overdrive's hatchback track test - Figo 1.5 diesel quickest!

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Originally Posted by IshaanIan View Post
Actually driven these cars on the limit to be so sure? Steering feedback has zero importance in lap times. All you need is a predictable chassis on the limit.
I know I'd get banned if I mention the speeds I went to so I'd rather not mention them .

I drove it for a whole 100'ish km on NH4 towards Kolar which has lots of curves and the tyres were squealing their heart out so yes I was close to the limit of grip available.

To be honest the chassis felt softer than the one in the Polo. This was the 1.5 VCT however. The diesel will only have more understeer as the engine would be heavier.
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Old 30th May 2016, 17:19   #80
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Default re: Overdrive's hatchback track test - Figo 1.5 diesel quickest!

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Originally Posted by Vid6639 View Post
I haven't driven the Abarth Punto like it should be driven but I agree it's a very stiff setup when driving on street roads. However take a look at the video they have on the TV show.

The Abarth shows a lot of body roll and a LOT of suspension travel. It looks nothing like a short suspension travel. Under braking there was dive and you could see daylight when it was cornering between the wheel and body.

It's stiff initially but looks like it really starts moving when you load up the suspension with the cars weight on heavy cornering.
Please go and take a test drive, i don't think you can judge a cars suspension like that from video. Suspension travel and roll is minimum in Abarth compared to all the hatchbacks i have driven. Again here i am comparing it to other hatchbacks. I don't think a out and out performance hatchback will work very well in Indian roads/conditions as the daily driver, Abarth is just a warm hatch by international standard, maybe not even that. If it was a proper performance hatch i couldn't afford one .

Even with 5 people on board, the suspension on my car didn't sagged a bit or car felt bottoming out on bad roads at highway speeds.

Last edited by Rahulkool : 30th May 2016 at 17:23.
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Old 30th May 2016, 17:27   #81
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Default re: Overdrive's hatchback track test - Figo 1.5 diesel quickest!

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Originally Posted by swiftdiesel View Post
Hmm, yes, Audi R8 V12 TDI. I also remember it winning the gruelling Le Mans usually dominated by petrols.
The car never reached production. It was scrapped by Audi. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audi_R8_Le_Mans_Concept
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Old 30th May 2016, 17:30   #82
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Default re: Overdrive's hatchback track test - Figo 1.5 diesel quickest!

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Originally Posted by reignofchaos View Post
I know I'd get banned if I mention the speeds I went to so I'd rather not mention them .

I drove it for a whole 100'ish km on NH4 towards Kolar which has lots of curves and the tyres were squealing their heart out so yes I was close to the limit of grip available.
Lol having had plenty of experience on the track, I can tell you that it is not about the speeds you touch or how much you get the tyres to squeal. Driving a car on the limit involves a lot of practice and is more a dance of its weight and traction with consistently high speeds through every scenario rather than a show of its grip or top speed. Without knowing the techniques of left foot braking to prevent unsettling on undulations, provide better front wheel traction and manage shift of weight coupled with rev-matching, it is impossible to actually drive the car at its limits. These skills take years to hone and perfect and I have not seen more than a handful of drivers with no track experience, that know these techniques and no-one that can actually admirably utilize these skills close to the limit without atleast several hundred hours of hooning about on a track. You can reach 95% of the car's potential but unlocking that last 5% is crucial to actually feel what it's like on the limit. Don't mean to offend you in anyway, I have witnessed many enthusiastic drivers on the streets that make similar claims and most of the time I refrain from commenting, I respect your opinion and I'm sure it was fun driving these machines on the highway never fails to please, just wanted to share information that's all

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Originally Posted by reignofchaos View Post
To be honest the chassis felt softer than the one in the Polo. This was the 1.5 VCT however. The diesel will only have more understeer as the engine would be heavier.
Yes it is softer however striking the right balance between stifness and flexibility has always been key to maintaining control close to the limit. If it is all just stiff, the car becomes temperamental and could lose grip and traction in a snap. That said all the cars could be a lot stiffer to perform better. I too feel the Polo is a better car on the limit absolutely easy to predict its behavior and stay on top of it. Had the Polo and petrol Figo been offered with manual gearboxes, it would be a fight between the two for top place IMO. A battle between the sheer power-to-weight ratio of the 1.5 liter petrol Figo, and the amazingly balanced chassis of the Polo.

Last edited by IshaanIan : 30th May 2016 at 17:35.
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Old 30th May 2016, 17:37   #83
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Default re: Overdrive's hatchback track test - Figo 1.5 diesel quickest!

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Originally Posted by swiftdiesel View Post
Hmm, yes, Audi R8 V12 TDI. I also remember it winning the gruelling Le Mans usually dominated by petrols.
I might be wrong here but as far as i remember the reason behind that was frugal nature of diesel engine and lesser no of pit stops required in the race.
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Old 30th May 2016, 17:42   #84
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Default re: Overdrive's hatchback track test - Figo 1.5 diesel quickest!

