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Old 15th June 2016, 14:10   #16
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Default Re: BMW imports 725LD: 4 cylinder diesel for Delhi NCR?

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Originally Posted by abhishek46 View Post
Correct.

So, they have to
1: change from transverse to longitudinal mount.
2: Change the turbo's and some components and do the overall tuning for even more low end torque.

The RAV4 2.0 makes 310NM at 1600-2200rpm.
The Innova 2.4 makes 343NM at 1400-2800rpm.


The above looks like a deficit, however,
The engine in the RAV4 2.0 is a full square configuration 1:1 bore:stroke.
The engine in the Innova 2.4 is slightly oversquare 1.02:1.

Undersquare engines are better suited for torque, so the RAV4's 2.0 can still be tuned for even more low down torque.

Is changing from Transverse to Longitudinal such a engineering challenge?(I dont know, Just asking)
Yes. It is an engineering challenge because of the mounting points and the layout of components of the engine.

Firstly, the mounting points will be different. And adding extension plates to retrofit is just a "jugaad" solution as if forces analysis is not done properly, it might give away a lot of vibrations and in worst case scenario, the plates will shear off and fall down.

Secondly, what about the layout and adaptability of components. I haven't done research but I am assuming that the gearbox is different between RAV4 and Innova. You need an adaptor to mate the new engine and gearbox. And so, a new clutch has to be designed.

And the big question. What about the manifold routing. You will have to design all the manifold together. And what if the turbo is mounted differently. They will have to virtually design all the components in the engine bay from ground up which is the same as designing a new car. All for what? The revenue stream gained cannot match the development costs incurred. So, toyota definitely wont do an engine swap.

A more sensible option would be to apply tata strategy that they used long ago. Use the same engine but with smaller bore to work around the problem. If I remember correctly, that is how their 1.4 diesel came from the 2.2 diesel. Correct me if I am wrong.
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Old 15th June 2016, 14:19   #17
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Default BMW imports 725LD: 4 cylinder diesel for Delhi NCR?

I think the 2ltr Diesel engine 7 series will be launched keeping the hotel buyers in mind. Launching the 725ld at an attractive price will help boost sales by attracting taxi sales of 5 star hotels.

Last edited by dean5545 : 15th June 2016 at 14:20.
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Old 15th June 2016, 15:03   #18
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To continue and compete on the "All Show and No Go" theme Mercedes in all probability will soon introduce the S180D.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ajmat View Post
Audi could win this round if they introduce a A8L 1.2 MPI

Last edited by GTO : 16th June 2016 at 11:02. Reason: Merging both your one-liner posts
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Old 15th June 2016, 16:46   #19
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Default Re: BMW imports 725LD: 4 cylinder diesel for Delhi NCR?

Bmw is doing what works best when the law is arbitrarily changed without any thought to facts but feel good activism. A four cylinder engine in a large car consumes and pollutes more, case in point is the new volvo xc90 which doesn't have anything larger than a 4 and has lower fuel economy than a V6 engine Q7 (that's on a review drive, imagine how much worse it'll be with a full load) .

The latest 7 has the same architecture that underpins the Rolls-Royce, high tech carbon fiber frame and aero to match, bmw has the engineering capability to pull it off, this is a luxury barge and the only thing that needs to be right is the nvh. To please the badge conscious, they can rename the range, so the 25 becomes 28 or 30. The owner can lounge in the back while the driver wrings the engine to the limit.
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Old 15th June 2016, 17:46   #20
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Default Re: BMW imports 725LD: 4 cylinder diesel for Delhi NCR?

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Originally Posted by Sahil View Post
I don't think this a good move at all. The 725LD does not exist in the line up anywhere in the world and for good reason- it's too underpowered for a car this big. Launching inferior products just for India is not cool.
I did some reading - the BMW 325d with 215 hp is just 0.6 seconds slower to 100 than the 330d, both engines being the same as we are discussing. Further, the above research suggests a power bump to 231 hp on the new -25d engine. This, coupled with reduced weight should keep the 7 sprightly. I also expect the facelift of the current 7 to launch with this engine in Europe whenever it is due. I think this is proactive from BMW. Proactive is something BMW hasn't been recently. New top management is doing the right thing.

Do you think that hotel fleet owners or company car users will care? Will also be kinder to the environment.
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Old 15th June 2016, 18:10   #21
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Default Re: BMW imports 725LD: 4 cylinder diesel for Delhi NCR?

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Originally Posted by VeyronSuperSprt View Post
Audi could win this round if they introduce a A8L 1.2 MPI
Any cost savings there would probably be negated by having to provide a push-start crew with each car, I doubt the 1.2 MPI can get an A8L rolling on its own steam!
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Old 15th June 2016, 18:15   #22
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Default Re: BMW imports 725LD: 4 cylinder diesel for Delhi NCR?

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Originally Posted by VeyronSuperSprt View Post
Audi could win this round if they introduce a A8L 1.2 MPI
. The group of people who tend to buy such cars will be mostly chauffeured driven and I guess it wont be a sore point for the sales. Moreover, This shows up the proactive attitude of BMW who wants to improve the sales chart in India.

