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Old 14th July 2016, 16:28   #46
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Default Re: Renault India builds a safer Kwid for Brazil - 130 kilos heavier!

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Originally Posted by ramharis View Post

I don't think this is a government issue or manufacturer issue, the issue is with us PEOPLE. Unless and until people start putting their life before mileage and low cost cars, neither the government nor the manufacturer can help you. People need to change the way they buy cars. If you don't care about your life, why should any government nor any manufacturer.
Most people don't think through before making statements like this. The issue is the non existent regulations and the third world useless government. Even if you buy a car with airbags it's meaningless without a proper crash tested structure.

Public opinion is actually not required in many regulations. There are only a few people in the world in every industry who actually understand how things should be. And those are the people who should be writing the laws and regulations. As an off topic, when the whole brexit referendum fiasco occurred people who don't understand head or tail of things were given a choice to have a say in the matter. And what about things like safety standards for things like electricity, building construction, computers. Should we leave that to public choice as well?

Last edited by mxh : 14th July 2016 at 16:31.
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Old 14th July 2016, 16:48   #47
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Default Re: Renault India builds a safer Kwid for Brazil - 130 kilos heavier!

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Originally Posted by ramharis View Post

I don't think this is a government issue or manufacturer issue, the issue is with us PEOPLE. Unless and until people start putting their life before mileage and low cost cars, neither the government nor the manufacturer can help you. People need to change the way they buy cars. If you don't care about your life, why should any government nor any manufacturer.
I mean no offence, mate. But, are you saying manufacturers are absolutely justified to make unsafe cars as long as we are ignorant about safety? That they can continue to focus on the cosmetic features of the car and deliberately relegate safety to oblivion? A few years ago no car had a climate control or bluetooth telephony and we were ignorant about these features too before they were launched. They didn't have to bother introducing these features at all, isn't it?

There is this famous quote of Henry ford, "If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said "faster horses"!!

The fact is, it is indeed the responsibility of a car manufacturer to proactively offer the safest car they can. And in this case, its absolutely unbecoming of a company like Renault to manufacture a safer kwid right here and not sell it here!
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Old 14th July 2016, 17:34   #48
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Default Re: Renault India builds a safer Kwid for Brazil - 130 kilos heavier!

I do not believe that Renault is alone in this adventure. We can blame our weak and dated laws but manufacturers also have a responsibility to improve the standards. In Cinema we believe that the audience is only as good as the films they are exposed towards.
If we as consumers are presented with products that are safer by all manufacturers then we will begin to choose what fits out needs within that framework. So what is needed is for leading manufacturers to up the standards and because of market share others will have to follow suit. I am convinced that If Maruti and Hyundai give us only vehicles with a full safety kit then others will do the same. Instead what we have is an arms race in the size of the touchscreens, dual tones, start buttons etc.
If safety becomes standard then these good features can be the differentiator for our selection but currently these are becoming more standards than safety.
Surely the government has a responsibility but it is high time the market leaders repay our faith in them.
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Old 14th July 2016, 17:38   #49
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Default Re: Renault India builds a safer Kwid for Brazil - 130 kilos heavier!

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Originally Posted by Bh.P View Post
I think it will be a few generations before safer cars become the norm. Starting with Government mandating safer cars, which will push up the car prices, and customers will get used to paying more for safer cars.
I am in agreement that it will be few generations before safer cars become the norm. Car buying is going through an evolution over the past decade or two.

First time buyer who just managed to have enough savings to afford a car may not look at all the minimum requirements a car should statisfy before he / she makes a decision. Many of them may just go by word of mouth to decide on the brand or his friends / neighbours recommendation / influence. Some of them knowing will go for less safer car and some may be by ignorance. There are definite exceptions to this and percentage might be low.

As one drives, experiences,learns about the cars and safety(there could be many exceptions to this) he / she may starting thinking about safety and may have this as a requirement for next car. Second generation car buyer in the family may already look for safety in cars as they would have already experience it and could spend the extra bit for the safety.

Can we expedite this process so that every one thinks about safety of ownself in making cary buying decision? The answer may be tending to NO if it is left to the individual.

