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Old 20th November 2016, 10:43   #61
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Talking Re: Airbags made mandatory for new cars from October 2017

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Originally Posted by jetsetgo08 View Post
Unfortunately not everyone can afford a structurally well built European car.
October 2016 sales figures say that a total of 2,76,990 cars were sold in Indian market as per T-BHP Octbober 2016 car sales figures which can be found here (October 2016 : Indian Car Sales Figures & Analysis).

Well built European cars start at a price point of say 5.5 lac (Let's start with Punto petrol). So Excluding the cars like Alto, Wagon-R, Omni, Eeco, i10, Celerio, Eon, Brio, Datsun Go, Go+, Redi-GO, Renault Kwid, Nano, Tiago, Indica, and taking 30% of sales of Swift, Ritz (only 5 sold), Grand i10 into account (They won't be 30% but I give you the benefit of doubt).

A total of 97,670 people bought the cars from the segments or at the price point where one can't buy a well built European car or a respectable scoring Japanese car (Liva?) in terms of safety. That means only 35.26% of the total buyer in India bought the cars from these segments. What about the remaining 64.74% of the buyers? In terms of numbers there are 1,79,320 buyers who could afford a safe and strongly built European car but a majority of them haven't. Here the saving grace is that in the higher segment the cars normally are well built and safer, if they weren't then buyers would have any ways opted for more features giving the contract of their safety to Nimbu mirchi and the idol they normally install in the center of the dash.

Hence proved, many can afford the safer cars but they don't have safety at the top of their priority list.

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Off-topic: How does one learn the art of safe high-speed swerving/steering during emergencies by reflex?
Experience does that for you.

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Originally Posted by Turbohead View Post
So is ABS or airbags more important? I think both are equally important but common sense and general safety is way more important. We definitely need to improve our testing procedures.!
This is indeed where the govt needs to work - on the drivers.

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Originally Posted by fighterace View Post
Given that the maximum permissible speed limit on Indian highways is 80 kmph
With due respect; and even more, Yamuna expressway already has a speed limit of 100 kph and Govt. is planning to further revise it. So your first statement holds no water on this one. How many times you, yourself drive under 100 kph on an empty 4 lane highway? Let's not be ideologists and discuss what we and other road users in our country actually do on the roads. That is exactly where my argument makes a case for itself.

Since you have taken an effort to read me (Many people get headache after reading my poor English) so it is my duty to 'try to' satisfy you with me reply. 80 kph means 80/3.6 = 22.22 meter per second. Now if a truck, car, motorcycle or even I appear 40 meters ahead of your car while you are doing 80 kph then if you aren't able to steer away then no matter your car has ABS or not, you will have to file an insurance claim. So ABS + Alert driver with trained reflexes is the combination needed.

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I would like to know where you did your braking tests.
Here is the link to video when I did it from 80-0 in Haridwar with temperature being 34 degree centigrade and surface being warm and completely flat for perfect braking performance:


The distance may look small in video but it was long enough in itself. Rest I must accept that this particular car has exceptional braking performance. Questions are welcome.

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Also, going by your logic, the best thing to do is to limit the speeds of all vehicles sold in the country to 60 kmph.
I guess you have been unable to make the difference between what I wrote and what you interpreted, maybe my poor communication skills are responsible for this. So let me put it down in a single line for you, with a word of apology for not putting it down in right way previously:
"An alert driver with trained reflexes is the key to safety, a novice driving a car with ABS has a lesser probability of avoiding an accident as compared to an alert and trained driver. This is where airbags make a stronger case for themselves as compared to ABS, because no matter the person behind the wheel is an under age, over age, novice or expert; if the airbags are functional then they will perform their task".

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Dangerous driving is the biggest cause of accidents in this country.
Not only this country, everywhere on this earth that is.

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keep in mind that most fatalities on the roads happen OUTSIDE cars, not in them. How does air-bags deal with that?
I request you to reread the thread title. Won't go off topic pondering and replying over this specific point.

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any changes that make cars prohibitively expensive will result in more fatalities, not less.
Please read the last line for name of the gentleman whose words are same as yours. Now since he is heading a big auto company; he is bound to have some intelligence. I must appreciate you for stating such a deep statement. He will also appreciate that at least someone on this forum has a set of thoughts which are coherent with his.

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We need to take a India specific approach rather than do the bidding of foreign component suppliers.
Then suggest the approach with a thorough analysis. I promise to make sure that you get an appointment with Mr. Gadkari.

