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Old 20th September 2016, 20:04   #46
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Default Re: Global NCAP: Updated Renault Kwid and Honda Mobilio tested

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Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR View Post
Hard to conclude anything since video shows different angles, but I think the kids are moving along with the seat in V variant, but thrown bit more out of the seat in the base variant. The front facing kid is almost hanging on the belt in the base variant.

Not sure why. Seatbelt changes perhaps?
Quote:
Originally Posted by amalji View Post
Good point. The one with airbags comes with pretensioner seatbelts as well while the non-airbag variant doesn't seem to have it. But, I'm not sure if the middle row seatbelts also come with pretensioners.
As rightly pointed out:

Global NCAP: Updated Renault Kwid and Honda Mobilio tested-untitled.gif

Pre-tensioner seatbelts play a big role in keeping you stuck to your seat in case of a collision.

This is a significant feature upgrade in the recently-launched Kwid 1.0L.


Quote:
Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR View Post
1. Which variant Mobilio sold in India has a black roof and black mirror caps? IIRC, not even the RS had it. This is V variant as per Honda press statement.
I don't think it has a black roof, but the Mobilio base model (E MT) comes with black ORVM covers.

Global NCAP: Updated Renault Kwid and Honda Mobilio tested-2.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR View Post
2. Weight difference between E and V variants is 30kg as per brochure, but the cars tested had a 130 kg difference approx. Even if one is a petrol, and other is a diesel, difference is 115kg as per brochure.
1324 kgs is the crash test weight, which is inclusive of the weight of the dummies (about 193 kgs, in case of Mobilio E MT). This increases to a 290-kg(!) difference for the Mobilio V MT.

Heavier dummies?

Or, higher variants get better, stronger, thicker body panels, undetectable by weight machines?

Last edited by RavenAvi : 20th September 2016 at 20:09.
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Old 20th September 2016, 20:25   #47
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Default Re: Global NCAP: Updated Renault Kwid and Honda Mobilio tested

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Originally Posted by amalji View Post
But, I'm not sure if the middle row seatbelts also come with pretensioners.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RavenAvi View Post
Pre-tensioner seatbelts play a big role in keeping you stuck to your seat in case of a collision.
Pre-tensioner seatbelts yes, but only for the front seats I believe? It's written in the brochure that way.

However, the V variant does get a sliding middle row, compared to the fixed ones on the E. So it might have availability built in.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RavenAvi View Post

1324 kgs is the crash test weight, which is inclusive of the weight of the dummies (about 193 kgs, in case of Mobilio E MT). This increases to a 290-kg(!) difference for the Mobilio V MT.

Heavier dummies?

Or, higher variants get better, stronger, thicker body panels, undetectable by weight machines?
Dummies should have a standard weight and similar video and sensor equipment goes into all the cars, as far as I know.

No way to find out if the V variant was a petrol or diesel either!
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Old 20th September 2016, 21:40   #48
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Default Re: Global NCAP: Updated Renault Kwid and Honda Mobilio tested

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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
And everyone needs to understand that ABS & Airbags don't make an unsafe vehicle safe. What's equally / more important is the structural safety offered. As the NCAP has repeatedly said earlier, some Indian cars are so weak that airbags don't make a difference at all.


All other things being the same, this is generally true. In a 120 km/h crash, you'd rather be in an S-Class than an A-Class.
I agree with you GTO. As I have mentioned in one of the post on this thread, manufaturers should stop this dual policy of having one car structure for India and another (stronger one) for exports. Since many people buy the base versions the upcoming Bharat NCAP should test the car without airbags and with airbags to test the structure strength and safety provided by airbags seperately.

I am sure S class will be better tha A class, but I am not so sure about Mahindra Scorpio and Bolero.
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Old 20th September 2016, 23:09   #49
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Default Re: Global NCAP: Updated Renault Kwid and Honda Mobilio tested

The only good part in the mobilio video is that the passenger cell does not show any deflection. Even the A pillars & doors don't seem to get deformed.
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Old 21st September 2016, 05:57   #50
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Default Re: Global NCAP: Updated Renault Kwid and Honda Mobilio tested

Isn't this what is expected when cars are built out of extremely low-cost platforms?
Honda used to boast of having safe structure with the second and third generation City and Jazz models.

