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Old 18th July 2016, 21:36   #31
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Default re: July 2016: NGT tells Delhi to deregister all Diesel Vehicles over 10 years old

A very unfortunate decision by the NGT. Instead of banning vehicles based on their age or the number of kilometers covered, they should base the criteria on the health of a vehicle. Similar thing is done in Medical Science where the health of a person is not dependent on his or her age. Like there are tests to gauge how fit a person is, similar comprehensive tests should be introduced to check a vehicle's health & only then a fitness certificate should be issued for that particular vehicle. Just because the process is susceptible to cheating by a few doesn't mean that there should be a blanket ban. That's akin to saying that issuing of Drivers License should be banned because a few can bribe & buy their licenses.

I think a much better way is to allow all vehicles conforming to the previous highest and above emission norms be allowed to ply. Let's say that if Euro 4 is the current highest norm, all Euro 3 & above vehicles should be allowed. When Euro 6 is introduced then all Euro 4 and above vehicles be allowed & so on & so forth. Just like how Apple does it's iPhone updates. The date of introducing new norms & phasing of older vehicles should be announced way in advance to give automobile industry, refining companies & users time to adapt to the new norms. Coupled with the scrapping policy this could give the users time & incentive to upgrade to a newer less polluting vehicle and be also more transparent to the automobile industry. Such knee jerk reactions don't help anyone apart from some NGOs & activists.
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Old 18th July 2016, 21:39   #32
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Default re: July 2016: NGT tells Delhi to deregister all Diesel Vehicles over 10 years old

We are talking about approaching the pollution issue in a "phased out" manner. It's easier said than done, i.e., without infuriating at least some percentage of the population. It's hard to keep everyone happy.

Perhaps limit new diesels to be registered only for commercial vehicles? Let the registration expire for current diesels, and not reregister them again? Ban more than 10 year old petrols unless they run on CNG?
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Old 18th July 2016, 21:43   #33
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Default re: July 2016: NGT tells Delhi to deregister all Diesel Vehicles over 10 years old

And when pollution levels still do not come down (which certainly won't with such half baked measures), then will they reduce it to 5 years and above? I wonder what science have the folks on NGT applied? Why aren't they even talking about meeting emission norms? And what about the quality of fuel that we get? What is the point in buying a Euro 6 compliant car when the fuel that I am putting in is sub par?

It appears they rather have a polluting new car on the road than an old car that does not pollute!!

Last edited by Masda : 18th July 2016 at 21:51.
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Old 18th July 2016, 22:38   #34
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Default re: July 2016: NGT tells Delhi to deregister all Diesel Vehicles over 10 years old

I would say this is a very good move. If we look at a vehicle purchased 10 years ago , say in 2005, at best it would be confirming to Euro3/2/1 norms. Keeping in mind the pollution levels in the NCR, particulate matter emitted by these vehicles is taken into account here. That must be higher than the current norms of Euro4 and proposed Euro6.

Having said that, i can imagine all Delhi registered diesel vehicle flooding neighbouring states. Cheap bids for ten year old oil burners. All is needed is a valid NOC and they can be registered in other states.
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Old 19th July 2016, 00:27   #35
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Default re: July 2016: NGT tells Delhi to deregister all Diesel Vehicles over 10 years old

Not very sure whether this will sustain or not. I have 3 diesels in my family and the oldest one is a 2008 model.

And some one has rightly pointed out , what happens to the 15 year road tax payment , if you ban a car in just 10 years.
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Old 19th July 2016, 00:34   #36
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Originally Posted by spyder_p8 View Post
I would say this is a very good move. If we look at a vehicle purchased 10 years ago , say in 2005, at best it would be confirming to Euro3/2/1 norms. Keeping in mind the pollution levels in the NCR, particulate matter emitted by these vehicles is taken into account here. That must be higher than the current norms of Euro4 and proposed Euro6.

