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Old 28th August 2016, 11:34   #16
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Default Re: So, just how "green" are Electric Vehicles (specifically in India)?

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Originally Posted by Holyghost View Post
Unfortunately most of the articles quoted are skewed to show that EV are more polluting......I have installed a 3KW grid tie solar setup on my roof and it costed me a little more than 2L. Exactly an year ago, the same setup costed 4L. With falling prices for greener energy, we do not have to continue to depend on the coal powered thermal plants for long. The world is moving towards greener energy.
Very valid issues, Holyghost! Out of sight, out of mind seems to be the mantra followed in this whole "save the planet" argument. The bigger the industry (and nothing comes close to the might & breadth of the energy lobby - fossil or nuclear - on the planet) the lower the decibels about their transgressions on environment/ecological issues

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ntal_disasters). And there are other kinds of man-made disasters as the link elaborates. Therefore to raise questions about the viability of EVs (at least at this juncture of our planet's evolution!) is inappropriate to say the least.

Why is there no comparable noise/discussions/debates on the R&D status and availability of fuel cells and their vehicular application? I wonder if its because the major patents of the technology is held by one corporation (Ballard) in Canada? As most folks know, fuel cells require hydrogen in a process (which is more or less, the reverse of electrolysis), to produce electrical power which in turn drives the cars wheels. The difference, at the core, between the two - fuel-cell cars and pure EVs - is that hydrogen is available in practically unlimited quantities (as in water) everywhere on the planet (there are no Saudi Arabias!) whereas Lithium (as in Li-ion) is among the rarest of elements.

Among the many issues knocking the commercial viability of FC cars is the hurdle of producing uncombined hydrogen on a global scale. The problem of commercial scale electrolysis, again using fossil fuels or solar energy, as the driver (http://qz.com/186432/why-hydrogen-po...on-musk-crazy/) for the production of hydrogen, remains a major issue.

But at the user end, for you and me, the only pollutant leaving the tail pipe of the FC car will be steam (H2O)!

Last edited by GTO : 29th August 2016 at 13:14. Reason: Reducing spacing
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Old 29th August 2016, 16:26   #17
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Default Re: So, just how "green" are Electric Vehicles (specifically in India)?

Great post, thanks for sharing. Does put a few things in perspective. Read about Tesla's acquisition of some solar company recently, would that change the equation somewhat?

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....
I have installed a 3KW grid tie solar setup on my roof and it costed me a little more than 2L. Exactly an year ago, the same setup costed 4L. With falling prices for greener energy, we do not have to continue to depend on the coal powered thermal plants for long. The world is moving towards greener energy.
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I also owned a 2KW solar and micro wind turbine grid installed in the outskirts of Mumbai. In 2006. 10 years later, after enjoying the benefits of never paying for lighting and ventilation, the prices have fallen so significantly that it makes for an obviously favorable case...
This is interesting guys. Can we have a separate thread where this can be explained more? I'm sure many here would be interested in such a setup.
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Old 29th August 2016, 16:44   #18
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Great post, thanks for sharing. Does put a few things in perspective. Read about Tesla's acquisition of some solar company recently, would that change the equation somewhat?
That company belonged to Elon Musk's brother-in-law IIRC and so it was already under Musk.
There is a very good article on Elon Musk at Wait-but-why and it tells you about every thing Musk is doing to get us to switch from fossil fuels. It's a pretty long article but definitely worth a read IMO.
That company used to provide home installations of rooftop solar systems. The system was completely maintained by the company and the buyer had the option to pay in EMIs. The way that worked out was that the EMIs were very close to what the usual electric bill used to be for the house. The company used to collect the subsidy from the government instead of the house owner but the house owner got completely hassle free upgrade to clean energy without any hefty initial investment.

He is already working on converting his Supercharger network to run on Solar Panels and that was always his plan. Even his brand new battery factory in Texas will run completely on solar energy.
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Old 29th August 2016, 23:46   #19
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Default Re: So, just how "green" are Electric Vehicles (specifically in India)?

See with regard to Hybrid and Electric vehicles vs Oil powered, you have to make one step in the right direction from ONE of the two places atleast to get the ball rolling. In this case increased adoption of EVs makes more sense as it will increase the demand for power and since natural resources are as it is limited and people DO want a greener energy source, Im sure it will increase the amount of Green Energy being produced and so on.

