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Old 30th May 2016, 18:35   #91
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Default re: Overdrive's hatchback track test - Figo 1.5 diesel quickest!

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Originally Posted by vibbs View Post
With so much being discussed about the body roll, I thought I will quote something that was posted in our forum before the Abarth Punto was reviewed officially. It just goes to show that on the track the body roll was quiet evident then and not much has changed when the car was launched.
Maybe expectations are on the lines of "Abarth" tag. I am sure the suspension on Indian Abarth is not as tuned as the other real Abarth(maybe he was comparing to Abarth 500). I have driven the Punto 90HP lot of times on highway as well as in city(both the new one with increased GC and older one). The difference between Abarth and 90HP is like day and night in terms of suspension. 90HP is still not as soft as i20 or Brezza(recently drove brezza so mentioning) but difference is massive. Drive both cars back to back and you will know.
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Old 30th May 2016, 19:34   #92
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Default re: Overdrive's hatchback track test - Figo 1.5 diesel quickest!

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Originally Posted by keroo1099 View Post
I don't undersatnd what you mean? Are you saying explore the handling/accelerating/braking characteristics on a ghat section where you shouldn't be doing more than what 40 tops, especially going down? anything more would be suicidal, or going quickly on a nice twisty section of road where the legal speed limit would probably drop to 50-60. I am certain you would have to go significantly quicker to test the limits of any of the cars available today.

I have driven umpteen times up and down Sigur and to Chickmagalur, but have never needed to get anywhere near the limits of any of the cars I have used, and still be a quick but careful driver.

Most of us don't have the option of driving multiple cars over a resonably long period of time to make that judgement, so I guess ignorance is bliss.
I agree with Vid6639 that you do not need autobahns to explore the limits of your car. It is not about top speed as much as it is about keeping a consistent pace using every skill at your disposal. It is quite fun and although I have exercised it at unmentionable situations, I would still recommend not trying to do so without any prior experience. You do have outlets like hill-climbs that are organized once in a while to showcase that talent but I agree, that to 95% of the people, it does not matter, and even 4.5% of the remaining may seem enthusiastic but still don't know anything about limits either yet such tests remain relevant. Although not as much as regular road tests.
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Old 30th May 2016, 19:48   #93
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Default re: Overdrive's hatchback track test - Figo 1.5 diesel quickest!

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Originally Posted by IshaanIan View Post
I agree with Vid6639 that you do not need autobahns to explore the limits of your car. It is not about top speed as much as it is about keeping a consistent pace using every skill at your disposal. It is quite fun and although I have exercised it at unmentionable situations, I would still recommend not trying to do so without any prior experience. You do have outlets like hill-climbs that are organized once in a while to showcase that talent but I agree, that to 95% of the people, it does not matter, and even 4.5% of the remaining may seem enthusiastic but still don't know anything about limits either yet such tests remain relevant. Although not as much as regular road tests.
I absolutely agree with your statement about trying to keep a consistant pace being fun, and in my case it's more fun than driving on the limit which needed complete concentration.

Hey, I have done my fair share of driving close to the limit in my early years on nicely modified cars, but have figured out that it's not worth it. The law of averages will eventually catch up with you.
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Old 30th May 2016, 21:34   #94
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Default re: Overdrive's hatchback track test - Figo 1.5 diesel quickest!

It is unfortunate that Toyota have pulled the plug on the Liva TRD. The 1.5l petrol engine, though not a rev happy motor, was plenty fun on the Etios sedan. It has a strong bottom end and is very responsive. I still recall the day I was assisting a colleague with his new car purchase. He called for a Etios petrol. I was not expecting much. All it took was a few hundred meters and I was wowed by the response of the engine. Reminded me of the old Ford 1.6l Rocam.

I wonder where a car like the Liva diesel would slot among this crowd. The D4-D has a lot going for it. I have never driven a Liva with this engine. Those Uber trips have left me super impressed with the poke from this engine.
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Old 30th May 2016, 22:03   #95
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Default re: Overdrive's hatchback track test - Figo 1.5 diesel quickest!

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Originally Posted by vibbs View Post
I agree that the car Anshuman had rode in as a passenger was not the final version, it does seem that not much has been done to the suspension after that event and the roll does really show up when the car is driven hard although for normal use on public roads, it may keep most users quite happy.
Apart from this, there was a bigger concern on track, which also gets a mention in this Overdrive report that is lack of side bolstering on the seats. I had to cling on to the grab handle, I could imagine how uncomfortable it would have been for the driver(trying not to end up on co driver's lap and still steering the car).

I wouldn't doubt Aditya Patel's abilities on a track, he was a trainer on many of the Audi track events I have been to.

And I surely doubt the Fiat India's jugaad team, which ruined the Multijet experience earlier and now this hotchpotch Abarth. Nothing wrong with the car at all, I would still pick desi Abarth Punto over the other cars mentioned for a trackday, but it is un-deserving of the Abarth badge. They could have called it Abarth edition or something, just like BMW has M Kits. How would you feel if BMW starts selling 320d M kitted car as M3 for India?