As discussed by many others here, It's not just safety features (like ABS, Airbags) alone that determine how safe the vehicle is.

A good way to make an average customer aware of the safety is by imposing better marketing stunts?

May be a Govt rule to have a mandatory safety rating sticker on every car sold, just like how electronic appliances these days get energy savings ratings. The ratings would be loud and vehement, as to what the particular product is capable of! That way at the least, may be the buyer starts considering products with better ratings, eventually.

Last edited by vish_wagon : 21st September 2016 at 06:00.
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Old 21st September 2016, 10:08   #51
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Default Re: Global NCAP: Updated Renault Kwid and Honda Mobilio tested

Renault gets these umpteen chances to help themselves and they keep blowing it. I really thought Kwid IV will fare better than that.

There is no point in looking at the poor ratings from an Alto or Eon or the local legislation for any justification. The Kwid really moved the playing field so high with its design compared to competition. A design which is highly practical and attractive at the same time. I think it really can sell across the globe and not just developing markets. And its just too sad that Renault cannot match their competence in design with build on the car.


Kudos to Global NCAP though. They are relentless in their pursuit for #safercarsforindia.

All our local manufacturers be it Maruti, Hyundai or Mahindra should keep this in mind when they release the next India specific model.
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Old 21st September 2016, 10:31   #52
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Default Re: Global NCAP: Updated Renault Kwid and Honda Mobilio tested

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Originally Posted by deetjohn View Post
All our local manufacturers be it Maruti, Hyundai or Mahindra should keep this in mind when they release the next India specific model.
Why would they?

All the cars that fared well in the crash tests have either flopped or struggling to stay relevant. Etios, Polo, Figo and now Mobilio. And most of the cars that failed remain unaffected. Swift, Alto, Kwid, Celerio, Scorpio, Grand i10 etc. Goes to show that none of these really matter when it comes to actual sales.

They couldn't care less, unless legislation makes crash tests mandatory.

PS- I've said this before, but the situation demands it. Full marks to Toyota and VW for making the safety features standard across the range, a courtesy none of the other brands showed towards our market.

Last edited by CrAzY dRiVeR : 21st September 2016 at 10:33.
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Old 21st September 2016, 10:39   #53
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Default Re: Global NCAP: Updated Renault Kwid and Honda Mobilio tested

Honda India calls for re-examination of tax structure on cars
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/...w/54438058.cms

Quote:
Honda Cars India President & CEO Yoichiro Ueno said that in the light of the safety regulations coming in for vehicles from next year, the government here should re-examine the tax structure which currently stands in favour of smaller cars.

Ueno said, "Longer cars have a more stable body structure, that absorbs shock better. In light of the new realities emerging in India, it will be good to re-examine the tax structure which currently makes small cars more attractive." Excise duty on small cars currently stand at 12.5% in India compared to 24% and more for larger vehicles.
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Old 21st September 2016, 10:43   #54
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Default Re: Global NCAP: Updated Renault Kwid and Honda Mobilio tested

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Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR View Post
Why would they?

All the cars that fared well in the crash tests have either flopped or struggling to stay relevant. Etios, Polo, Figo and now Mobilio. And most of the cars that failed remain unaffected. Swift, Alto, Kwid, Celerio, Scorpio, Grand i10 etc. Goes to show that none of these really matter when it comes to actual sales.
Yes, sadly it will not affect the local sales here.

But if these failures go on like this for long, soon none of these manufacturers will be able to export cars from India. Our country's claim as a global manufacturing hub for 'budget cars' is at a big risk here. For instance, if I were to buy a car in the UK right now, I would keep all those exported out from India off my list.

And in the long term, that is going to affect the competence of the local manufacturers and suppliers alike.

Edit:
Quote:
Originally Posted by smartcat View Post
Honda India calls for re-examination of tax structure on cars
Well! That's a smoke screen right there.

A Toyota Liva is also a small car with a very stubby bonnet and large cabin and its got 4 stars.

