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Old 19th July 2016, 17:43   #76
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Originally Posted by ashokrajagopal View Post
The idea of a life time tax for 15 years is the RTO giving some sort of a license to run the vehicle for 15 years. 15 years is a long time and the Govt is well within in rights to not allow vehicles older than 15 years for a re registration.
Here, NGT is just moving the pointer 5 years back.
No they are not. They can only deny re-registration if my vehicle is not fit for the road. What if I barely drove my vehicle in those 10 years.
Setting an age for a vehicle, irrespective of whether it pollutes or not, puts a hell lot of more stress on the environment unless all the new cars have been made using clean energy and substances procured using ethical processes.
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Old 19th July 2016, 17:53   #77
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Default Re: July 2016: NGT tells Delhi to deregister all Diesel Vehicles over 10 years old

Okay, the clean energy and the ethical procurement etc are all discussions in an entirely different thread.
We cant wait for everything in the world to be fixed to start making a step. Manufacturing processes are very much localized, so the impact to environment is much less compared to actual use of the vehicle. If you own a 10years old car, chances are your car is BS3 at best and the best used car pollutes to an X level more than say a out of factory BS4 car. Rules are made for majority of the cases, not for exceptional cases.
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Old 19th July 2016, 18:17   #78
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Okay, the clean energy and the ethical procurement etc are all discussions in an entirely different thread.
We cant wait for everything in the world to be fixed to start making a step. Manufacturing processes are very much localized, so the impact to environment is much less compared to actual use of the vehicle. If you own a 10years old car, chances are your car is BS3 at best and the best used car pollutes to an X level more than say a out of factory BS4 car. Rules are made for majority of the cases, not for exceptional cases.
No they are not.
See if you are going to just scrap 10L vehicles, you do have to take into account the carbon footprint of both the manufacturing and scrapping processes as well. If those 2 processes end up causing many times more pollution than running those cars, then by simple logic this ruling doesn't make sense.

Edit - Yes, if my car fails to pass the PUC tests, then by all means it should be de-registered and scrapped.

Last edited by rdst_1 : 19th July 2016 at 18:18.
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Old 19th July 2016, 18:26   #79
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Originally Posted by ashokrajagopal View Post
The idea of a life time tax for 1-----snip----- lesser than a vehicle 10 years older.
OK.
There's an even saner option that is already in place, just not enforced as the law states it should be.
Wanna hazard a guess?
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Old 19th July 2016, 18:59   #80
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Default Re: July 2016: NGT tells Delhi to deregister all Diesel Vehicles over 10 years old

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Originally Posted by rdst_1 View Post
No they are not.
See if you are going to just scrap 10L vehicles, you do have to take into account the carbon footprint of both the manufacturing and scrapping processes as well. If those 2 processes end up causing many times more pollution than running those cars, then by simple logic this ruling doesn't make sense.

Edit - Yes, if my car fails to pass the PUC tests, then by all means it should be de-registered and scrapped.
Pollution is a very broad term, from plastic to all other forms of non degradable matter. Any rule related to vehicle control is pertaining to air quality especially in our cities.
Carbon footprint is a very broad term and includes all gases including those produced by natural means. Pointing out all the problems in manufacturing etc I guess is certainly a good thought, but using that as an argument to continue using older vehicles, I am not sure is a good idea.

The current PUC standard for new vehicles is BS4. Which means all BS3 vehicles automatically do not pass.
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Old 19th July 2016, 19:05   #81
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Default Re: July 2016: NGT tells Delhi to deregister all Diesel Vehicles over 10 years old

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Originally Posted by mayankk View Post
OK.
There's an even saner option that is already in place, just not enforced as the law states it should be.
Wanna hazard a guess?
Is that the PUC check ?
I dont know if the PUC allowed levels are equal to BS4 norms. I tend to believe it is not, how else would BS3 cars get a certificate. Unless that is done, we cannot ensure that the PUC checking is going in the right direction.

This is, after ensuring that PUC check is religiously executed.
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Old 19th July 2016, 19:12   #82
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Default Re: July 2016: NGT tells Delhi to deregister all Diesel Vehicles over 10 years old

How about a rule like "Kill everybody who is beyond a certain age and not healthy enough."? That should keep our population young and healthy. Just saying.

