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Old 24th August 2016, 09:15   #46
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Default Re: Automatics growing in popularity, but still only 7% of the market

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Originally Posted by pgsagar View Post
Now someone here can step forward and say I spent X years in North America and I drove Y number of ATs there
Most of American cars are likely to be old generation CVTs or 4 or 5 speed torque convertor ATs.

One unique fun factor about the newer generation CVT (from Honda and probably others too, not sure) is the way it handles hill climbs and steep ghats - no other type of transmission can replicate this. It keeps the engine boiling at around 4000 RPM (close to peak torque) all through the climb for kilometres together! You are never out of the "power zone". All this without the infamous rubber-band effect.

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With Honda’s CVT, when the car determines it is driving in a sporty manner, such as on a winding mountain road, it automatically maintains a higher engine speed - a Honda-unique feature. This allows a sporty and smooth ride with deceleration that efficiently uses engine braking, stable cornering by maintaining driving power and powerful acceleration at the engine’s most powerful speed range.
http://world.honda.com/automobile-technology/CVT/


Since magazine road tests are not done on steep hills (especially for a CVT equipped car), you will never read about this in reviews.
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Old 24th August 2016, 09:27   #47
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Default Re: Automatics growing in popularity, but still only 7% of the market

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Most of American cars are likely to be old generation CVTs or 4 or 5 speed torque convertor ATs.

One unique fun factor about the newer generation CVT (from Honda and probably others too, not sure) is the way it handles hill climbs and steep ghats - no other type of transmission can replicate this. It keeps the engine boiling at around 4000 RPM (close to peak torque) all through the climb for kilometres together! You are never out of the "power zone". All this without the infamous rubber-band effect.

Attachment 1546088



http://world.honda.com/automobile-technology/CVT/


Since magazine road tests are not done on steep hills (especially for a CVT equipped car), you will never read about this in reviews.
I have heard rave feedbacks from Jazz CVT users, too. A friend was about to buy Baleno CVT but changed his mind only because Baleno CVT did not come with projector/DRL headlights (hope MUL guys read this). But now he says he is glad he bought Jazz. I'm yet to drive one. I will, to check out the hill climb feature. BTW, magazines seem to have this new-found affinity to Hyundai cars. No wonder none of them mentioned this.
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Old 24th August 2016, 10:50   #48
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Default Re: Automatics growing in popularity, but still only 7% of the market

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Originally Posted by i74js View Post
Now that the discussion is again on automatics, can I get information about Ford DCT in Ecosport? Even in the forum there are mixed opinions about reliability of transmission because it is with dry clutch and that there are issues with 1st and 2nd gear in bumper to bumper traffic, where at times the car launches without warning !

I am out in the market for an auto-box and am very keen on DCT instead of a CVT with seems to be a safe bet (except outright performance).

Would be very happy to get advise to firm up my decision. Availability is not an issue; both Ecosport AT and Jazz AT are readily available.
Do not worry about reliability when you consider Ford Ecosport DCT it is manufactured by GETRAG which also supplies transmissions to major European manufacturers, Moreover to top it up Ford is giving a 15 Year warranty or 100000 KMS whichever is earlier on its Dual clutch Transmission, So you should not worry much incase something goes wrong.
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Old 24th August 2016, 11:04   #49
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Default Re: Automatics growing in popularity, but still only 7% of the market

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Originally Posted by pgsagar View Post
I'm yet to drive one. I will, to check out the hill climb feature.
If you do, make sure you are in S mode. The D mode is the "Buddhist Monk" mode.

The ability to keep the engine at high RPM basically replicates the advantages of "heel-toe-downshift" in a manual - only here, there is no need to do Bharatnatyam with your hands and legs.

Subaru forums are the best for reading about performance/fun factor/slush-roading advantages of CVTs - because Subaru has moved to CVTs in a big way. And by any stretch of imagination, Subarus are not boring.
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Old 24th August 2016, 11:47   #50
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Default Re: Automatics growing in popularity, but still only 7% of the market

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Originally Posted by KarNut View Post
Do not worry about reliability when you consider Ford Ecosport DCT it is manufactured by GETRAG which also supplies transmissions to major European manufacturers, Moreover to top it up Ford is giving a 15 Year warranty or 100000 KMS whichever is earlier on its Dual clutch Transmission, So you should not worry much incase something goes wrong.
I have checked with dealership, no such warranty is offered on DCT transmission any more; the maximum possible is 2+2, total of 4 years warranty by paying approximately 11500 over and above.
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Old 24th August 2016, 11:52   #51
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Default Re: Automatics growing in popularity, but still only 7% of the market

The popularity of Automatic is still low (though growing fast) in India because of various reasons.
a) Clutch control and changing gears are considered the very basic of car driving, and when this is missing, it lacks the feel of driving for those who have driven manuals for quite a long time.
b) Automatics are costly (even by 50K in some cases) and are usually available only in mid variants, which means those who want an automatic would need to spend at least a lakh or two more than the basic version. Similarly there is a dearth of fully loaded rich automatics. (i.e top version automatic)
c) Learning curve - Though short, automatics do have a learning curve. If one has driven manual for a while then there are some habits one need to unlearn. e.g - One needs to "learn" to keep his left leg idle, and use the gear box less frequently and hand brake more frequently.

