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Old 13th July 2016, 15:07   #16
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Default Re: Renault India builds a safer Kwid for Brazil - 130 kilos heavier!

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Originally Posted by lurker View Post
We need a **Consumers Consortium** that can buy all these budget car models right off the dealer and strip their sheet metal completely bare to see what structural supports are present underneath. This should be made available to the public and should completely unveil what manufacturers are doing to their cars and what is the reality behind the facade.

Such an initiative is not very expensive, though chorporate sponsors may back off initially, the funds needed to buy base versions of economy models of 5 or so brands should not be more than 20 lakh at the most. It is doable.
Hmmm, lets say that we do form a "Consumers Consortium", will our finding of deficiencies lead to any remedial measures by these companies???

We've seen how they have blatantly ignored the GNCAP results, even though that organization enjoys a lot of credibility and invests significant amounts in detailed crash tests.

I'm a MSIL customer and I'm looking at buying the S Cross or Ciaz. Have written to MSIL asking for the ARAI crash test report. No luck. All they say is we're fully compliant with Indian laws, which is not saying much, because there are really no laws worth mentioning, and whats worse is that there is no enforcement of whatever laws are there.

In India, unless there is a reform in our legal system, a manufacturer who knowingly scrimps on safety features is not going to be punished, and that's the sad reality. That's why Harish compromised with Skoda inspite of having documentary evidence of their wrongdoing. That's why many of us refuse to go to a court in India.

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Originally Posted by Ravenavi
When was the last time a customer put his foot down on safety for his chosen car and threatened to walk into the nearest Ford outlet to pick up a car with 6 airbags by paying a lakh-2 lakhs more?
It happens more often than you think. I think all Volvo customers pay a premium for safer cars. Many people here have rejected cars on the basis of safety features. I personally have refused to buy a car unless I know it is safe.


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Can't blame Renault for shortchanging the entire market with a compromised Kwid, because it is here to make profits. When other companies continue to sell much higher segment cars without airbags and questionable structural rigidity, why should a 3-lakh budget-segment car be singled out?
You're absolutely wrong. Of course Renault is at fault here. Profits should never be at the cost of a life. When a company knowingly rolls out an unsafe product, it is morally, ethically and legally liable. The only difference is that enforcing any laws in India is easier said than done. If this was country with a working judiciary, these car manufacturers would not dare to do this.

Last edited by Lalvaz : 13th July 2016 at 15:15.
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Old 13th July 2016, 15:47   #17
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Default Re: Renault India builds a safer Kwid for Brazil - 130 kilos heavier!

I went to the showroom to drive the Kwid. One click on the glove box lid and it broke. The SA was apologetic (she said it happened earlier as well- I thought she would ask me to pay for it). If the company cannot even make the plastics strong enough to withstand regular use, what hope do you have for the rest of the car?
Also, the Kwid is not cheap in any way. The version with an Airbag and that touch screen system costs close to 5 Lakhs on the road and you can buy a Ritz or a Figo or the base model of the Bolt or the Tiago for that price.
Yet, Indians love the 'SUV inspired' styling. Even if you give us a fiber glass shell that looks like an SUV fitted with a drive train it would do well in the market. Really shows how much we care (or know) about value.
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Old 13th July 2016, 16:06   #18
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Default Re: Renault India builds a safer Kwid for Brazil - 130 kilos heavier!

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Hmmm, lets say that we do form a "Consumers Consortium", will our finding of deficiencies lead to any remedial measures by these companies???
when one strips the car and places them side-by-side, the customers know which car has just 2 structural bars protecting one car and 3 to 4 bars that provide rigidity to another, then will it not expose them to 'real safety' standards and cost-cutting indulged by manufacturers. Will it not emboss some manufacturers with a 'cheap' label.

In a country that almost rejected the Nano, because it was manufactured to be the cheapest and most inexpensive car, it is then upto the customers to buy or leave the car which the manufacturer itself has positioned it to be a 'dabba' on wheels. Do you really think a customer will want to be straddled with the image of a 'dabba' owner when he is spending his hard-earned money on it.

Not only customers will be stigmatised in opting for certain models which have massive structural deficiencies, but the Govt will also then be forced to take immidiate action since this consumer body is doing what the govt should have done all along, and had the capacity to do all along, and which ARAI was doing all along to all models, since it has all the crash test facilities but severe disinterest to publish the test results, most likely due to pressure from manufacturers who want to sell sub-standard cars.

The consumers consortium can even sell the cars later because it's not like they are wrecking the car with a hammer, they just stripped the sheet metal and maybe they may put it back together with better welding than before. This is useful especially for Gurkha owners.
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Old 13th July 2016, 17:12   #19
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Default Re: Renault India builds a safer Kwid for Brazil - 130 kilos heavier!