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Originally Posted by Rahulkool View Post
Please go and take a test drive, i don't think you can judge a cars suspension like that from video.
I was making a guess based on a short test drive and the video. I couldn't sample the body roll as I didn't drive it on track and don't have access to the car or a track to tell you 100%. However you can definitely feel the weight in the Abarth. It's not what I call a nimble car. Good cruiser for sure but not a nimble car is what was my impression.

Also, the article mentioned that the Punto had wheelspin issues on the inside wheels. This points to the inside tyres when cornering not having load causing them to spin. Which basically means a soft suspension that resulted in the weight shifting to the outside wheels.

Quote:
Suspension travel and roll is minimum in Abarth compared to all the hatchbacks i have driven. Again here i am comparing it to other hatchbacks.
I am guessing you are saying this as you have driven the Abarth and all the other hatchbacks personally on a race track. In which case I will then agree with you.

If not then I'll stick with my opinion and the video which showed body roll.

Ofcourse you are free to disagree with my opinion.

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Even with 5 people on board, the suspension on my car didn't sagged a bit or car felt bottoming out on bad roads at highway speeds.
Even my Ecosport doesn't sag with 5 people + luggage and has a stiff suspension which is painful on bad roads. But the car has plenty of body roll when pushed and is a handful.

Last edited by Vid6639 : 30th May 2016 at 17:49.
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Old 30th May 2016, 17:52   #85
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Default re: Overdrive's hatchback track test - Figo 1.5 diesel quickest!

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Originally Posted by IshaanIan View Post
Lol having had plenty of experience on the track, I can tell you that it is not about the speeds you touch or how much you get the tyres to squeal. Driving a car on the limit involves a lot of practice and is more a dance of its weight and traction with consistently high speeds through every scenario rather than a show of its grip or top speed. Without knowing the techniques of left foot braking to prevent unsettling on undulations, provide better front wheel traction and manage shift of weight coupled with rev-matching, it is impossible to actually drive the car at its limits. These skills take years to hone and perfect and I have not seen more than a handful of drivers with no track experience, that know these techniques and no-one that can actually admirably utilize these skills close to the limit without atleast several hundred hours of hooning about on a track. You can reach 95% of the car's potential but unlocking that last 5% is crucial to actually feel what it's like on the limit. Don't mean to offend you in anyway, I have witnessed many enthusiastic drivers on the streets that make similar claims and most of the time I refrain from commenting, I respect your opinion and I'm sure it was fun driving these machines on the highway never fails to please, just wanted to share information that's all

Yes it is softer however striking the right balance between stifness and flexibility has always been key to maintaining control close to the limit. If it is all just stiff, the car becomes temperamental and could lose grip and traction in a snap. That said all the cars could be a lot stiffer to perform better. I too feel the Polo is a better car on the limit absolutely easy to predict its behavior and stay on top of it. Had the Polo and petrol Figo been offered with manual gearboxes, it would be a fight between the two for top place IMO. A battle between the sheer power-to-weight ratio of the 1.5 liter petrol Figo, and the amazingly balanced chassis of the Polo.

I completely agree to what you said - however please don't think I'm a novice at track driving. I've done it multiple times at MMST and was a regular once until I got married . I know when the car is gonna lose grip cos I've spun multiple cars - some do it in a snap as you say while others let you know gently that they are gonna give up. The ones that snap will always be harder to predict and push. This is the reason why the sports cars are designed to be predictable. If they are not predictable, they are not great track tools.

If there were a track in Bangalore, I'd have taken it there but the highway is the best we have. Finally you buy the car to drive on roads and all these are first road cars. If they were track cars, they would be built with a completely different philosophy. You are better off with a stripped esteem than any of these if all you wish to do is drive on track and it will run circles around this.

However the point I'm trying to prove is this - a road car that has a good chassis with very basic mods and a significantly stiffer suspension is still a great track tool. Take a look at the Etios for example. With a simple change to suspension and brakes, it laps MMST in 2:05 which is close to many supercars. However is it the best road car out there? Probably not!

So anytime a track test is done on bone stock cars, there are a million things that can change with some basic mods and the car would lap tens of seconds quicker with that. I'm sure that the slowest of the bunch - the Jazz could be made to go 5-6 seconds faster than the fastest in the bunch with basic mods. So take these results with a pinch of salt - they are mostly meaningless.

Last edited by reignofchaos : 30th May 2016 at 17:56.
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Old 30th May 2016, 17:55   #86
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Default re: Overdrive's hatchback track test - Figo 1.5 diesel quickest!

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Originally Posted by Vid6639 View Post
If not then I'll stick with my opinion and the video which showed body roll.

