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Old 18th November 2016, 13:41   #31
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Default Re: Tata Zest's NCAP Test: 0 stars with no airbags, 4 stars with airbags & reinforcements

Quote:
Originally Posted by SAE40 in veins View Post
Pls see the pic in the first post, it clearly mentions 64 KMPH which is ODB 64 or 'Offset Deformable Barrier' 64 where the car is crashed at 64kmph. Different countries based on their average highway speeds have various speed limits for these tests based on the crash standards they have. If a car fails in ODB 64 (zero star)in Euro NCAP, it doesn't necessarily mean that the car is unsafe in Indian driving conditions but rather in European conditions where the highway speeds are much higher
....
I see 64 kmph simply as two vehicles approaching each other at 32kmph or more.

Hence, this scenario 'should' probably cover 80% of collision scenarios in India, even within city limits. Don't really understand why you mean this speed is too high.
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Old 18th November 2016, 13:49   #32
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Default Re: Tata Zest's NCAP Test: 0 stars with no airbags, 4 stars with airbags & reinforcements

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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Oh give me a break! Most highways in India are good enough for *at least* an average speed of 64 kmph.
The 2014 Etios has been tested at 64 kmph too. Here are the results.

Though star rating is same Zest vs Etios, there's a slightly better head and chest protection for the driver. They difference is the following:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Etios
The structure was able to withstand further loadings.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zest
The bodyshell was rated as unstable and it was not capable of withstanding any further loadings.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
You can walk into a Toyota showroom today and buy a 4-star car. You can't with the Zest.
The test was done on the previous generation vehicle. There were few improvements, most importantly side reinforcements and ISOFIX added since in 2016 edition. So the Etios might end up higher than where it was in the previous test.
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Old 18th November 2016, 14:20   #33
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Default Re: Tata Zest's NCAP Test: 0 stars with no airbags, 4 stars with airbags & reinforcements

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
While I appreciate Tata for improving the car, this is akin to cheating. Give Maruti the chance and I'm sure they can reinforce the Maruti Baleno to get 5 stars in the NCAP. How come they weren't given the chance to go back and build a one-off car for the test? What makes Tata so special? A lot more than meets the eye here.
Question is, did Maruti ask for another chance? Does NCAP have provision of giving another chance? If yes, this may not be cheating as TATA is still not advertising this (I did not see any) star rating and they might put it in production. If no, then NCAP is not a trustworthy organisation after all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Most highways in India are good enough for *at least* an average speed of 64 kmph.
I agree, most of the fatal accidents happen at speeds beyond the official limits of our highways. I think it is time to conduct tests even at 80kmph now as that is more common speed everywhere. People are fool enough to do insane speeds in their certified 'super safe' cars and ending up in mortuaries.
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Old 18th November 2016, 14:39   #34
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Default Re: Tata Zest's NCAP Test: 0 stars with no airbags, 4 stars with airbags & reinforcements

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Originally Posted by sourabhzen View Post
I think it is time to conduct tests even at 80kmph now as that is more common speed everywhere. People are fool enough to do insane speeds in their certified 'super safe' cars and ending up in mortuaries.
If they keep increasing the testing speeds in line with the quality of our highways, we will need battle tanks and not cars. There is a limit even for the safest of safe cars. Beyond that it is the discretion of the individuals. Nothing can help if the drivers are hell bent on suicide.
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Old 18th November 2016, 14:51   #35
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Default Re: Tata Zest's NCAP Test: 0 stars with no airbags, 4 stars with airbags & reinforcements

I am disappointed to see the result of Tata Zest. I always had confidence in Tata that they would at least give their new vehicles a structure that would be stable in a 64 km/h crash test. I'm let down by this. Again, goes to show weight/heavy build =/= structural strength.