With a good Suspension job, a LSD and well bolstered seats this car would be awesome on a race track.
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Old 31st May 2016, 10:41   #96
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Default re: Overdrive's hatchback track test - Figo 1.5 diesel quickest!

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Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR View Post

Can you please tell me where it's mentioned in the OD report that the gearbox was the major limiting factor? I'm guessing I missed something.
Well CrAzY dRiVeR, it is not mentioned or specified in the OD report but this is my personal opinion, and that is the reason I mentioned 'I Guess' before posting this.

I have driven the Abarth Punto and before I get piled on by "FIATians", I agree that probably I did not drive the car in the true manner it is meant to be. I did not rev it to redline, nor did I take it through any twisties. But surely, whatever the short spin I had, I could not get the gearshifts right and neither could I get into the right posture.

Anyways, I don't want to go away from the topic here and just believe that Punto released by Fiat in India is really not a True Abarth.

Again I am not intending to mean that its lesser than other hot hatches or not worth the money, I think its not really worth the badge ABARTH!!

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Originally Posted by .anshuman View Post

They could have called it Abarth edition or something, just like BMW has M Kits. How would you feel if BMW starts selling 320d M kitted car as M3 for India?

With a good Suspension job, a LSD and well bolstered seats this car would be awesome on a race track.
+10 anshuman

IMO. these lines you have posted are bang on and must really address the many doubts/allegations/blame-games that is now 7 pages long

Last edited by Vik0728 : 31st May 2016 at 10:43.
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Old 31st May 2016, 10:58   #97
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Default re: Overdrive's hatchback track test - Figo 1.5 diesel quickest!

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Originally Posted by .anshuman View Post
And I surely doubt the Fiat India's jugaad team, which ruined the Multijet experience earlier and now this hotchpotch Abarth. Nothing wrong with the car at all, I would still pick desi Abarth Punto over the other cars mentioned for a trackday, but it is un-deserving of the Abarth badge. They could have called it Abarth edition or something, just like BMW has M Kits. How would you feel if BMW starts selling 320d M kitted car as M3 for India?
Your comparison is flawed. The M3 has a V8 where as 320D comes with a 4 cylinder diesel engine, if you ask me that car is not even worth of M kit considering what is a "M" in BMW. M3 has different suspension, brakes, chassis components, GB and more. BMW is diluting the M brand more with calling them M kit.

The Abarth is just little beefed up version of fiat cars, some are more madder than the other. There were international Punto Abarth which came in same tune(there was one with 140bhp too?) as India Abarth with the same engine and GB.

I don't care if the car worth Abarth badge or not. But please tell me one car in hatchback segment which has more power(more than 50%), lowered stiff suspension, all around disk brake, fabulous steering wheel. There are lot of RS, Sports and so called TRD versions. Abarth is not a car made for track, its a regular hatchback with little more of everything.
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Old 31st May 2016, 12:24   #98
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Default re: Overdrive's hatchback track test - Figo 1.5 diesel quickest!

If we really wanted the Abarth deal, then it would not have been affordable. Quite like what is going to happen when VW bring in their Polo GTI.

The other problem with a full blown Abarth is that it will be almost undriveable on our roads. Fiat claim that the Abarth is already lowered and rides on stiffer springs. Quite a number of FM's who have driven the car, have said, that the ride is more firm to a stock Punto. I am not sure if the car really rides lower than a stock Punto cause when you look at an Abarth, it does not seem so. Lets say Fiats claim is true, any lower and your going to hit even the smallest of speed humps. Do you really want that?

From the list, the only car I have pushed to the limit is the VW GT TSI. This car does get nervous if you are pushing above the ton. The suspension can't cope and the steering does not really talk to you which makes matters worse. I will say that the EPS does rank among the best there is from the segment. This car isn't a GT in the true sense of it though.

I have limited experience with the cars here. I am curious to know which car rolls the least and offers the best in terms of control.

What Fiat India have given us is a little bit of the Abarth flavor, which I think, is awesome. I salute them for even introducing this variant or brand, when they know for sure, that they are probably going to sell <100 units a year (High hopes). I mean why bother.
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Old 31st May 2016, 13:06   #99
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Default re: Overdrive's hatchback track test - Figo 1.5 diesel quickest!

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Originally Posted by Rahulkool View Post
I don't care if the car worth Abarth badge or not. But please tell me one car in hatchback segment which has more power(more than 50%), lowered stiff suspension, all around disk brake, fabulous steering wheel. There are lot of RS, Sports and so called TRD versions. Abarth is not a car made for track, its a regular hatchback with little more of everything.
I think this thread is is for discussing how these cars behaved on track. I'm not sure why some members are trying to defend or justify how the cars they own behave. Abarth maybe the sportiest and the best on road but here we are discussing what happened to it on track.

We can say that Fiat softened the suspension for Indian roads and did XYZ. But who cares, the discussion here is for the track test.

Why are you guys trying to say there is no other car with 50% more power and all round disc brakes and ABCD like this in India. Or show me any other car on the road that gives you 145BHP and has steering feel like a Ferrari.