Apart from all these there are a few important reasons:
a) We are still more than 20 years behind in most of the areas than developed countries. Similarly the technology availability is also in the same angle.
b) VFM mentality - The mass market still does not accept something that is not available cheap. So, if there is a 1 lakh premium for an automatic, most would settle for a manual, though they can manage the finances by buying an automatic as well. Getting the best possible thing by stretching budgets to enjoy the life is a western habit.
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Old 24th August 2016, 12:28   #52
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Default Re: Automatics growing in popularity, but still only 7% of the market

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Originally Posted by smartcat View Post
Most of American cars are likely to be old generation CVTs or 4 or 5 speed torque convertor ATs.

One unique fun factor about the newer generation CVT (from Honda and probably others too, not sure) is the way it handles hill climbs and steep ghats - no other type of transmission can replicate this. It keeps the engine boiling at around 4000 RPM (close to peak torque) all through the climb for kilometres together! You are never out of the "power zone". All this without the infamous rubber-band effect.

http://world.honda.com/automobile-technology/CVT/


Since magazine road tests are not done on steep hills (especially for a CVT equipped car), you will never read about this in reviews.
I haven't driven my Jazz CVT on hilly roads yet, but what I found was that on 2 lane state highways where we need to accelerate/decelerate faster for overtaking, I found that the car held the rpm higher than usual in 'D' mode when there is a consistent strong throttle input. Maybe the system checks for consistent strong input on the throttle and switches to holding the rpm higher for quicker response.
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Old 24th August 2016, 15:09   #53
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Default Re: Automatics growing in popularity, but still only 7% of the market

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Originally Posted by smartcat View Post
One unique fun factor about the newer generation CVT (from Honda and probably others too, not sure) is the way it handles hill climbs and steep ghats - no other type of transmission can replicate this. It keeps the engine boiling at around 4000 RPM (close to peak torque) all through the climb for kilometres together! You are never out of the "power zone". All this without the infamous rubber-band effect.
smartcat, is this 'unique' feature really unique to Honda (and a world first) or do the dual clutch (DSG/DCT etc.) replicate this with the 'Sports' mode?
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Old 24th August 2016, 15:27   #54
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Default Re: Automatics growing in popularity, but still only 7% of the market

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Originally Posted by itwasntme View Post
smartcat, is this 'unique' feature really unique to Honda (and a world first) or do the dual clutch (DSG/DCT etc.) replicate this with the 'Sports' mode?
I know for a fact that Subaru's CVT too holds the revs at high engine RPM if you drive uphill or on winding roads quickly. Not sure about Nissan/Toyota CVTs - they might be tuned differently.

I don't think its possible (from technology point of view) for DSGs to hold revs at close to 4000 RPM (plus or minus 10%) all through. I think a DSG will downshift when you hit the brakes as you approach the corner and hence revs will drop momentarily (before rising up again, as you hit the accelerator).

But in a sportily tuned CVT, the gearbox will choose a progressively lower gear ratio, as you hit the brakes as you approach a corner, but still keep the RPM more or less at 4000 RPM. And as you accelerate out of the corner, the gearbox will choose a progressively higher gear ratio - all this while keeping the revs close to 4000 RPM.

However, do note that Honda CVT is still a dog when it comes to accelerating from standstill. DSGs and manuals still have a roughly 1 second advantage over the current gen sportily tuned CVTs. It's unlikely to ever make an appearance in sports cars in the current avatar.

Last edited by smartcat : 24th August 2016 at 15:32.
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Old 24th August 2016, 15:36   #55
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Default Re: Automatics growing in popularity, but still only 7% of the market

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Originally Posted by hybridpetrol View Post
The popularity of Automatic is still low (though growing fast) in India because of various reasons.
a) Clutch control and changing gears are considered the very basic of car driving, and when this is missing, it lacks the feel of driving for those who have driven manuals for quite a long time.
You forgot to prefix ''In my opinion", as I disagree with your statement. Cars are driven to get from point A to point B, in most of the cases.

Agree about other points but the learning curve part again is a perception. There is an initial inhibition, when you sit on the Automatic's driver seat for the 1st time. Then, it comes to you as naturally as gear and clutch sync came, when one learnt a manual.