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Originally Posted by PCS View Post
What will happen to maruti omni?
Mr. R.C. Bhargav will make sure that Omni passes it. Either by some lobbying or by his statements.

Spare me guys for this long post, it's a Sunday and I am an unmarried chap
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Old 20th November 2016, 14:33   #62
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Default Re: Airbags made mandatory for new cars from October 2017

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Originally Posted by PCS View Post
What will happen to maruti omni?
Crumple Bumpers? Kidding.
We had the Omni. I think it needs more than just airbags for the occupants to stay safe. I feel, they will sell Omni as a non-car like an auto, possibly.
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Old 21st November 2016, 11:45   #63
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Default Re: Airbags made mandatory for new cars from October 2017

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Originally Posted by Zappo View Post
Now this is a little worrisome. You build 6 and 8-laned highways and then want to restrict people below 100 kmph? Even some of the newer highways have a speed limt of 100 kmph or higher. This is a little bothersome in my opinion. A continuous alert should only be engaged when you cross beyond a grace speed limit. I think >120kmph is a more meaningful limit for a continuous alert to trigger.
We need bigger highways to accommodate large number of vehicles going at 100 kmph. The averages are being increased, I'm not sure if they will focus on the top end of the curve.
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Old 28th November 2016, 00:04   #64
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Default Re: Airbags made mandatory for new cars from October 2017

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Originally Posted by xs2mayank View Post
I think India is still not very mature for higher speed limits. In US, even most of the interstate highways have a max. speed limit of 70 mph which translates to 112 kph.

Keeping safety in mind and seeing the conditions of highways, limited number of lanes, numerous cross intersections, driving habits of general public & ability of most vehicles, I think there should be limit to max speed limit.
In the U.S. it depends on the state; in more densely populated ones like New Jersey, I think they're still only at 55mph (88kmph) max on the interstates; and NJ is pretty much of a high-enforcement "police state" besides, with reasonable levels of driver training and a pretty well-developed / maintained infrastructure. Even in U.S. states where Interstate limits are higher, they are usually lowered to 55 (88) when you get anywhere near urban centers (ring roads, elevated stretches of Interstate highway running across cities, etc). Taking into consideration all the unique aforementioned challenges to safety in the Indian context (tractors/cycles/cattle/relatively untrained drivers sharing the road, poor road design / crossings, etc, etc), I'm going to say that even 100kmph is really asking for trouble in a great many places.

I don't know that speed alarms will do much, though. As others have said, safety is more of a mindset. Teach it to young kids in school, follow it up with relentless public service ads on TV, newspapers, social media, etc. And yes, enforce as much as possible, increase fines, reduce the whole bribe thing somehow so that breaking safety rules actually is painful to perpetrators.

In the U.S. at one point the gov't decided they would be able to stop gross overspeeding (and thus fatalities) by only marking the speedometers up to 85mph (136kmph). Kind of stupid as most serious accidents involved people driving far below those speeds anyway; The law was repealed sometime later. Another law was to mandate "passive restraints". These were systems designed to attach seatbelts automatically to passengers. Many of them were poorly conceived and compromised, thus much less effective for people who'd actually have been voluntarily wearing them anyway. They were moreover easy to override, as there always had to be a quick-release system to deal with the possibilities of having to get out of the belts in cases of electrical failure, etc. So these were just left released by people who really resisted the idea of wearing a seatbelt. And of course some of the systems, running on electric-motor-driven tracks, failed and unlike simple seatbelts were too expensive for many people to repair... This law also proved ineffective and was repealed / superceded as airbags became mandatory.

From what I understand, ABS was never mandated there exactly, the gov't simply asked carmakers to voluntarily adopt it and they did, kind of marketing it heavily to cover the costs / convince consumers. Early systems there, too, were not very effective (I worked with them / tested them some), and early data, at least, actually showed increases in some types of accidents with ABS-equipped cars.

To sum up, I lean strongly in the direction of others here who've stressed the need for better driver training, enforcement, road design/maintenance and basic structural soundness in car design, along with government-driven awareness campaigns, etc. Mandating technology is an easy way to take the burden off government and put the cost of "safety" on the consumer, but it probably isn't going to be nearly as effective as anticipated / promised.