It gives the customers to have a choice to decide from the existing line-up. If BMW launches this model with all the electronic gadgetry, I am sure that it'll be success in India.
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Old 15th June 2016, 19:18   #23
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Default Re: BMW imports 725LD: 4 cylinder diesel for Delhi NCR?

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Originally Posted by karan561 View Post

IMO this car wont be slow the way we are thinking it to be. My estimate is keeping in mind the power figures of the new generation B series diesel engines, 725LD will be as fast or faster than the current F10 520d (which is the most sold 5'er in India).
+1 Karan

The X5 is also sold with the 218 hp version if this engine in FWD configuration. That car weighs at least 200 kg more than the 7 and reports 8+ seconds to 100. With all the weight savings on the G12 7 series, downsizing is definitely here to stay!

Last edited by carmayogi : 15th June 2016 at 19:20. Reason: Fixing typo
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Old 15th June 2016, 20:33   #24
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Default Re: BMW imports 725LD: 4 cylinder diesel for Delhi NCR?

For every segment, there is a customer who is stretching his budget to make a purchase and a good trade-off such as this is always welcome. As long as you have a good transmission, power is not such a big deal within the city given our crazy traffic. I wouldn't worry so much about the power but BMW 2L diesels are relatively noisy and they get worse if flogged - not cool for 7 series.
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Old 15th June 2016, 20:42   #25
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Default Re: BMW imports 725LD: 4 cylinder diesel for Delhi NCR?

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Originally Posted by carmayogi View Post
+1 Karan

The X5 is also sold with the 218 hp version if this engine in FWD configuration. That car weighs at least 200 kg more than the 7 and reports 8+ seconds to 100. With all the weight savings on the G12 7 series, downsizing is definitely here to stay!
There has been no FWD X5 ever sold in the entire world If you can find one do let me know.

The X5 has standard rear wheel drive( RWD) and optional AWD.
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Old 15th June 2016, 23:27   #26
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Default Re: BMW imports 725LD: 4 cylinder diesel for Delhi NCR?

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Originally Posted by abhishek46 View Post
Toyota has the resources as well.
They have 2 litre engines in the EU in use in vehicles like Avensis and RAV4.
That engine you're talking about is for longitudinal engine mount positions. Mounting that in the transverse direction for the Ladder frame chassis of the Innova and Fortuner is a big task.

If they don't manufacture that particular engine in Thailand or India, it's not going to be worthwhile importing it for a car that might sell 800 odd units in that particular region. They may rather offer the petrol engines, which are readily available and are continuously used in all models sold in SE Asian markets.
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Old 16th June 2016, 02:14   #27
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Default Re: BMW imports 725LD: 4 cylinder diesel for Delhi NCR?

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Originally Posted by VeyronSuperSprt View Post
Audi could win this round if they introduce a A8L 1.2 MPI

Extra boost button will be marked as A/C
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Old 16th June 2016, 11:09   #28
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Default Re: BMW imports 725LD: 4 cylinder diesel for Delhi NCR?

The compact petrol cars were killed by the small car rule. Max length of 4 meters made them aesthetically handicapped and the sub 1.2 L rule took the fun out of them. They all became commuter cars rather than an object of desire.

Looks like that phenomenon is going to spread to the upper segments now.

I do hope manufacturers look at bringing proper petrol engines with hybrid power than these puny diesel motors. They will always be highly strained under load and comfort (NVH) will go out of the window along with efficiency and cleanliness (emissions).

The only benefit I see of this is that BMW might be able to fit a full size spare wheel inside the engine room now.
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Old 16th June 2016, 11:10   #29
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Default Re: BMW imports 725LD: 4 cylinder diesel for Delhi NCR?

Mod Note: Please discuss Toyota engines on a Toyota thread. No more off-topic posts please.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sahil View Post
A typical 7 series buyer isn't really an average joe-These are well travelled and well informed customers who care about the the badge and most might not be comfortable spending their hard earned 1cr on a model that does not exist in BMW's global portfolio.
Very good point. However, the typical 7-Series or S-Class buyer is one who upgraded from a 5-Series or E-Class. Not much of a difference between the two customer profiles, except an increase in business turnover or the person's age.

4-Cylinder E-Class & 5-Series outsell their 6-cylinder variants in a 9:1 ratio. Even that lame & weak E200 petrol had so many buyers at one time.

The chauffeur-driven elite don't care about the number of cylinders under the hood. They only want to arrive in 'style' and 'luxury'. If they can get the same car 10 lakhs cheaper (with 2 cylinders less), that's the option they'll pick. To keep them happy, BMW has smartly badged this upcoming variant as 725, not 720.
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Old 16th June 2016, 18:42   #30
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Default Re: BMW imports 725LD: 4 cylinder diesel for Delhi NCR?

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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
The chauffeur-driven elite don't care about the number of cylinders under the hood.
Correct. Even if it has the 0-100 timing of a road roller.
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