Last edited by deetjohn : 21st September 2016 at 10:52. Reason: Adding quote.
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Old 21st September 2016, 10:57   #55
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Default Re: Global NCAP: Updated Renault Kwid and Honda Mobilio tested

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Originally Posted by deetjohn View Post
But if these failures go on like this for long, soon none of these manufacturers will be able to export cars from India. Our country's claim as a global manufacturing hub for 'budget cars' is at a big risk here. For instance, if I were to buy a car in the UK right now, I would keep all those exported out from India off my list.
These NCAP flop shows and the subsequent media coverage would be conveying only one message to the outside world -

"Made (cheaply) in India. Don't touch us, even with a barge pole, if you value safety."

All this, while the paying Indian customer goes about his merry, oblivious way of choosing & buying.
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Old 21st September 2016, 11:18   #56
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Default Re: Global NCAP: Updated Renault Kwid and Honda Mobilio tested

Quote:
Originally Posted by deetjohn View Post
Yes, sadly it will not affect the local sales here.

But if these failures go on like this for long, soon none of these manufacturers will be able to export cars from India. Our country's claim as a global manufacturing hub for 'budget cars' is at a big risk here. For instance, if I were to buy a car in the UK right now, I would keep all those exported out from India off my list.

And in the long term, that is going to affect the competence of the local manufacturers and suppliers alike.
I don't think that is bound to happen. They are more knowledgeable buyers and they have their own safety rating as well to depend on. Merely going by country of manufacture isn't going to help them.

And it is not like the manufacturers cannot produce good cars, they just skimp on a few things since our country's lax regulations let them do it.

We blindly adopt a lot of western practices in a jiffy. I hope we do that for NCAP ratings as well. If it increases the cost of the car, so be it. The cost of the cars have increased over a period of time and people will eventually come to accept it.

It is not like there is a dearth of cars on the roads right now.

I appreciate Toyota, VW for their budget cars confirm to International Safety Standards.

Shame on others who cannot.
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Old 21st September 2016, 11:28   #57
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Default Re: Global NCAP: Updated Renault Kwid and Honda Mobilio tested

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Originally Posted by deetjohn View Post
And in the long term, that is going to affect the competence of the local manufacturers and suppliers alike.
Mostly the reason why Hyundai moved away from this policy. And even Suzuki makes the European Baleno in Hungary if I remember correctly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by smartcat View Post
Honda India calls for re-examination of tax structure on cars
What would they suggest regarding Polo then? I'm not really getting convinced about this test, even after trying hard not to look beyond the good interests that GlobalNCAP is showing towards our market.

1. Selection of Mobilio for the tests, as mentioned in my first post. Surprising but ok.
2. The claimed V variant has extras like black roof and black mirror caps not present in the Indian market. Still fine.
3. Weight difference between tested models is against the kerb weight mentioned in brochures. May be some other technicalities that I don't know.

Above points were mentioned earlier. Now to add to the confusion.

4. Now Honda is lobbying on the length as an indication of the strength of cars. Possibly lucky to have the Mobilio selected from its range, and they see the opportunity to strike against the hated sub 4m reforms.

5. The whole tone of results announcement, as against earlier results.

This is how they announced the result for Polo. It was announced "All the cars selected by Global NCAP for testing in a frontal impact at 64km/h received zero-star adult protection ratings." (Including Polo). The same article however noted that since Polo standard variant was withdrawn by VW and airbags made mandatory in all variants, Global NCAP agreed to test it and rated it 4 stars.

Fair enough. As they usually test the base variant. In the case of Toyota as well, they made the airbags standard and requested for a test, and since it's the base variant now, it was announced as a 4 star car. "India’s Toyota Etios Achieves 4 Stars In Global NCAP Crash Test"

In this case of Mobilio, they tested the base variant and rated it zero stars. But accepted Honda's request to test the airbags version to "show the benefits of these safety systems". Mind you, the features were not made standard like other cars, but the published article is titled "An encouraging showing from the Honda Mobilio"

Weird.