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Originally Posted by Rahulkool View Post
Look at the sales chart of Toyota Etios. Only thing matters here is FE.
For your information-Toyota Etios is 4 Star NCAP Rated.

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...rash-test.html (Toyota Etios awarded 4-Stars in Global NCAP Crash Test)

Last edited by GTO : 13th July 2016 at 18:03. Reason: Trimming quoted post as it's been deleted. Thanks
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Old 13th July 2016, 17:21   #20
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Default Re: Renault India builds a safer Kwid for Brazil - 130 kilos heavier!

Isn't we have a thread on a list of cars that scored 0 on euro ncap test and those particular models scoring good for the European counterpart? Aren't we seeing a pattern here of all manufacturers who caters to the mass?

I am not supporting manufacturers selling inferior products here? I denounce them, all of them, period.

But till we have our own car assessment programs all we can do is strike out cars from our shopping list that we know are compromised on safety.

Most of us do shout a lot on cars and manufacturers on compromising safety and when time to buy one for us or may be someone in the family, we end up with one of those. Reason we give to ourselves as VMF. All these 'unsafe' cars are in top of the sales chart every month, wouldn't it enough to make us just paper tigers ?

Why would any manufacturer would take his most selling car from the chart and put it at the bottom of the list to satisfy a fraction of society where mass would like to be in 'tin cans' and 'dabbas'? After all they are here to make money.
Just my rant.

Last edited by PetrolRider : 13th July 2016 at 17:22. Reason: correction
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Old 13th July 2016, 17:32   #21
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Default Re: Renault India builds a safer Kwid for Brazil - 130 kilos heavier!

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Originally Posted by Sherlocked View Post
Such news ......Does it mean that our life is less precious compared to them?...
Not at all - it just means that we Indians (predominantly "the Indian govt.") believe that our lives are less precious. The auto mfrs - like unscrupulous businesses the world over - are perfectly agreeable to go along with a pliant govt's lackadaisical attitude to the safety of human life. Let the govt use the big stick (and speak softly) & we'll all see how soon the mfrs fall in line!

Last edited by shashanka : 13th July 2016 at 17:38.
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Old 13th July 2016, 18:28   #22
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Default Re: Renault India builds a safer Kwid for Brazil - 130 kilos heavier!

I think what's really sad in this case is building these cars side by side which is clearly discriminatory! There are changes in India specific cars, but never such wholesale ones. An example is the Zxi/Zdi version of the Swift which got 3 stars vs the European version that scores 4 stars due to more airbags and traction control. Further, the India-made Baleno has the same weight specifications on the export model as well. VW, for all their mistakes in India still sell a good body structure on all their models. So does Fiat, though I use the word "sell" loosely here!

We have all seen and accepted, for cost reasons, the removal of safety features in Indian models. I don't think I've ever seen a made for India version that is 25% lighter though. That's what makes this action from Renault downright shameful and, as others have mentioned, potentially criminal.
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Old 13th July 2016, 19:00   #23
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Default Re: Renault India builds a safer Kwid for Brazil - 130 kilos heavier!

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Further, the India-made Baleno has the same weight specifications on the export model as well.
What's the basis of this statement? I'm not sure this is factually correct. Could you please point out the source?
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Old 13th July 2016, 19:19   #24
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Default Re: Renault India builds a safer Kwid for Brazil - 130 kilos heavier!

Well importantly how much does the Kwid with all the bells and whistles, I mean airbags, cost in Brazil vs India. I am sure a lot more. Now with no Govt regulatory body ensuring even the basic safety standards for cars in India, I see no point in pointing fingers at Renault and others who are trying to sell cars in a price sensitive market like India.
If the regulatory body or any other governing body ensures the bare minimum safety standards in terms of airbags or brakes and if manufacturers are made to sell only these cars there would be no such complaints. Alas, life in India is cheap and I really don't see a road safety regulator happening any time soon. Please correct me if I am wrong in my observations.
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Old 13th July 2016, 19:40   #25
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Default Re: Renault India builds a safer Kwid for Brazil - 130 kilos heavier!

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What's the basis of this statement? I'm not sure this is factually correct. Could you please point out the source?
Check both Maruti and Suzuki UK websites. The UK model 1.2 petrol with 5 speed manual is 935 kg, the Indian top of the line is 890 kg. The difference of 45 kg can be attributed to 4 extra airbags, 50 cc larger engine and the SVHS system which is default on the export-spec 1.2 liter car. As I said before, it's not as though others aren't making cheaper-for-India cars, it's just that Renault's actions are blatant!