-- Torqy
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Old 19th July 2016, 19:15   #83
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Default Re: July 2016: NGT tells Delhi to deregister all Diesel Vehicles over 10 years old

Well, vehicle is not people. There is a huge difference. There is no point in keeping vehicles alive when such alive vehicles can kill people down the line. Health issues related to pollution in NCR are aplenty.
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Old 19th July 2016, 19:16   #84
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Originally Posted by ashokrajagopal View Post
Pollution is a very broad term, from plastic to all other forms of non degradable matter. Any rule related to vehicle control is pertaining to air quality especially in our cities.
Carbon footprint is a very broad term and includes all gases including those produced by natural means. Pointing out all the problems in manufacturing etc I guess is certainly a good thought, but using that as an argument to continue using older vehicles, I am not sure is a good idea.

The current PUC standard for new vehicles is BS4. Which means all BS3 vehicles automatically do not pass.
See, if you suddenly scrap 10L vehicles, then that creates a sudden need for at least 9L vehicles as at least 90% of the people will look to buy a replacement vehicle ASAP. This sudden demand would mean that the pollution caused while manufacturing those vehicles, which originally would have been spaced over a certain period of time, is released in a much shorter period of time as more vehicles get manufactured that weren't needed.
Also, pollution in all forms certainly has to be included in the calculations and not just air pollution in Delhi as otherwise we are only trading one form of pollution for the other ( and probably in a different location) and that defeats the logic behind causing less harm to the environment.

When a new PUC standard is adopted, there has to be a buffer period created before you can remove the cars with older standards off the road. And that period has to be decided and communicated at that point of time. Otherwise, even a month old BS 3 car will be ineligible to be run on the road once BS4 is put into place.

RTOs taking 15 years Road Tax and providing RCs for 15 years means that that buffer period is 15 years and you just can't suddenly say after 10 years that we are reducing that period without providing suitable alternative and compensation.
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Old 19th July 2016, 19:42   #85
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Default Re: July 2016: NGT tells Delhi to deregister all Diesel Vehicles over 10 years old

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Originally Posted by rdst_1 View Post
See, if you suddenly scrap 10L vehicles, then that creates a sudden need for at least 9L vehicles as at least 90% of the people will look to buy a replacement vehicle ASAP. This sudden demand would mean that the pollution caused while manufacturing those vehicles, which originally would have been spaced over a certain period of time, is released in a much shorter period of time as more vehicles get manufactured that weren't needed.
Also, pollution in all forms certainly has to be included in the calculations and not just air pollution in Delhi as otherwise we are only trading one form of pollution for the other ( and probably in a different location) and that defeats the logic behind causing less harm to the environment.

When a new PUC standard is adopted, there has to be a buffer period created before you can remove the cars with older standards off the road. And that period has to be decided and communicated at that point of time. Otherwise, even a month old BS 3 car will be ineligible to be run on the road once BS4 is put into place.

RTOs taking 15 years Road Tax and providing RCs for 15 years means that that buffer period is 15 years and you just can't suddenly say after 10 years that we are reducing that period without providing suitable alternative and compensation.

Banning 10 year old and above vehicles does not mean on a given date 10L vehicles stop, right ? They become unusable only after they complete 10 years. Unless 10L diesel vehicles where registered ( and still in use) in NCR in Jul/Aug 2006, there is not going to be a demand for 9L vehicles right away, right ?
Certainly overall less harm to environment must be the agenda. But breathable air quality in manufacturing locations VS big cities is a very evident matter. Manufacturing locations (generally) do not have huge population; big cities where the cars are used, do.

Also, the BS3 norm came into effect in 2005 in Metros, and entire country in 2010.
BS4 norms came into effect in Metros in 2010, and there is a Govt proposal to enforce BS6 for the whole of India in 2020.
Banning vehicles produced before 2006 means, bulk of them ( except for the ones registered in 2005-06) are in BS2 norms. We have BS4 in effect for 5 years in Delhi, its buffer for a BS2 car user, isnt it ?