-Eric
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Old 28th November 2016, 15:52   #65
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Default Re: Airbags made mandatory for new cars from October 2017

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Originally Posted by Zappo View Post
Now this is a little worrisome. You build 6 and 8-laned highways and then want to restrict people below 100 kmph? Even some of the newer highways have a speed limt of 100 kmph or higher. This is a little bothersome in my opinion. A continuous alert should only be engaged when you cross beyond a grace speed limit. I think >120kmph is a more meaningful limit for a continuous alert to trigger.
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Originally Posted by dZired View Post

Additionally, the notification also mandates the presence of a speed warning system on all cars. This system will notify the driver when the car's speed goes over 80 km/h, while once the car crosses the 100 km/h mark, a constant audio alert will be engaged, thus forcing the driver to slow down.
While the Airbag initiative is very nice this speed limit warning is a bit odd. It could end up being in the form of a mild warning say a triangle in the dash or it could be an annoying beep.

If an annoying beep then one might as well ban engines above 1L in both petrol and diesel.

Also best to also ban the sale of Lamborghinis, Ferraris etc...

The safe speed varies from vehicle to vehicle. A car with bigger brakes and better build can at a speed of 120 or even 175 be safer than another one with a poorer design and build at say a speed of 40. Try having an accident in an Auto Rick at say 25kmph. I have had one of those and was thrown out of the car. Speeds should depend upon the vehicle and blanket 100kmph warning is not a good idea.
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Old 28th November 2016, 16:23   #66
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Default Re: Airbags made mandatory for new cars from October 2017

Better late than never! I am happy, Though why Make the Airbags Mandatory and not ABS? Doesn't it make sense to avoid the accident in the first place? Still no complaints, Ill be the most happiest when ABS and ESP is made mandatory aswell, I still feel making ESP mandatory is a long way to go.
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Old 30th November 2016, 12:23   #67
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Post Re: Airbags made mandatory for new cars from October 2017

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Originally Posted by Tanmay K View Post
For cars like Omni or Nano, I believe they can be tweaked to meet the requirements post Oct 2017. It's not that cars without long bonnets are necessarily totally unsafe:
While, you can have a rigid thing in the front to avoid getting crumbled, it still defeats the purpose. Because, if the front part doesn't crumble and instead stay put, then the impact will be instead absorbed by our internal organs like the brain! So, you will still have deaths without any visible external injury.

The difference in impact force would be like dropping a phone on a rock vis-a-vis dropping a phone on smooth sand

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Originally Posted by VKumar View Post
With due respect; and even more, Yamuna expressway already has a speed limit of 100 kph and Govt. is planning to further revise it. So your first statement holds no water on this one. How many times you, yourself drive under 100 kph on an empty 4 lane highway? Let's not be ideologists and discuss what we and other road users in our country actually do on the roads. That is exactly where my argument makes a case for itself.
To add to what you said, in Kerala speed limit for 2 lane highways have been increased to 85 kmph and in 4 lane, it has been increased to 90 kmph.
Reference article - http://www.thehindu.com/news/nationa...cle5801789.ece

Similarly in NICE Ring Road, Bangalore, the speed limit is 120 kmph.
And in most 4 lane highways in TN, I have seen the speed limit set as 100 kmph. So, this 80 kmph story is pretty outdated.

Last edited by amalji : 30th November 2016 at 12:26.
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Old 30th November 2016, 17:24   #68
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Default Re: Airbags made mandatory for new cars from October 2017

Just watched a couple of minutes, but that Smart is so impressive!
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Old 30th November 2016, 17:59   #69
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Exclamation Re: Airbags made mandatory for new cars from October 2017

Guys?

Just curious. Is there a law in India that mandates wearing seatbelts in vehicles?

As in...

"whosoever shall be found,
without the soul for belting down,
must stand and face the cops of hell,
and rot inside a jail's cell
"

Because, the way I see it, mandating airbags & abs and all that crap doesn't mean diddly doo squat if the passengers in the vehicle aren't belted down in the first place!

I'm not aware of any law that mandates wearing seatbelts. And I'm talking about an actual law here, not some self righteous mandate like in Bangalore where police can fine you just because they want to, and not because a law exists. Something like Indian Penal Code 300/420 etc.
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Old 30th November 2016, 18:18   #70
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Default Re: Airbags made mandatory for new cars from October 2017

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Originally Posted by sourav9385 View Post
Guys?

Just curious. Is there a law in India that mandates wearing seatbelts in vehicles?
Not sure what exactly is your question but:

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Law on Use of Seatbelt: CENTRAL MOTOR VEHICLES RULES 1989

As per the provisions of sub-rule (3) of Rule 138 of the Central Motor Vehicle Rules, 1989 'in a motor
vehicle, in which seat-belts have been provided under sub-rule (1) or sub-rule (1A) of rule 125 or rule
125A, as the case may be, it shall be ensured that the driver, and the person seated in the front seat
or the persons occupying front facing rear seats, as the case may be, wear the seat belts while the
vehicle is in motion.