Another point is the popularity of hiring drivers, so why give him the pleasure of driving Automatics, is what most of the buyers think and end up with a manual transmission.
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Old 24th August 2016, 16:02   #56
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Default Re: Automatics growing in popularity, but still only 7% of the market

Even thought there is growing demand for AT cars, the manufacturers are yet to realise the potential of this market.

I, for example, am in the market for a diesel AT (used) at around 8 lacs but my options are extremely limited.

1) Tiago(Too small)
2) Vento/Rapid(DSG issues)
3) Verna(Never wanted a Hyundai)
4) Scorpio(FE of 8 kmpl and multiple gearbox issues)

Some of the cars where I would like to see a diesel AT are:
1) Ecosport
2) Aspire
3) Jazz
4) City

It is a lost opportunity for the manufacturers.

Cheers.
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Old 24th August 2016, 16:19   #57
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Default Re: Automatics growing in popularity, but still only 7% of the market

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Originally Posted by riteshritesh View Post
You forgot to prefix ''In my opinion", as I disagree with your statement. Cars are driven to get from point A to point B, in most of the cases.

Agree about other points but the learning curve part again is a perception. There is an initial inhibition, when you sit on the Automatic's driver seat for the 1st time. Then, it comes to you as naturally as gear and clutch sync came, when one learnt a manual.
Of course, every statement that we mention here are based on one's own opinion, and yes - there can be disagreements
The learning curve is not steep and it is just a perception - agreed.
I have heard some friends and colleagues of mine wonder how they would keep their cars standstill on an incline - they obviously use clutch control to do this in their cars and hardly use handbrakes.
Such perceptions play a major role in the purchase decisions, though.
I have driven automatics in the past and they completely take the stress out of driving.

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Another point is the popularity of hiring drivers, so why give him the pleasure of driving Automatics, is what most of the buyers think and end up with a manual transmission.
True. If one is going to buy a C / D segment sedan / SUV, where both manual and automatic options are available, it makes sense from VFM point of view to buy a car with most rear seat comfort at as less price as possible.
All driver aids such as auto headlamps, auto wipers, MID indicators, multi function steering wheel etc do not make an economical sense.
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Old 24th August 2016, 17:33   #58
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Default Re: Automatics growing in popularity, but still only 7% of the market

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Originally Posted by speedmunster View Post
...
4) Scorpio(FE of 8 kmpl and multiple gearbox issues)..
Are you sure about this? I have two AT Scorpio (VLX 4x4 and S10) and have not encountered any issue as of now. I am aware of "few" issues reported "multiple" times; but yet to see multiple issues reported by multiple users.

Just for the sake of comparison, Scorpio AT is way ahead of TUV's AMT in terms of reliability (not to mention other parameters).

The DSI GB is extremely reliable as per my experience as I have tossed around my AT to various "not so friendly" places such as Leh expedition, Hatu peak, off-road tracks, Lakes, etc.

The city F.E. is almost 10KMPL and highway sees up-to 14KMPL(tank full method).

I may sound biased toward Scorpio AT but I think it is underrated for what it offers.
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Old 24th August 2016, 18:04   #59
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Default Re: Automatics growing in popularity, but still only 7% of the market

Whenever I meet someone I try explaining buy an AT car and these are the type of responses I receive:

Friends - AT is for old people, there is no fun in driving (that too from people driving Nano. Irony of the situation)

Uncles - will be expensive to maintain, MT is fun, resale not good (from uncle driving same santro for 8 years and over 1.3 lakh kms wants resale. Imagine!)

Colleagues - AT is not cool instead MT is the in thing - from people driving alto with oversize tires
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Old 25th August 2016, 09:36   #60
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Default Re: Automatics growing in popularity, but still only 7% of the market

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Originally Posted by hybridpetrol View Post
c) Learning curve - Though short, automatics do have a learning curve. If one has driven manual for a while then there are some habits one need to unlearn. e.g - One needs to "learn" to keep his left leg idle, and use the gear box less frequently and hand brake more frequently.
One needs to unlearn? This really beats me. Every two-wheeler motorcycle rider in this country makes a seemless comfortable switch from a geared motorcycles to an automatic Honda Activa without so much as batting an eyelid. Do they unlearn anything? In fact, differences are more glaring here. Activa's rear brake is where motorcycle's clutch is. Still, I haven't heard of one case where they say ,"Oh, I'm used to riding motorcycles all my life so I'm not sure how to ride this automatic scooter." I drove MT cars all my life until 2011 when I switched to an AT, a very basic automatic hatchback, A-Star. And it took me 10 minutes to get the full hang of the vehicle. In fact jumping from AT to MT will be difficult because of presence of an extra pedal and a stick. Not the other way around. People just talk things without giving it a try.
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