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Old 5th September 2016, 11:33   #1
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Default Rumour: Mahindra to continue 2.0 litre engine in the Scorpio & XUV500 @ NCR

Mahindra had responded very swiftly to the ban on 2000cc + diesel engines in NCR by launching the XUV5OO and the Scorpio with the sub 2.0 litre engines.

"The Mahindra XUV500 and Scorpio contribute to nearly 40% of the company’s monthly domestic sales at around 20,000 units, of which around 4% comes from the National Capital Region" (Source: Rushlane.com)

The 2.0 litre engine (branded as W1.99 in the XUV) is a 1997 cc engine compared to the 2179 cc engine. An exact difference of 182 cc. I'll leave the discussion on how that made a difference to pollution levels to the thread dedicated to this subject!

The engine must have been in development for quite a few years and I'm quite sure is not a reaction to this ban. The development, strategy of use, testing, etc would have been in progress for at least more than a year. The strategy of use (as per GTOs post elsewhere on the forum) was that the engine was being developed to launch it in International markets where additional taxes apply to 2000+ cc engines.

This ban surely came to Mahindra's advantage and provided them a windfall gain. Toyota claims its losses were Rs. 1700+ crores, not to mention the job losses and unpredictability it creates in the investment market.

The masterstroke:
  • The engine specs of both the Scorpio and the XUV remain unchanged and consequently no noticeable difference in how the SUVs perform.
  • The new automatic Aisin gearbox was mated to the W 1.99 XUV5OO shortly after the launch.
  • The NCR buyers will not feel shortchanged due to the same features and specs being offered
  • 1% cess avoidance for NCR making the products even more price competitive.
  • The engine is supposedly being developed for international markets so might be here to stay

The complaints/worries:
  • XUV not launched with the AWD option
  • XUV W10 manual misses out on the Brake Energy Regeneration system.
  • Scorpio not launched in the AT version (can someone confirm this?) - not sure if the 2.2 AT is being offered after the ban has been lifted
  • If the 2.0 litre engine is discontinued (against what the rumour suggests) then the resale value might get affected . Spare part availability and servicing will also be an issue outside NCR

Different people have different opinions on the last point since the differences in 2 engines are not clearly known. My guess is it could only be a difference in bore/stroke while all other components and design would largely remain the same. Would be keen to hear insights if anyone has them.

Scorpio 1.99: The new engine generates the same 280nm @ 1800-2800rpm : exactly the same as the 2.2 litre engine.

XUV W1.99: The new 1997 cc engine generates 320nm @ 1600-2800 rpm of torque against the 330 nm in the same rpm range that the 2179cc engine generates. An ignorable reduction of 10nm.


If dealers in Delhi are to be believed Mahindra has already confirmed that they will continue the W1.99 engine in NCR despite the ban being lifted.

There are advantages to this, including the fact that the XUV and Scorpio will have a 1% price advantage (once you include insurance and registration value) compared to the competitors which are mostly 2 litre+. The obvious disadvantage being Mahindra will have exactly same products with 2 engines - not sure if (or how) it affects economies of scale.


Disclosure:

In the interest of full disclosure (!) I must admit to buying the Automatic W.199 XUV after the ban was lifted for a few reasons including the fact that Mahindra was offering very compelling discounts in NCR and that I desperately wanted an Automatic transmission. I also had to replace my Mahindra Scorpio 2.6 which was nearing 9 years. An XUV AT was a natural and worthy upgrade considering I've been very satisfied with the Scorpio. Will start a thread shortly to track ownership.

My vote is that the W1.99 is here to stay. Time will tell if going for the W1.99 was the right decision.

The new upgrade Automatic W 1.99 XUV W8 :
Rumour: Mahindra to continue 2.0 litre engine in the Scorpio & XUV500 @ NCR-img20160828wa0015-002.jpg

P.S : Time to change my signature to "Feeling down, buckle up" ?

Last edited by Sting : 5th September 2016 at 11:37.
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Old 5th September 2016, 12:02   #2
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Default re: Rumour: Mahindra to continue 2.0 litre engine in the Scorpio & XUV500 @ NCR

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sting View Post
Mahindra had responded very swiftly to the ban on 2000cc + diesel engines in NCR by launching the XUV5OO and the Scorpio with the sub 2.0 litre engines.

"The Mahindra XUV500 and Scorpio contribute to nearly 40% of the company’s monthly domestic sales at around 20,000 units, of which around 4% comes from the National Capital Region" (Source: Rushlane.com)


P.S : Time to change my signature to "Feeling down, buckle up" ?
I don't understand, why Mahindra will produce 2 sets of Engines for the same car, won't that increase the production cost? What will be interesting to know is, how are these 2 Engines different? Is the block different or the Head as well?