Please note that I am talking about the majority of vehicles, not any particularly well maintained car. I mentioned before, that definitely RTOs must refund the road tax. A benefit for the scrapping process, or a discount of tax on new vehicle, all such ideas may be considered. But I am not sure fixating on the 15 year number as a business contract is right thought. Pollution levels now is much higher than 15 years back. Sometimes rules have to be changed.
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Old 19th July 2016, 20:00   #86
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Default Re: July 2016: NGT tells Delhi to deregister all Diesel Vehicles over 10 years old

Looking at all these bans what I can see is Delhi Government is forcing people to buy new vehicles. Sometimes It feels like lobbying from some Automobile manufactures (stupid decisions like considering SHVS as hybrid) . If they are really concerned about pollution levels they should strictly monitor PUC status of every vehicles and prevent autowallas and cab drivers from using kerosene and what not.
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Old 19th July 2016, 20:03   #87
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Default Re: July 2016: NGT tells Delhi to deregister all Diesel Vehicles over 10 years old

Can I invoke the "Right to Information" and just ask NGT based on what they have decided to implement this. What proof do they have that proves any diesel car greater than 10 years old is highly polluting?

May be I am just irritated by all this trash that these NGT people are doling around. But at least if this decision would have been more transparent with figures, statistics, graphs etc. it might have been better to digest.

Last edited by Aditya : 20th July 2016 at 07:29. Reason: Please avoid profanity
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Old 19th July 2016, 20:06   #88
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Default Re: July 2016: NGT tells Delhi to deregister all Diesel Vehicles over 10 years old

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Originally Posted by ashokrajagopal View Post
Banning 10 year old and above vehicles does not mean on a given date 10L vehicles stop, right ? They become unusable only after they complete 10 years. Unless 10L diesel vehicles where registered ( and still in use) in NCR in Jul/Aug 2006, there is not going to be a demand for 9L vehicles right away, right ?
......
Not really.

Banning 10+ year old cars today, means all cars registered between 2001 and 2006 are rendered obsolete and cannot be used.

What most of us are saying is that a sudden arbitrary ruling affects a lot of owners, and they suddenly find that their vehicle is worth only scrap value.

It would be more logical if a vehicle is checked for pollution after a certain age (say 10 years), as is done in many Western Countries, and registration is not renewed if they fail fitness and pollution check.

Here are some links
https://www.angloinfo.com/switzerlan...roadworthiness
http://www.acea.be/statistics/tag/ca...ge-vehicle-age
http://www.statista.com/statistics/2...nited-kingdom/

One interesting fact is that in UK the average age of cars is less than 10 years, so that may be the source of 10 years cutoff instituted by NGT. What NGT has to realise that there may be a substantial number of vehicles that have run less than 50,000km in 10 years and are in perfect mechanical condition. Scrapping such vehicles is a waste of National Resources.
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Old 19th July 2016, 20:22   #89
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Default Re: July 2016: NGT tells Delhi to deregister all Diesel Vehicles over 10 years old

The next sitting of NGT tribunal kochi bench is scheduled on 29th of July. The last sitting ended up in giving an illogical ruling to ban registration of all diesel vehicles of more than 2000 cc and ban on vehicles of more than ten years in use, entering major cities of KERALA. Thankfully government intervened and high court stayed the order for time being. Common man was hoping good sense would prevail and NGT would revisit this knee jerk order. Looking at the Delhi ruling it seems things are not looking good for the diesel vehicle owners and we are in for another major shock on 29th of July.
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Old 19th July 2016, 20:34   #90
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Originally Posted by ashokrajagopal View Post

Is that the PUC check ?
I dont know if the PUC allowed levels are equal to BS4 norms. I tend to believe it is not, how else would BS3 cars get a certificate. Unless that is done, we cannot ensure that the PUC checking is going in the right direction.

This is, after ensuring that PUC check is religiously executed.
Change the puc norms then, and then you have a legitimate non-nazi method to get polluting cars off the road. Enforce the puc. Is there any valid argument against that? Oh, that could mean work freedom monkey.
By the way, what would be acceptable numbers under bs4 at the puc? I would like to check what my old clunker is coughing out.
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