I agree with GTO that we are celebrating unnecessarily. When the Swift's structure was found to be unstable, we bashed Maruti to no end, but somehow we are praising Tata for giving us a car with a structure that is not strong enough. The biggest disappointment is the fact that Tata could not fix the structure even after a chance was given to them to fix it

Last edited by theredliner : 18th November 2016 at 14:54.
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Old 18th November 2016, 14:55   #36
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Default Re: Tata Zest's NCAP Test: 0 stars with no airbags, 4 stars with airbags & reinforcements

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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Oh give me a break! Most highways in India are good enough for *at least* an average speed of 64 kmph.
And that on the highway is combined speed during collision! So two cars hitting each other at 40 kmph will have a combined speed of about 80 kmph and have similar effect on the cars.

And these are extremely easy to achieve speeds even in our cities (except during peak hours maybe)

If you want to tell me that 32+32 is the right equation for collision speed, I would remind you that this crash is against a solid surface that will not absorb energy or crumple like the front of our cars
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Old 18th November 2016, 15:09   #37
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Default Re: Tata Zest's NCAP Test: 0 stars with no airbags, 4 stars with airbags & reinforcements

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Originally Posted by aravind.anand View Post
If you want to tell me that 32+32 is the right equation for collision speed, I would remind you that this crash is against a solid surface that will not absorb energy or crumple like the front of our cars
Most highways where 64 KMPH is legal will be at least two + two lane highways where a frontal collision between two vehicles traveling in opposite directions is not expected (there are many morons who drive in the wrong direction, but that is illegal). Most collisions will be like rear ending of moving or stationary vehicles, collision with dividers or collisions at inter-junctions where the vehicles will be traveling at a tangent to each other. Also, in many cases the drivers would step on the brakes, reducing at least some of the speed before the actual collision. I guess that is why 64 KMPH is the limit they chose.

Last edited by Enobarbus : 18th November 2016 at 15:19.
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Old 18th November 2016, 15:13   #38
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Default Re: Tata Zest's NCAP Test: 0 stars with no airbags, 4 stars with airbags & reinforcements

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post

While I appreciate Tata for improving the car, this is akin to cheating. Give Maruti the chance and I'm sure they can reinforce the Maruti Baleno to get 5 stars in the NCAP. How come they weren't given the chance to go back and build a one-off car for the test? What makes Tata so special? A lot more than meets the eye here.

When Tata updates the production version Zest exactly as per the 4 star car, that's when they'll hear my applause.
Exactly! Renault KWID was also a curious case.. much more curious!

If GNCAP indeed has a provision of tweaking and coming back for the test, why are others not taking up the challenge?


Quote:
Cost, cost, cost. If others are successfully selling unsafe cars, you'll lose cost competitiveness (and perhaps FE) by strengthening your car.
Just to be the devil's advocate, the car is perhaps designed for 56kmph (ECE regulation speed) and 64kmph is too much to ask from it. They ought to have a baseline to look for while designing and it might even be 56kmph. We don't have any data on that test but is my guesstimate.


Quote:
Oh give me a break! Most highways in India are good enough for *at least* an average speed of 64 kmph.
Moreover, ODB represents impact to an oncoming car; which itself deforms hence the deformable barrier. In this scenario, we are only talking about a speed of 32kmph for each vehicle (travelling in opposite direction, of course) which is reasonable IMHO. This also takes into consideration that before impact the drivers would slam the brakes reducing the speed.

Last edited by teemus : 18th November 2016 at 15:26. Reason: added text
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Old 18th November 2016, 15:27   #39
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Default Re: Tata Zest's NCAP Test: 0 stars with no airbags, 4 stars with airbags & reinforcements

I would really appreciate if someone has this information: Are there any cars that have received more than 0 rating for the without airbag version?

If the cars by default get a zero rating when they don't have an airbag, it is useless to rate them without one.
If the car goes from 0 to 4 stars by adding air bags, then the car must have a good structure in the first place.
(in this case some reinforcement is talked about, but there are cases where only air bag is an addition)
I guess, the test boils down to - does the dummy hit the steering wheel at 64 kmph, if yes, 0 rating. It does not look into the structural integrity in that case. Which is required.