Also, wrt Solar Power, taking average values into account, say if I install a 1KW unit, roughly how many units of 'normal' power would that generate on a monthly basis ? Im unable to get the calculations down and Id appreciate a rough estimate
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Old 30th August 2016, 02:00   #20
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See with regard to Hybrid and Electric vehicles vs Oil powered, you have to make one step in the right direction from ONE of the two places atleast to get the ball rolling. In this case increased adoption of EVs makes more sense as it will increase the demand for power and since natural resources are as it is limited and people DO want a greener energy source, Im sure it will increase the amount of Green Energy being produced and so on.

Also, wrt Solar Power, taking average values into account, say if I install a 1KW unit, roughly how many units of 'normal' power would that generate on a monthly basis ? Im unable to get the calculations down and Id appreciate a rough estimate
http://solardirect.com/pv/systems/gt...ing-power.html - This is a pretty comprehensive guide to designing your solar system.

Another one which explains with examples-
https://livingonsolarpower.wordpress...ours-in-india/
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Old 30th August 2016, 05:58   #21
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Default Re: So, just how "green" are Electric Vehicles (specifically in India)?

A really nice initial write-up and follow-on discussion on this thread. Nice read on the other perspective of things. I think one should avoid the hype and evaluate properly the overall ecosystem before jumping into new things. So Electric Vehicles do help but in certain countries where the eco-system allows us to use this benefit.
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Old 30th August 2016, 13:29   #22
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Default Re: So, just how "green" are Electric Vehicles (specifically in India)?

Electric vehicles coupled with increased usage of renewables is the future we are looking at. I don't we need to worry a lot about increased burning of coal since Solar is very close to reaching grid parity in a lot of countries. A third variable is storage batteries which are again getting cheaper and cheaper with each passing year. So, you power your car with the energy stored in the batteries that would in turn be powered by solar panels on roof top. That's where we need to get at.
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Old 30th August 2016, 13:45   #23
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Default Re: So, just how "green" are Electric Vehicles (specifically in India)?

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This is interesting guys. Can we have a separate thread where this can be explained more? I'm sure many here would be interested in such a setup.

Ask and you shall receive Thread started on micro solar/ wind power plants to power your EV.

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/shifti...ml#post4045818
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Old 30th August 2016, 18:22   #24
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Default Re: So, just how "green" are Electric Vehicles (specifically in India)?

Science has always had a problem of the perfect illusion that EV's are green, help lower carbon emissions and make cities cleaner and quieter because the energy required to make the electric car in the first place.
EV's can make an impact in the carbon front only if they are powered by low-carbon electricity over their lifetime, which is rather rare in the current circumstances. It simply takes about twice as much energy to make an electric vehicle as it does a gas-powered one on a per-km basis. And thatís because electric cars have battery issues and lower lifetime mileage.
A British study with the tittle, "Shades of green" in 2013 said electric vehicles powered by coal-fired generation had four times the carbon emissions of vehicles fueled by low-carbon electricity. Which also means it would make more sense to drive them EV's in places like Iceland, Sweden, Brazil.
Many universities like UOIT are doing cutting edge research in EV's. As far as charging goes, there are stretches of road where wireless charging can be done. This is called "Dynamic wireless charging" being developed by Qualcomm.
Of course all this is a long way from being a viable reality but they are definitely starting steps.
As on the performance front, electric vehicles give instant power with almost no lag. With Tesla having developed the fastest accelerating vehicle and the electric SLS AMG being around for some time now, I do think we enthusiasts have a promising future with EV's.
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Old 30th August 2016, 18:46   #25
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Default Re: So, just how "green" are Electric Vehicles (specifically in India)?

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Electric vehicles coupled with increased usage of renewables is the future we are looking at. I don't we need to worry a lot about increased burning of coal since Solar is very close to reaching grid parity in a lot of countries. A third variable is storage batteries which are again getting cheaper and cheaper with each passing year. So, you power your car with the energy stored in the batteries that would in turn be powered by solar panels on roof top. That's where we need to get at.
Technology will definitely evolve making electric cars more viable, even the movement of wheels and other energy released during drive would probably be harnessed back and used to charge reserve batteries, technology needs volumes to break even, Tesla took a brave step and stands rewarded, maybe we see a philanthropist leading the next wave of driverless, anti collision, environment friendly vehicles.
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Old 1st September 2016, 11:53   #26
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Default Re: So, just how "green" are Electric Vehicles (specifically in India)?