Having said that, i can imagine all Delhi registered diesel vehicle flooding neighbouring states. Cheap bids for ten year old oil burners. All is needed is a valid NOC and they can be registered in other states.
A rare post in support of the move by NGT.

At the risk of becoming unpopular, I too am going to stick my neck out.

How come no one argued in favour of a cleaner environment? Is no one amongst us bothered with the poison we breathe? Is our love for cars so overriding that we become selfish about the loss of a 'perfectly maintained in pristine condition' but 10 year old diesel car to the larger good.

The days and times of unrestricted car ownership are truly about to end, at least in all big cities. And we must all contribute our bit to a better environment. We'll have to be ready to sacrifice our right to car ownership in favour of our right to cleaner air.

Honestly people, how many of you would have bought a diesel car if diesel wasn't this lopsidedly priced in our country. More so ten years ago. A rare person would buy it purely for that turbo kick, that too which came in only at 2500 rpm, (and then keep cribbing about the lag in city runs).

In another thread i was arguing about the ridiculousness of a proposed 1% cess so magnanimously 'accepted' by the manufacturer for cars over 2000cc. I argued it to be at least 20 - 30%. Of course the main point about how a cess makes the air cleaner is completely lost.

I for one support all moves which prove to be a deterrent to increased car ownership, particularly diesel.

And yes petrol cars are next in line.

Last edited by LithiumSunset : 19th July 2016 at 00:37.
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Old 19th July 2016, 02:35   #37
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Originally Posted by LithiumSunset View Post
A rare post in support of the move by NGT.

At the risk of becoming unpopular, I too am going to stick my neck out.

How come no one argued in favour of a cleaner environment? Is no one amongst us bothered with the poison we breathe? Is our love for cars so overriding that we become selfish about the loss of a 'perfectly maintained in pristine condition' but 10 year old diesel car to the larger good.
Because there is no logic behind this move.
There has to be scientific reasoning to support this stupid ban.
If my car doesn't meet the standards then only they have the right to take it off the road. What if I barely drove my car in those ten years.
Also dumping so many cars is no better for the environment either. Plus you need to have a working and efficient public transport system in place before you come up with such blanket bans.
There is no issue with phasing out diesel vehicles but this surely is not the right way to go about it. Raising diesel prices and providing subsidized diesel to only farmers and commercial transport vehicles is a much better way, but that too is a regulation nightmare.

Best option to reduce pollution in big cities is to come with robust public transport systems with last mile connectivity which run on clean energy. Most if not all of the people will prefer to use such means because even enthusiasts prefer an easier commute to their destination rather than being stuck in traffic.
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Old 19th July 2016, 02:46   #38
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Default re: July 2016: NGT tells Delhi to deregister all Diesel Vehicles over 10 years old

Quote:
Originally Posted by LithiumSunset View Post
A rare post in support of the move by NGT.

At the risk of becoming unpopular, I too am going to stick my neck out.

How come no one argued in favour of a cleaner environment? Is no one amongst us bothered with the poison we breathe? Is our love for cars so overriding that we become selfish about the loss of a 'perfectly maintained in pristine condition' but 10 year old diesel car to the larger good.

The days and times of unrestricted car ownership are truly about to end, at least in all big cities. And we must all contribute our bit to a better environment. We'll have to be ready to sacrifice our right to car ownership in favour of our right to cleaner air.

Honestly people, how many of you would have bought a diesel car if diesel wasn't this lopsidedly priced in our country. More so ten years ago. A rare person would buy it purely for that turbo kick, that too which came in only at 2500 rpm, (and then keep cribbing about the lag in city runs).

In another thread i was arguing about the ridiculousness of a proposed 1% cess so magnanimously 'accepted' by the manufacturer for cars over 2000cc. I argued it to be at least 20 - 30%. Of course the main point about how a cess makes the air cleaner is completely lost.

I for one support all moves which prove to be a deterrent to increased car ownership, particularly diesel.