Last edited by CrAzY dRiVeR : 21st September 2016 at 11:35.
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Old 21st September 2016, 11:35   #58
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Default Re: Global NCAP: Updated Renault Kwid and Honda Mobilio tested

Another strange tidbit about these crash tests - Euro NCAP asks the manufacturer for information about the best-selling variant. And then they crash test that particular variant!

http://www.euroncap.com/en/about-eur...ion-explained/

Quote:
When a car has been nominated for testing, Euro NCAP asks the manufacturer for information about the best-selling variant and the fitment of safety equipment across Europe. From this information the test variant is derived.

In general, the test variant must have safety equipment fitted as standard. In exceptional cases, Euro NCAP allows optional technology to be fitted on the test variant, but only if the option is available on a high number of cars sold and only for a short introduction period. From 2016, all cars have a basic rating, for which Euro NCAP uses a car fitted only with standard equipment. Some cars also have an optional, second star rating for which a car fitted with an additional ‘safety pack’ is used. For previous years, Euro NCAP tested cars which, in general, had only standard safety equipment. In exceptional cases, Euro NCAP allowed optional technology to be fitted on the test variant, but only if the option was available on a high number of cars sold and only for a short introduction period.
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Old 21st September 2016, 11:36   #59
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Default Re: Global NCAP: Updated Renault Kwid and Honda Mobilio tested

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Originally Posted by sun_king View Post
The Kwid and the Mobilio were tested and the results are far from encouraging.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dZired View Post
Global NCAP has put the updated, top-spec variant of the Kwid through the frontal collision test, where it scored a 1 star rating for both adult occupant protection
Quote:
Originally Posted by NiInJa View Post
Good to see the new Kwid's front structure not crumpling the way the first one did. Should praise Renault for constantly updating the car in such a short span
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Originally Posted by Vigkey View Post
an improved and revised and worked upon 4th version Kwid could only manage 1 star.
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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Still better than its direct competition that has gotten all of 0 stars.
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Originally Posted by Vigkey View Post
While I appreciate Renault going forward and trying to improve the structural safety we should not forget how they tried to involve in an absolutely condemn-able and fraudulent attempt to only strengthen the structure in the driver side.
Am I the only one smelling something foul ?? The scoring for Renault KWID for Adult Occupant Protection is 0.00 out of maximum possible 17.00 points. As per NCAP Rating system, the score becomes zero if chest compression on impact is severe. GNCAP noted the same for KWID : "the protection to the chest due to high chest compression was poor and the passenger’s chest received weak protection as well". Yet it is given1-star.

As per my limited understanding of NCAP system, no star should have been given (similar to Honda Mobilio without Airbags).


Last edited by AutoNoob : 21st September 2016 at 11:54. Reason: added my opinion.
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Old 21st September 2016, 12:09   #60
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Default Re: Global NCAP: Updated Renault Kwid and Honda Mobilio tested

For all the flak the company has received for it's ungainly, naked spot welds in most of it's recent offerings, Honda's technology actually makes it's cars more safe. They are also a critical part of the ACE (Advanced Compatibility Engineering) body structures Honda advertises as the key safety factor for it's cars. (Source)

Quote:
These small, electrically applied bonds are critically important; theyíre essentially places where separate panels have been fused together. Theyíre probably the easiest way of holding sheet-metal components together and they hold fast even under trying conditions. Spot welds are also a key reason why this companyís vehicles are so safe.

Marc Ernst, chief engineer and large project leader at Honda said theyíve implemented proprietary technology with these metal-to-metal connections.

ďItís an exclusive technology that I canít tell you about but I know that itís something that we own so itís really important.
Everything is in the details, itís how you do your spot welds, itís how you do the actual parts and itís how you do every little detail about when things crack or break [during a crash].
You have to have a good understanding, an understanding of how things can change in that crash and making sure you manage all the different modes to get the best possible performance.
Thatís mostly what we do, and then we also combine it with really good simulation and within simulation you can test all the different variations.Ē

Bringing all of this together maybe Honda hasnít revolutionized the simple spot weld; perhaps what theyíve done is a better job of learning how these joints perform in a crash and then applying them to the optimum places in a vehicle.
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