The answer may be tending towards YES, if government steps in 1) to create awareness among the public 2) appropriate legislation / policy / regulation to cater to minimum saftey standards in a car (be it AIRBAGS, ABS, CRASH TEST, Structural Worthiness etc.)

As an example, once the government announced AIRBAGS and ABS will have to be standard in cars starting 2017, lot of manufactures started offering them as standard across variants (though our largest seller offerred them as an optional and there are many cases reported in the forum the difficulty in getting the delivery of optional variant - Corporate Social Reponsibility at play??).


After all, manufactures try to make their product compliant with the rules and regulations of the land, until such time we would continue to have the situation.
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Old 14th July 2016, 18:08   #50
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Default Re: Renault India builds a safer Kwid for Brazil - 130 kilos heavier!

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Originally Posted by veyron_head View Post
I mean no offence, mate. But, are you saying manufacturers are absolutely justified to make unsafe cars as long as we are ignorant about safety?

The fact is, it is indeed the responsibility of a car manufacturer to proactively offer the safest car they can. And in this case, its absolutely unbecoming of a company like Renault to manufacture a safer kwid right here and not sell it here!
Well in marketing its very important to know what consumer wants and build it accordingly. Not every company is like the Steve's Jobs' Apple that came up with a product that consumers never thought of.

Now coming back to Renault, if they would have brought the heavier Kwid (the one sold in Brazil) following 2 things would have happened:

1) The FE definitely would have been much lower than the present 25.xx km/ltr which would have been lower than the segment king, Alto.

2) Their costs would have gone up and so would have their Ex-Showroom price.

For a country that is obsessed with low cost, unsafe and high FE cars, Renault just followed the code and it seems they got it right, at least thats what the Kwid numbers suggest. I agree that they can do better, but why would they do something that wouldnt fetch them sales?

I still remember the earlier Maruti 800s, were better built, than say the current swift, but it deteriorated and people didnt complain. Same case with the earlier swift and city.

PS: Brazil is a country where safety is given a much higher importance and Fiat/VAG cars sell there like Maruti sells here and that says a lot.

Last edited by Waspune : 14th July 2016 at 18:13.
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Old 14th July 2016, 18:58   #51
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Default Re: Renault India builds a safer Kwid for Brazil - 130 kilos heavier!

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Originally Posted by mxh View Post
Most people don't think through before making statements like this. The issue is the non existent regulations and the third world useless government. Even if you buy a car with airbags it's meaningless without a proper crash tested structure.
Fine, let's start with the government and perhaps the most successful manufacturer in India . Renault is certainly not the one to be blamed.
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Old 14th July 2016, 19:29   #52
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Default Re: Renault India builds a safer Kwid for Brazil - 130 kilos heavier!

I am from the financial services field and we have something called a 'fiduciary responsibility' to our customer. If a regulation allows me a window to make some more money for my organization but if that is against this principle of fiduciary responsibility we don't do it.

Drawing an analogy I don't see any in the auto sector. Maybe for safety the Germans and the Swedes are good but the rest are perhaps from the same stable and that is taking the common man for a really unsafe ride!

One thing for sure I will not buy a Renault car for certain.

p.s. these are my personal opinions only

Last edited by deevee : 14th July 2016 at 19:30. Reason: missed a word
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Old 14th July 2016, 19:53   #53
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Default Re: Renault India builds a safer Kwid for Brazil - 130 kilos heavier!

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Originally Posted by ramharis View Post
Iam not sure why people are blaming the government and car manufacturer. Are you as a person not concerned about your life. When I choose a car, the mandatory requirements will be ABS and Airbags. I would not mind paying the extra 50k to 2L just to have those. I see Maruti Alto topping the charts every month, ever wonder why that one car dominates the sales ?
Yes, isn't it better not to have a variant without these safety features? If car makers provide these across all variants, there is no choice for someone to go for a cheaper version. Buying the top variant for safety features seems preposterous!
There is no reason why one should sell a car devoid of safety features and no manufacturer should be allowed to do so.