And yes petrol cars are next in line.
It is not that we do not want clean air to breathe. I agree that sacrifices have to be made for a cleaner environment but my problem with all this is that there doesn't seem to be a consistent automotive policy in place in our country. I am also not sure why three different sets of people are coming out with arbitrary laws (NGT/supreme court/center govt). I mean isn't it the government's job to frame the future automotive policy for the country and the court's job to look at incidences of violation of these policies. An inconsistent policy and a hyperactive judiciary with respect to diesel policy will dissuade investment in the auto sector and cause lakhs of rupees in depreciation loss for owners for no fault of theirs. A consistent framework which clearly lists how polluting diesel vehicles(based on emissions not engine size or age!!) are to be taken off the road was needed and not a blanket ban.
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Old 19th July 2016, 03:37   #39
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Default re: July 2016: NGT tells Delhi to deregister all Diesel Vehicles over 10 years old

I expected a proper dissection of the problem along with a sensible & pragmatic solution.
Is this order actually even implementable ?

No offense, but seems the NGT has based its judgement on non-scientific & inaccurate findings & observations. Dare-say the deciding-method seems to be much like that of a Khap Panchayat of sorts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turbo_Charger View Post
...The date of introducing new norms & phasing of older vehicles should be announced way in advance to give automobile industry, refining companies & users time to adapt to the new norms. Coupled with the scrapping policy this could give the users time & incentive to upgrade to a newer less polluting vehicle and be also more transparent to the automobile industry. Such knee jerk reactions don't help anyone apart from some NGOs & activists.
Partly true that they should've introduced incentives like the cash for clunkers scheme, but its also partly true that this is an issue pending to be addressed since decades. The current situation truly is that of extreme toxicity in the air.

Not glad looking at this arbitrariness with no schemes in place (the only thing that seriously pinches).

Glad that the Delhi govt tried to hold NGT back till now, considering their vote-bank didn't seemingly constitute the creamy layer (Oh c'mon old time car owners, you're either entering or you've prolly been well within the layer for a while ) that owned cars.

Not glad that there wasn't an alternative public transport planned though this has been a long^3 term concern,

Glad that this'll encourage growth of Taxi Drivers incomes. Though Uber will make a killing, its mostly ok because people will get habituated to pooling through UberPool & its likes and this'll eventually help adoption of public transport that'll come over a not-SO-long period of time.

Glad that this, in a way, discourages under-utilisation of this class of assets.

Lets see.

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Originally Posted by Hayek View Post
Turkey resisted an attempt by an unelected force that thinks it is superior to the will of the people as expressed through parliament to take the reigns of power....the limits of their power under the constitution.
This can be partly considered very very trivial compared to whats happening in Turkey. Kindly reserve such serious comments for serious issues.

I was going to rebutt very strongly, but then realised your comment was coming from a classical liberal POV.

There are various schools of thought, each having its rather compelling narratives. Anyway, to each, his own. Have a great week ahead.

Last edited by GrammarNazi : 19th July 2016 at 03:45.
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Old 19th July 2016, 07:53   #40
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Default re: July 2016: NGT tells Delhi to deregister all Diesel Vehicles over 10 years old

One very critical aspect of this to be considered is that all these so called "polluting/unfit vehicles" are being sold outside Delhi with a NOC and happily running in rest of the country. Isn't pollution a national level issue?

Last edited by GTO : 19th July 2016 at 13:27. Reason: Typos - please proof read before posting
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Old 19th July 2016, 08:50   #41
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Originally Posted by rdst_1 View Post
Because there is no logic behind this move.
There has to be scientific reasoning to support this stupid ban.
If my car doesn't meet the standards then only they have the right to take it off the road. What if I barely drove my car in those ten years.
Also dumping so many cars is no better for the environment either. Plus you need to have a working and efficient public transport system in place before you come up with such blanket bans.
There is no issue with phasing out diesel vehicles but this surely is not the right way to go about it. Raising diesel prices and providing subsidized diesel to only farmers and commercial transport vehicles is a much better way, but that too is a regulation nightmare.