Before, we can start making cars better, let's get better tests.
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Old 18th November 2016, 15:27   #40
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Default Re: Tata Zest's NCAP Test: 0 stars with no airbags, 4 stars with airbags & reinforcements

Quote:
Originally Posted by aravind.anand View Post
f you want to tell me that 32+32 is the right equation for collision speed
The headon collision test 64+64 as seen in the recent Nissan Tsuru vs Nissan Sentra here (More Indian cars face Global NCAP crash tests. Edit: ZERO for all).

Anyways, these are tests to show how cars perform on the lower end of speed limits and airbags have (ideally) deployed.

Have seen 64 kmph being achieved and exceeded easily even in district roads, state highways in Europe and India. Also, there have been quite a few reports of airbags not deploying on impact due to a host of reasons.

In effect, my take is: These tests just give you points to ponder on purchase, not exactly what you would expect in a realistic situation having much higher impact speeds.
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Old 18th November 2016, 16:34   #41
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Default Re: Tata Zest's NCAP Test: 0 stars with no airbags, 4 stars with airbags & reinforcements

There are confusions of how much changes were made structurally before being able to achieve 4 stars, and rightly so. I am also wondering the same. But does a manufacturer redo an entire body shell and then give them to test again? If that is the case what stopped other manufacturers to do so ?
Quoting from the article - "As has been the case with other manufacturers, Global NCAP offered Tata the opportunity to test another version of the Zest with more safety features."
Questions I have here
1. Is addition of - only "more safety features" is allowed?
2. "As has been the case with other manufacturers" - Why did other manufacturers take up the challenge? Probably because they had to re engineer/redesign the entire thing? Or did they not care about the rating(IMO don't think this is the case)

As far as I'm concerned, to me this again adds a secondary seal of trust.

I have been a part of two zest groups in Whatsapp for two years and in these two years have seen approx 4 fatal accidents. The best thing is all of them are living to tell the tale. The last one happened last Sunday in Kolkata to one fellow zester (his zest didn't have airbags) and everyone including his little daughter came out unscratched, apart from his dad who got some minor injuries in head as he was not wearing seatbelts. His repair estimates are around 2 lakhs.

But then again yes I demand clarifications from TML regarding the second vehicle which earned 4 stars and how much that is different from the standard version that we have.
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Old 18th November 2016, 17:00   #42
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Default Re: Tata Zest's NCAP Test: 0 stars with no airbags, 4 stars with airbags & reinforcements

This isn't the first time Tata has made structural modifications for crash tests. If my memory serves me right, then some modification were made to Nano too for passing the crash test.
Coming the the car, though the structure for car without airbags might be mentioned unstable, I am not able to see any damage to A-pillar and intrusions into cabin. Which is something I appreciate. Nothing flies off the dashboard ! Look at similar video of Indian Swift/Grand i10 and it would become evident what I mean. So, on the whole, its a good job done by Tata when we put them against Maruti, Hyundai. Grand i10 miserably failed, Swift did 3/5 with Airbags. Both these cars are selling more than 12,000 units per month. We are not even considering 16,000 units of Dzire based on Swift and approx. 4,000 units of Xcent. So on the whole, Zest, in my books atleast, did better than more modern offerings from firms having a huge global exposure.

Secondly, car with changes scores 4 star which is equivalent to what Etios, Ciaz and Ertiga got. Given the situation Tata is in and with Ratan Tata in charge, I doubt they wont implement the changes made (and Promised to be filtered down to serial production). The only car doing well for them is Tiago, Zest has huge potential. This 4-star point will become another strong point for marketing team and rightly so IMO. Tata, if sense prevails among the requisite decision making team, has no space for error. A better Zest image will have its positive impact on new products under Rs. 10 lakh like Kite compact sedan and (hopefully) Nexon.

Last edited by aaggoswami : 18th November 2016 at 17:21.
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Old 18th November 2016, 17:33   #43
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Default Re: Tata Zest's NCAP Test: 0 stars with no airbags, 4 stars with airbags & reinforcements

The 64kmph set by GNCAP is valid for most countries as there is always a divider between the two directions.