Last edited by puneeth2 : 14th July 2016 at 19:55.
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Old 14th July 2016, 22:35   #54
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Default Re: Renault India builds a safer Kwid for Brazil - 130 kilos heavier!

It hasn't stopped the car from selling, has it?

Just went past the 1,50,000 bookings mark, which would translate into a 9-10 month waiting period in some parts of India! (link)

Can we BHPians slap some sense into the majority of the Indian populace who are thronging into the Renault showrooms as we speak, to line up for the "unsafe and very dangerous" Kwid?

Better still, will they SEE some sense, even after a slapping session?

ANY sense?

Like I said before - when a 11-lakh OTR Scorpio (Zero stars in NCAP), 12-lakh OTR Storme (EX with no airbags), even a 7-8 lakh OTR DZire (V_i variants with no airbags) sell, why should the "common" customer bother about "safety", "structural rigidity" and "airbags/ABS" in a 4.5-lakh OTR Kwid?

Masses want 'em, manufacturers feed 'em.

Everything else, unfortunately, is moot.

Blame the governments, blame the manufacturers, blame the law all you want - in the end, only the respective "piggy banks" continue to keep swelling.

Hope the sarcasm is not lost in translation here.

Last edited by RavenAvi : 14th July 2016 at 22:39.
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Old 14th July 2016, 23:20   #55
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Default Re: Renault India builds a safer Kwid for Brazil - 130 kilos heavier!

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Originally Posted by RavenAvi View Post

Can we BHPians slap some sense into the majority of the Indian populace who are thronging into the Renault showrooms as we speak, to line up for the "unsafe and very dangerous" Kwid?
We need not go out too far to look for people who had queued up or are queuing up for such cars, Kwid included. A lot of BHPians have bought them, after reading the reviews, after going through tens or hundreds of posts on safety, structural integrity and the like.

Goes without saying, every customer has their own priorities. Safety might not feature among the top items. Same goes for Renault and other manufacturers.
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Old 14th July 2016, 23:28   #56
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Default Re: Renault India builds a safer Kwid for Brazil - 130 kilos heavier!

So can all of us, the automobile consumer base stop buying such cars with low safety features? No, at least the majority won't.
We are a nation of diverse people; so diverse that each person in the same home has a different view about the same object. It is this scenario that makes evan a Chairman remark like " He said that if carmakers incorporate such features in even entry-level cars, obviously the price would go up, which would lead consumers to opt for two-wheelers, which would be more unsafe."

It is this lack of unity among the consumers that emboldens manufactures to give such safety features a miss and take us for granted. They know that we're in no position to demand and even if we, it'll only form a minuscule amount of their customer base.

If they can manufacture them here, what harm does it do in introducing them here as a more premium version and see if the consumers prefer it? Isn't it as simple as diverting some stock and putting them up for sale?
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Old 14th July 2016, 23:28   #57
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Default Re: Renault India builds a safer Kwid for Brazil - 130 kilos heavier!

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Originally Posted by RavenAvi View Post

Hope the sarcasm is not lost in translation here.
When India's leading manufacturer's such as Maruti do not 'lead' on safety how do we then expect a relative new comer like Renault to lead the way? I am not defending Renault but rather all manufacturers must be equally blamed,particularly the top 3 who have not shown the way. I think we really need a competition between Alto and Kwid to determine who is structurally more poor!!
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Old 15th July 2016, 01:25   #58
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Default Re: Renault India builds a safer Kwid for Brazil - 130 kilos heavier!

My thoughts: pardon my ignorance, if any don't make sense.

Current scenario:
Bulk of the Indian car buyers are from middle class background. There are different class of people, buying various segment cars. i.e, from Nano, Alto, Kwid, i10, Swift/Dzire, i20, Scorpio, Safari and the list goes on) - and the versions without Air Bags & ABS. Those who are bit safety conscious, do get themselves the safety pack as well.