Agreed that EVs are not completely-green, but far from it. But I think what Tesla especially has done is show the way forward with realistic range, awesome power and beautiful looking cars. Compared to the ugly looking EVs from before, this is actually a desirable car. I also think the battery technology improvements are a breakthrough, making EVs a much more realistic proposition. But as always it is a WIP and we will get there, have to get there eventually.

I also think that centralizing the pollution and emissions (as in the case of Power plants) is good in a way because then reuse of wasted energy (heat lost, pressure lost in exhaust gas) can be made much more efficiently and made more commercially viable. It is better to find ways to improve the power plants than to have multiple small polluting engines running around with no real commercially viable methods to reuse wasted energy. For example, it makes sense to recover waste heat from the exhaust chimney of a power plant than to recover waste heat generated from the engine bay or exhaust pipes of a car.

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Old 1st September 2016, 13:12   #27
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Default Re: So, just how "green" are Electric Vehicles (specifically in India)?

Tesla just released a version of the Model S that can go 315 miles on a single overnight charge. That's 500 kms!!!!
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Old 3rd September 2016, 01:16   #28
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Default Re: So, just how "green" are Electric Vehicles (specifically in India)?

I think electric traction holds a lot of promise irrespective of whether the vehicle is a pure electric or a hybrid. Gearboxes, drive shaft(s), differential etc are heavy and have mechanical losses. Like what turbochargers did for improving diesel engine efficiency and performance, I think electric transmission is the next big efficiency and performance improvement step. Some super car manufacturers have already indicated that they may develop electric transmissions ( hybrid cars) for better performance. Having had the occasion to use a Prius for a few months, I like the hybrid a lot.
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Old 3rd September 2016, 07:31   #29
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Default Re: So, just how "green" are Electric Vehicles (specifically in India)?

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Agreed that EVs are not completely-green, but far from it. But I think what Tesla especially has done is show the way forward with realistic range, awesome power and beautiful looking cars. Compared to the ugly looking EVs from before, this is actually a desirable car. I also think the battery technology improvements are a breakthrough, making EVs a much more realistic proposition. But as always it is a WIP and we will get there, have to get there eventually.
I also think that centralizing the pollution and emissions (as in the case of Power plants) is good in a way because then reuse of wasted energy (heat lost, pressure lost in exhaust gas) can be made much more efficiently and made more commercially viable. It is better to find ways to improve the power plants than to have multiple small polluting engines running around with no real commercially viable methods to reuse wasted energy. For example, it makes sense to recover waste heat from the exhaust chimney of a power plant than to recover waste heat generated from the engine bay or exhaust pipes of a car.
Very well put! All the points mentioned/raised are valid and spot on. And energy recovery from large, centralized polluters is very much a work in progress - all (diesel powered) ocean going ships have equipment in place for energy recovery (exhaust gas boilers, downstream of the t/chargers) from the exhaust gas. Boiler flue gas scrubbers (for removing the sulphur content) is also common on board today in order to remove the same being discharged into the atmosphere (acid rain). I dont know of any comparable system, scaled down for cars, for energy recovery.
In this context, as I mentioned earlier on, the only pollutant at the individual level, is steam from the exh. pipe of a fuel cell driven car!

Last edited by shashanka : 3rd September 2016 at 07:35.
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Old 3rd September 2016, 09:14   #30
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Default Re: So, just how "green" are Electric Vehicles (specifically in India)?

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I dont know of any comparable system, scaled down for cars, for energy recovery.
My point is that it does not exist on the scale of cars because of the complications of added weight and space constraints, not to mention the relative vibrations and movement such a system would have to be braced for in a car compared to a ship or a fixed building. Also the scale would be too small for it to be commercially viable. All the emission controls were introduced by rule of law rather than by the manufacturers themselves in the hope of protecting the environment.
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