If you want to still justify there are other threads like the Abarth Punto thread. Let's stick to what happened on the track here, please.
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Old 31st May 2016, 13:28   #100
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Default re: Overdrive's hatchback track test - Figo 1.5 diesel quickest!

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Originally Posted by Vid6639 View Post
Let's stick to what happened on the track here, please.
+1 for this. The discussion on this thread is going in circles now with absolutely no scientific or other proof being given to ridicule this test.

This test by Overdrive was done by keeping lot of variables same - tires, track, driver, weather conditions, and quite possible same fuel payload.

On a side note someone in my office read one of the comments here about Overdrive results vs Tbhp review. My 2-cents:

Lets not compare Tbhp reviews to this test to debunk these results or the reviews. Tbhp reviews are done by normal people with eye for detail. That does not mean they will drive the car at 150 kmph to see whether there is body roll or not. Hence when Overdrive says Abarth has body roll accept that and not risk you own life in finding out which review is right, both are under different circumstances.
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Old 31st May 2016, 14:01   #101
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Default re: Overdrive's hatchback track test - Figo 1.5 diesel quickest!

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Originally Posted by heydj View Post
+1 for this. The discussion on this thread is going in circles now with absolutely no scientific or other proof being given to ridicule this test.

This test by Overdrive was done by keeping lot of variables same - tires, track, driver, weather conditions, and quite possible same fuel payload.

On a side note someone in my office read one of the comments here about Overdrive results vs Tbhp review. My 2-cents:

Lets not compare Tbhp reviews to this test to debunk these results or the reviews. Tbhp reviews are done by normal people with eye for detail. That does not mean they will drive the car at 150 kmph to see whether there is body roll or not. Hence when Overdrive says Abarth has body roll accept that and not risk you own life in finding out which review is right, both are under different circumstances.
I completely agree. The t-bhp reviews done for all these cars were on public roads with stock tyres and covered how these cars behaved at road speeds. These reviews do not entail any visits to the test track.

I feel it is essential to drive cars back to back to be able to compare them properly. The overdrive team had the luxury of driving all the cars on the same track under "standardised" conditions. Very few people here would have done this with these cars on this forum. So, having driven all these cars back to back on the same track this magazine would be in a good position to proffer an opinion about the on track dynamics of these cars. Instead of endlessly debating what overdrive did wrong with their test we should try to accept the results achieved and discuss why certain cars achieved higher/ lower than expected lap times.
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Old 31st May 2016, 14:28   #102
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Default re: Overdrive's hatchback track test - Figo 1.5 diesel quickest!

I wonder what will happen to this post if another well established magazine, say Autocar does a similar test using another professional driver and comes up with different results.
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Old 31st May 2016, 14:34   #103
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Default re: Overdrive's hatchback track test - Figo 1.5 diesel quickest!

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Originally Posted by keroo1099 View Post
I wonder what will happen to this post if another well established magazine, say Autocar does a similar test using another professional driver and comes up with different results.
Driving dynamics change driver to driver hence results in terms of lap times should differ. Look at F1 racing and especially Ferrari, it has for years employed two drivers for identical cars but both of them get different results.
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Old 31st May 2016, 14:51   #104
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Default re: Overdrive's hatchback track test - Figo 1.5 diesel quickest!

This test is actually an eye opener.
It shows us how cars which are so good on public roads and highways, may not be the best when it come to a tight track.

Firstly, the clear message is that Manual Transmissions are still the best, when it comes to track work.

Secondly, it shows us the importance of tyres.
There are some cars which tend to work the tyres more,while some are kinder to tyres.
Standardizing using inferior tyres in a track test can hurt the cars whose chassis and engine power delivery style depends MORE on the tyres than the others.

The stock Apollo Alnacs which are standard on the Punto Abarth can't cope up with the power on tap. The Vectras would be even worse.
Hence, the Punto, inspite of having big time power, cant simply put down all of it's power in time. The same is mentioned in the OD report as well, they are simply short shifting to avoid wheel spin. And that is a shame. They haven't really utilized all of those 145 horses.
Who knows, it might have been a different result altogether, had they got some sticky michelins or yokohamas as standardized tyres.


To further bolster the point, as an analogy, lets take a car say Alto. It will not make much difference to the acceleration of the alto if the stock tyres are replaced by good yokos or michelins.
But if we put genuinely bad tyres in a car which makes big power like Punto Abarth or monster things like a turbo-ed Supra or a super car, then the difference in the results will be huge.
Just imagine the scene, a turbo-ed Supra in all it's glory, with JK tyre Vectras!
With such tyres the Supra could end up to be barely faster than the Figo. So, under that circumstance, should we call the supra slow?
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Old 31st May 2016, 14:52   #105
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Default re: Overdrive's hatchback track test - Figo 1.5 diesel quickest!

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Originally Posted by heydj View Post
Driving dynamics change driver to driver hence results in terms of lap times should differ. Look at F1 racing and especially Ferrari, it has for years employed two drivers for identical cars but both of them get different results.
Your last line succinctly explains what I was implying.
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