Going a little deeper, then the intake Oil capacity or Coolant capacity, ECM etc.. would be also changed. Would increase the Production and Supply chain costs.

Last edited by GTO : 5th September 2016 at 17:30. Reason: Typos
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Old 5th September 2016, 23:44   #3
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Default Re: Rumour: Mahindra to continue 2.0 litre engine in the Scorpio & XUV500 @ NCR

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sting View Post
Different people have different opinions on the last point since the differences in 2 engines are not clearly known. My guess is it could only be a difference in bore/stroke while all other components and design would largely remain the same. Would be keen to hear insights if anyone has them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by amitpunjani View Post
What will be interesting to know is, how are these 2 Engines different? Is the block different or the Head as well?
Already shared the difference in the thread (Mahindra Scorpio & XUV500 get new 1.99L mHawk diesel engine).

Quote:
engine has been downsized by reducing the stroke. Down to 88mm from the original 96mm of the 2.2L engine. New engine is 1997cc and the power output remains the same.
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Old 6th September 2016, 16:02   #4
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Default Re: Rumour: Mahindra to continue 2.0 litre engine in the Scorpio & XUV500 @ NCR

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sting View Post
The strategy of use (as per GTOs post elsewhere on the forum) was that the engine was being developed to launch it in International markets where additional taxes apply to 2000+ cc engines.
Yep, as told to me by Mahindra's CEO.

Quote:
There are advantages to this, including the fact that the XUV and Scorpio will have a 1% price advantage (once you include insurance and registration value) compared to the competitors which are mostly 2 litre+.
1% on a 10 lakh Scorpio is 10,000 rupees. On the highest variant, it's 15,000. That's hardly reason enough to keep & support an additional engine on sale.

What are we missing that the car companies aren't? Even Tata continues to test its <2.0 liter diesel. Do the manufacturers expect the silly ban to come again? Do they expect the 2+ liter taxes to go higher than this 1% cess?
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Old 6th September 2016, 21:03   #5
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Default Re: Rumour: Mahindra to continue 2.0 litre engine in the Scorpio & XUV500 @ NCR

Other than legislation its very difficult to figure out reasons for such intensive investment in a 182 cc reduction.

Would be a very wild speculation but what if the 1.99 is launched across the country. That still would mean making a perfectly good 2.2mHawk engine obsolete.

Nope- I'm just talking/thinking in circles.

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Old 6th September 2016, 21:27   #6
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Default Re: Rumour: Mahindra to continue 2.0 litre engine in the Scorpio & XUV500 @ NCR

Everything about taxes, international markets etc is agreeable.

But why did Mahindra develop the 2.2 if they were intending to sell the 2.0 abroad? They could have just developed the 2.0 in the first place.

OR- Did they develop the 2.2, work on it and decided to derive a 2.0 with a reduced stroke when they were developing the XUV ?
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Old 9th September 2016, 10:43   #7
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Default Re: Rumour: Mahindra to continue 2.0 litre engine in the Scorpio & XUV500 @ NCR

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Originally Posted by landcruiser123 View Post

But why did Mahindra develop the 2.2 if they were intending to sell the 2.0 abroad? They could have just developed the 2.0 in the first place.

OR- Did they develop the 2.2, work on it and decided to derive a 2.0 with a reduced stroke when they were developing the XUV ?
The 2.2mHawk was derived from the 2.6CRDE which was derived from the 2.6 Turbo. Engine development has been evolutionary in nature and one thing that has definitely improved with Mahindra is their ability to consistently improve their engines every few years.

The 2.2 was launched circa 2008 so the development would have started probably around 2005/6. The 2.0 development started in 2014, a full 8 years after.

My guess is that the evolutionary process took its time and hence the progress from 2.6 Turbo -> 2.6 CRDE -> 2.2mHawk -> 2.0 mHawk.

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Old 9th September 2016, 11:54   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sting View Post
The 2.2mHawk was derived from the 2.6CRDE which was derived from the 2.6 Turbo. Engine development has been evolutionary in nature and one thing that has definitely improved with Mahindra is their ability to consistently improve their engines every few years.

The 2.2 was launched circa 2008 so the development would have started probably around 2005/6. The 2.0 development started in 2014, a full 8 years after.

My guess is that the evolutionary process took its time and hence the progress from 2.6 Turbo -> 2.6 CRDE -> 2.2mHawk -> 2.0 mHawk.

Cheers,
Sting
The 2.2 was designed by AVL of Austria. This is a global engine whose derivatives are used in a lot of cars by many different manufacturers. You'll find variants of this engine in the Safari, Aria, Freelander, Evoque, Discovery and XF.

The old 2.6 was based on Mahindra's tractor engine. It guzzled quite a bit of fuel but was insanely torquey, extremely reliable and had a very long life. The 2.2 is kind of fragile in comparison.
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