Another example, also from Suzuki/Maruti website - Celerio in the UK is 835 kg vs 830 kg in India for top spec models.

VW Polo in the UK - 1055 kg for the 1.0 3 cylinder, 1053 kg for the 1.2 3 cylinder in India. Again, we gain weight for a slightly larger engine, but we lose weight through less airbags, active and passive safety systems, but not from a radically different structure!
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Old 13th July 2016, 19:42   #26
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Default Re: Renault India builds a safer Kwid for Brazil - 130 kilos heavier!

I would concur with people saying it meets the standards. Would the brazilian version be considered safe in U.S.A ?
Would I buy something like that ? No. Manufacturers can have principles that they would like to produce safe vehicles that are good to the environment and all. But they dont do. Bottom line for financials is job security for people working in companies that dont adhere to good principles.
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Old 13th July 2016, 19:59   #27
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Default Re: Renault India builds a safer Kwid for Brazil - 130 kilos heavier!

There are only two cars under 10 lakhs which have actually passed the crash tests and they are the Toyota Liva and the VW Polo (and their sedan counterparts). Despite being fairly competitive products overall, neither comes anywhere near the segment leaders in terms of sales numbers.

The Ford Figo has six airbags on the top end version and guess what! It is an absolute sales disaster.

Hyundai offered six airbags on the old i20 but nobody wanted to buy it. So much so that until a few months ago, you had to go all the way to the top spec i20 Asta just to get a passenger airbag!

Maruti offers (O) variants with twin airbags and ABS on several models and yet no dealer stocks them. Why? Because nobody wants to pay the extra 20k or so for safety kit and dealers naturally don't want to stock slow movers.

Volvo struggles to get anywhere near the sales numbers that the big German trio rack up despite significantly better safety. Even though they come with massive discounts that make them excellent value, hardly anyone buys them.

It is a depressing situation in the Indian market and while we should call Renault out for this blatant compromise, the Indian customer is equally to blame for stunningly misplaced priorities when it comes to car purchase criteria. After all, we've made it abundantly clear that, no matter the segment, we will always buy the car with the nicer music system before we buy the car with an extra safety kit.

Last edited by McLaren Rulez : 13th July 2016 at 20:07.
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Old 13th July 2016, 20:02   #28
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Default Re: Renault India builds a safer Kwid for Brazil - 130 kilos heavier!

Makes perfect business sense. If you're a baker in Rome, make bread the way Romans like it.

Will an Indian customer buy a Kwid at say, 7 lacs? Very unlikely. But an "SUVish" car without safety features but at 4 lacs? Yes, we'll stand in mile long queues to get that.

Blaming the Govt is acceptable to a point. Mediocre policy making, lax implementation. Outside of that, it is customers who buy and travel in those are the only ones responsible for judging what they seek and take.
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Old 14th July 2016, 00:14   #29
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Default Re: Renault India builds a safer Kwid for Brazil - 130 kilos heavier!

Very sad state of affairs. Feeling bad that not a single car manufacturer value the life of Indian car buyers as much as that of a European or Latin American buyer.

But then, who is to be blamed here? Seller, Buyer or Government?

IMO, buyer should be blamed the most. This is a pull market. The supply is based on the demand and not the other way round. No one makes a car and forces the buyer to buy it. As someone who is buying a product spending his money, the buyer ought to be responsible for his decision. Fancy ads and beautiful design is not going to ensure safety. By the way, Renault is not marketing Kwid as the safest car around - does it? I understand the fact that most of the buyers in this market are not going to do any research on the safety aspect. But, how about buyers from this elite forum? We even voted it to be the Car of the Year

Seller and Government are to be blamed next and equally. The sad state here is they appear to be hand in glove. Government does not care for its citizen's safety and has non-existent regulations pertaining to vehicle safety standards. Seller also does not care for its buyer's safety and says their car adheres or exceeds the country's safety regulations. The day Government plans to implement a better regulation, the lobbyists come into picture and make it non-mover. Culprits of the same order - Government and Seller.

The day we stop buying variants without safety features, manufacturers will be forced to stop their production. The day we tell dealers the reason for not booking is non-availability of safe cars, they will be forced to sell them. We have the power - we have to exercise it.
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Old 14th July 2016, 08:53   #30
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Default Re: Renault India builds a safer Kwid for Brazil - 130 kilos heavier!

Guys,

Please don't be misled by the claimed 6 lakh price tag. The Kwid might be expensive in Brazil for the same reason that the Mustang costs 65 lakhs here - Import Taxes. Like India, Brazil taxes the hell out of imports.

The Kwid would perhaps cost the same 3 - 4 lakhs if it was built locally in Brazil.
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