Best option to reduce pollution in big cities is to come with robust public transport systems with last mile connectivity which run on clean energy. Most if not all of the people will prefer to use such means because even enthusiasts prefer an easier commute to their destination rather than being stuck in traffic.
I think you raise completely valid points.

There is no argument on the need for better public transport, deregulation of diesel prices and a saner polluter doesn't pollute policy (I don't see the logic of polluter pays a cess and the environment gets automatically cleaned policy).

However in light of the fact that every well meaning law / regulation is subverted by us will only see these knee jerk reactions.

The point I wanted to make was the need for dire measures.

The NGT order is bound to run into trouble and the morning newspaper is already saying something: NGT's diesel car order may fall flat
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/t...w/53275174.cms via @timesofindia
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Old 19th July 2016, 08:55   #42
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Default re: July 2016: NGT tells Delhi to deregister all Diesel Vehicles over 10 years old

Doesn't anyone get a doubt that the car manufacturers may have a hand in this ruling.

The order might not sustain, but it will most definitely encourage people to change their oil burners as soon as possible - across the country. And then who stands to gain.
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Old 19th July 2016, 09:00   #43
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Default re: July 2016: NGT tells Delhi to deregister all Diesel Vehicles over 10 years old

Quote:
Originally Posted by drmohitg View Post
......being sold outside Delhi with a NOC and happily running in rest of the country?
+1 to that and may I add "running in rest of the country "and Delhi". What about more than 10 year old non-Delhi registered cars crossing Delhi or regularly visiting Delhi? Will or rather can they be prevented from entering Delhi?
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Old 19th July 2016, 09:06   #44
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Default re: July 2016: NGT tells Delhi to deregister all Diesel Vehicles over 10 years old

Quote:
Originally Posted by drmohitg View Post
One very critical aspect of this to be considered is that all these so called "polluting/unfit vehciles" are being sold outside Delhi with a NOC and happily running in rest of the country. Isn't pollution is national level issue?
Yes it indeed is, and all this move is doing as of now is creating a higher demand for new cars as every diesel car in Delhi which is nearing 8-10 years will be replaced strategically.

Without a proper car & engine recycling plant this move is wasteful. Even a small country like England has the space to have several scrapping units where parts are either recycled or sold to fix other vehicles damage. Why must our country always shoot first and look later? There is no saying how many innocent casualties increase due to this. The sun-film decision also resulted in the same thing. I'm also sure that there are many people now even planning to make a business out of getting Delhi cars sold elsewhere.

Why not increase registration costs for diesel vehicles nationally? Say +20% and +50% for over 2.5-3L engines? Why not issue a buy-back scheme first before callously asking the consumer to decide the mode of scrappage? I know for a fact that the very same "authorities" promoted diesel sales back then and manufacturers made merry by charging premium well over the petrol models.. why didn't they intervene back then?

Are we even a planned democracy any more or are we just going by the opposite of the butterfly effect (large actions having small effect)?
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Old 19th July 2016, 10:13   #45
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Default re: July 2016: NGT tells Delhi to deregister all Diesel Vehicles over 10 years old

NGT is behind the vehicular pollution like a dog behind a bone! While vehicular pollution does seem to be a serious issue in cities, what about industrial pollution that is causing far more severe damage to the environment we live in? Every single environmental regulation is being diluted in the name of ease of doing business. Seems like NGT won't care much about all the damage deregulating coastal zones will cause. Or classifying mangroves as shrubs instead of forest tag it had earlier will really deprive Mumbai for remaining lungs isn't their top agenda.

Seems like going behind those who won't really push back much (read aam admi) and score some points is the mantra of NGT. Everyone else has a lobby but the common man!

After the SC ban on diesel vehicles over 2000cc, here we have another irrational ban? Seriously stinks of vested interests. Am all for what @TanmayK mentioned as the approach - it at least won't harass vehicle owners without providing a way out.

Last edited by Nilesh5417 : 19th July 2016 at 10:16.
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