Rule 125 (1) requires the manufacturer of every motor vehicle other than motor cycles and threewheelers of engine capacity not exceeding 500 cc, shall equip every such vehicle with a seat belt for the driver and for the person occupying the front seat.

Rule 125 (1A) requires the manufacturer of every motor vehicle that is used for carriage of
passengers and their luggage and comprising no more than 8 seats in addition to the driver's seat,
shall equip it with a seat belt for a person occupying the front facing rear seat
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Old 1st December 2016, 09:13   #71
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Default Re: Airbags made mandatory for new cars from October 2017

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Originally Posted by sourav9385 View Post
I'm not aware of any law that mandates wearing seatbelts.
That surprises me, because, if I remember rightly there was, a few years back, a court decision instructing enforcement of the law.

Living in Chennai, what you might have remembered was the news reporting of a chief minister (who I won't name here ) who instructed the local police not to trouble the people with this.

But yes, it is law, and occasionally now, yes, the police here trouble the people. Patchy implementation and enforcement, nationwide, might surely give the impression that it is not a national law --- but it is.
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Old 1st December 2016, 14:00   #72
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Default Re: Airbags made mandatory for new cars from October 2017

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Originally Posted by paragsachania View Post
Not sure what exactly is your question but:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom View Post
That surprises me, because, if I remember rightly there was, a few years back, a court decision instructing enforcement of the law...But yes, it is law, and occasionally now, yes, the police here trouble the people. Patchy implementation and enforcement, nationwide, might surely give the impression that it is not a national law --- but it is.
Thanks guys for clearing this up!

So, as always, there is a law that states people must wear seatbelts when the vehicle is in motion. It's just that people choose NOT to wear it, and the 5-0 don't enforce it rigorously either.

So correct me if I'm wrong again. Hypothetically, someone has a car with airbags, and is driving it around without belting up. And then, disaster strikes! But the airbags won't deploy, obviously? Because, let's face it, they hadn't put on the freaking seat belt! So what's the point in making air bags mandatory?
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Old 1st December 2016, 14:15   #73
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Post Re: Airbags made mandatory for new cars from October 2017

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Originally Posted by sourav9385 View Post
So correct me if I'm wrong again. Hypothetically, someone has a car with airbags, and is driving it around without belting up. And then, disaster strikes! But the airbags won't deploy, obviously? Because, let's face it, they hadn't put on the freaking seat belt! So what's the point in making air bags mandatory?
To answer that question, I'll ask a few counter questions.
  • Government has made the seatbelts mandatory. But, if the passenger doesn't wear it, it's useless. So, why have mandatory seatbelt rule in the first place ?
  • Government has a rule to not drive under the influence of alcohol. But, if the driver decides to still drive under the influence of alcohol and then bang on innocents, what is the use of having that rule ?

If you have an answer to the above 2 questions, you should get the answer for the question that you asked as well.
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Old 1st December 2016, 14:19   #74
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Default Re: Airbags made mandatory for new cars from October 2017

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Originally Posted by sourav9385 View Post
So what's the point in making air bags mandatory?
To be honest, apart from issuing penalties for the violations & advertising at signals and highways, the govt. cannot spoon-feed people into fastening the seat belts.

But, by making the airbags mandatory the govt. is at least making an attempt to make travel safer for those who are concerned and abide by the safety rules. The ignorant will anyway remain as is.

Relaying ads about ill effects of smoking, in cinemas and other ads hasn't stopped people from smoking. Similarly, the seat belt/safety campaign hoardings that we see on the road are merely for the prudent.
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Old 1st December 2016, 14:19   #75
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Default Re: Airbags made mandatory for new cars from October 2017

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Originally Posted by sourav9385 View Post

So correct me if I'm wrong again. Hypothetically, someone has a car with airbags, and is driving it around without belting up. And then, disaster strikes! But the airbags won't deploy, obviously? Because, let's face it, they hadn't put on the freaking seat belt! So what's the point in making air bags mandatory?
Correcting you since you are wrong. This is a myth, airbags do deploy when seatbelts are not worn, in fact they even deploy if no one is sitting in the seat. For example, if you are driving alone and someone smashes into your passenger side door without any occupant, the airbag for the passenger door will deploy.
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