Ofcourse you are free to disagree with my opinion.



Even my Ecosport doesn't sag with 5 people + luggage and has a stiff suspension which is painful on bad roads. But the car has plenty of body roll when pushed and is a handful.
The kind of body roll one experiences on a race track can very rarely be simulated on street use. Therefore most guys here refuse to believe that the Punto can have that kind of body roll. Just because a vehicle has stiff suspension doesn't mean it won't have body roll.
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Old 30th May 2016, 17:56   #87
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Default re: Overdrive's hatchback track test - Figo 1.5 diesel quickest!

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Originally Posted by reignofchaos View Post
However the point I'm trying to prove is this - a road car that has a good chassis with very basic mods and a significantly stiffer suspension is still a great track tool. Take a look at the Etios for example. With a simple change to suspension and brakes, it laps MMST in 2:05 which is close to many supercars. However is it the best road car out there? Probably not!

So anytime a track test is done on bone stock cars, there are a million things that can change with some basic mods and the car would lap tens of seconds quicker with that. I'm sure that the slowest of the bunch - the Jazz could be made to go 5-6 seconds faster than the fastest in the bunch with basic mods.
Sorry for assuming then Yup absolutely agree with you there. And Etios is a brilliant example but I suppose it is also relevant to note the inherent potential that a car has on track as well
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Old 30th May 2016, 18:14   #88
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Default re: Overdrive's hatchback track test - Figo 1.5 diesel quickest!

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Originally Posted by Vid6639 View Post
You don't need Autobahns as I was nowhere saying drive fast at illegal speeds. You can explore the limits by just driving to the nearest hill station. A drive to Yercaud, Ooty, Kodai, Yelagiri etc and you will realise these characteristics. Ofcourse you need to drive these cars back to back or have experience with a lot of cars to be able to distinguish these characteristics.
I don't undersatnd what you mean? Are you saying explore the handling/accelerating/braking characteristics on a ghat section where you shouldn't be doing more than what 40 tops, especially going down? anything more would be suicidal, or going quickly on a nice twisty section of road where the legal speed limit would probably drop to 50-60. I am certain you would have to go significantly quicker to test the limits of any of the cars available today.

I have driven umpteen times up and down Sigur and to Chickmagalur, but have never needed to get anywhere near the limits of any of the cars I have used, and still be a quick but careful driver.

Most of us don't have the option of driving multiple cars over a resonably long period of time to make that judgement, so I guess ignorance is bliss.

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If not, then your car will be the best and nothing comes close will always be the final conclusion.
Not really, it then just becomes ego issue for some.

Cheers.
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Old 30th May 2016, 18:14   #89
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Default re: Overdrive's hatchback track test - Figo 1.5 diesel quickest!

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Originally Posted by Rahulkool View Post
Abarth has very short suspension travel not long, please drive the car once and you will feel what i am talking about. Body roll is less than many new hatchbacks.
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Originally Posted by Vid6639 View Post
I haven't driven the Abarth Punto like it should be driven but I agree it's a very stiff setup when driving on street roads. However take a look at the video they have on the TV show.

The Abarth shows a lot of body roll and a LOT of suspension travel. It looks nothing like a short suspension travel. Under braking there was dive and you could see daylight when it was cornering between the wheel and body.
......
On street roads teh Punto is still going to be unbeatable but you can clearly see in that video that the car had body roll issues on that track.

With so much being discussed about the body roll, I thought I will quote something that was posted in our forum before the Abarth Punto was reviewed officially. It just goes to show that on the track the body roll was quiet evident then and not much has changed when the car was launched.

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Originally Posted by .anshuman View Post
Since the car is still being worked on, I was not allowed to drive it, but I got an opportunity to ride in it as a passenger. The acceleration is really strong. On the straights, it easily passed the 170 kph mark despite being driven relatively easier and overall, it had ample power to justify the Abarth tag. The body lean and massive amount of roll, however, felt similar to the regular Punto - just not right for a car with an Abarth tag. I hope this is not the final version. The Fiat MD had mentioned a stiffer suspension for the Abarth Punto, I just hope it's going to be much stiffer than this and lower too.

I agree that the car Anshuman had rode in as a passenger was not the final version, it does seem that not much has been done to the suspension after that event and the roll does really show up when the car is driven hard although for normal use on public roads, it may keep most users quite happy.
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Old 30th May 2016, 18:30   #90
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Default re: Overdrive's hatchback track test - Figo 1.5 diesel quickest!

Is this news something to do with this:
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...-campaign.html (Ford rolls out a 200-crore brand transformation campaign)

On the other hand, I think the results are fairly possible.
And kudos to Overdrive for doing these comparisons.
At least the fence sitters who are confused by the "perceived notions" can start thinking with a clear brain.
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