Now imagine a family of 3 or 4, driving on a scooter / bike (hot summer / rainy seasons within city driving) - are they safe riding a bike v/s driving in a Nano, Kwid, Alto within City? This family can make a stretch (take a loan etc.,) and afford to buy an entry level car. Naturally it would make sense, on why they are concerned about FE v/s safety kit (when compared with their bike). Even if they are safety conscious and get the safety kit (optional), then what good is it to buy a structurally unstable car with airbags and ABS.

The one's getting i10 grand / i20, scorpio, safari etc without airbags -> these folks definitely need safety awareness regarding where to put their money (music system, alloy wheels, interior aesthetics v/s safety kit).

Also read regarding the recent Honda recall of several of their models for faulty air bags (even in cars like JAZZ, City etc.). So no good even having a structurally stable car with all the safety pack here as it wouldn't kick in during the time of need.

Future changes (hoping they would be implemented):
Having had the above thoughts, definitely Govt Of India should step in and make stringent rules regarding build quality, safety kits, & have severe penalties for not abiding by them. Similarly traffic rules should be made strict with hefty fines for breaking them. Crash tests should be made mandatory and minimum standard / ratings to be maintained for cars, if it has to be sold in India.

Now once these regulations come in, manufactures will be forced to make structurally safe cars with all the safety kits as a norm (from the base version - where no option for the customer to chose safety pack as an option). Of course this will increase the price of the car, but here is where Govt has to play a major role again by working with manufacturers and ensure that a business friendly environment (in regards to taxation) is created.

Now with all the above done, manufacturers will then be competing against each other in the price sensitive entry level segment to fulfill the needs of lower middle class (families upgrading from bikes to cars and tight on budget etc.,).

Currently, this is the segment where bulk volumes are sold and have most of the issues / concerns with safety standards & build quality.

Apologize if my thoughts are scattered and appear naive, but when such discussions are bought up - I remember Ratan Tata's dream / passion to sell the most cheapest, value for money car to a lower middle class Indian family.

Sadly it didn't turn out as expected to make Nano a complete package (stability & safety wise). Primarily due to fierce competition who already were making tin cup cars (at a higher premium) with no Govt norms or rules around safety / stability, forcing TATA to further cut down on quality / safety (as it had to cheap / affordable to what was already being offered).

Interested folks can read below excerpt:
http://www.funonthenet.in/forums/ind...c=81793.0;wap2

Note: I booked a ford Ecosport Titanium+ only for the build quality, safety pack (6 airbags), ground clearance being offered. Of course the mileage as well (diesel version)
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Old 15th July 2016, 09:24   #59
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Default Re: Renault India builds a safer Kwid for Brazil - 130 kilos heavier!

Every first time buyer is brain washed only about vehicle maintenance costs and resale value. People who fall to such advice never think about their safety and maintenance costs in case of an accident. The number 1 car manufacturer in India is not worried about providing safety features for its consumers and is still coming out with outdated designs in the entry level segment, why to spread a bad word about other cars like Kwid, Redi-go, and Eon. Unless an apple to apple comparison is not made it is not correct to blame other car manufacturers.
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Old 15th July 2016, 11:46   #60
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Default Re: Renault India builds a safer Kwid for Brazil - 130 kilos heavier!

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The number 1 car manufacturer in India is not worried about providing safety features for its consumers and is still coming out with outdated designs in the entry level segment, why to spread a bad word about other cars like Kwid, Redi-go, and Eon.
I agree to this comment. Having said this we have seen instances of these established manufacturers recalling their vehicles for faulty airbags atleast more than once. I want to ask the experts does the govt or any other body keep a track of these recalls with history of number of recalls (may be for all parts) and question them ? Considering the severity of these products like airbags doesnít it make sense to have severe norms of quality check with zero tolerance to defects, similar to medical devices. It should be a crime if the airbag is faulty even for one vehicle and here have scenarios where we are talking about it in masses.

Also the premium tag we call for vehicles with airbags or ABS is always high in the range of 1lac+ to 1.75 lac depending on models; With so much of innovation am sure even these prices can be brought down, however why it looks high is because itís always packaged with enhanced interiors, superior music system, expensive seat covers, alloy wheels etc. Once you start providing these lifesaving packages at lower prices there will be people who surely opt for it.
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