IMO head-on collision is never in the scope of these crash tests considering that you drive in your own side of the road and the traffic in the opposite direction, drive in their own side.

So the scenario is about you, driving in your side of the road, encounter some obstacle and then jam your brakes as a precaution and unable to avoid the obstacle, hit it at a considerable speed.

This scenario works out in the Indian highways as well as most good roads have a divider and you drive at an average speed of 80 - 100 kmph.

Head-on collision is an exceptional scenario (though a bit more common in India) and the directives set by GNCAP may not be applicable in that case.
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Old 18th November 2016, 17:34   #44
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Default Re: Tata Zest's NCAP Test: 0 stars with no airbags, 4 stars with airbags & reinforcements

Quote:
Originally Posted by SAE40 in veins View Post
Indian driving conditions but rather in European conditions where the highway speeds are much higher.....Cars are made to Indian standards
The speed limits in most countries- including the USA is 100-120 kmph. I think these speeds are done by most cars on Indian highways too.

The figure 64 kmph comes from statistics. To condense it short, the relative velocity of vehicles (between both vehicles, irrespective of direction) and the deceleration in the 'safe zone' between 2 vehicles is taken into account. You do slam the brakes in any unforeseen circumstance right?

So, I don't see why the result of a test conducted at 64 kmph is irrelevant. Our Urban traffic may move slower than those in other countries though.

Quote:
If we look at the pics of Baleno accidents (mostly available in rushlane), one thing is certain. The roof collapses easily while overturning. ....
Regarding those disturbing images of the Baleno, we don't know what the accident conditions are. If we make roll-over tests mandatory, we may as well be driving tanks instead of cars.

I think proper driver training is necessary for learning preventing accidents. That's why I consider BNVSAP the first step and the job half done. (Hope the BNVSAP is not a half done job )

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/street...ml#post4091107 (Pics: Accidents in India)

^^This is one of many examples which shows accidents caused by bad driving. The guy here was lucky. This could have been avoided by proper driver (or rider) training.


Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
this is akin to cheating.... What makes Tata so special? A lot more than meets the eye here.


I think the manufacturer can request a chance to be retested. It was the same case with the Renault Kwid IIRC.

GNCAP should make their processes and conditions transparent.

Last edited by landcruiser123 : 18th November 2016 at 17:41.
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Old 18th November 2016, 17:37   #45
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Default Re: Tata Zest's NCAP Test: 0 stars with no airbags, 4 stars with airbags & reinforcements

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Originally Posted by Prithwitheraj View Post
There are confusions of how much changes were made structurally before being able to achieve 4 stars, and rightly so. I am also wondering the same. But does a manufacturer redo an entire body shell and then give them to test again? If that is the case what stopped other manufacturers to do so ?
To be realistic, to pass the test, whole of structure is not needed to be re-done. That's not engineering! This can be achieved by means of some enablers, reinforcements or redesigning / tweaking the crush-zone (structural members which are intended to get crushed in a crash). This is a regular exercise in an OEM and everybody has a know-how to this. One thing good on part of Tata is that they made the changes and results are there for everyone to see.

Regarding point as to when it will be implemented in production, if they want they can do it very quickly. Question is if they have the business case to actually implement the changes.

Moreover, even without these enablers or changes, Zest does not become an unsafe car by any means. To put it the other way, with these changes it becomes safer even at 64kmph test speed.

To get a little technical, the structure is deemed unstable for a variety of causes. If we take the case of Zest, we can clearly see the sill area (at the base of A-pillar) gets damaged or rather opens up. This might have been a reason for the structure being deemed unstable. We don't have any other data other than videos to conclude or analyse.


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As far as I'm concerned, to me this again adds a secondary seal of trust.

I have been a part of two zest groups in Whatsapp for two years and in these two years have seen approx 4 fatal accidents. The best thing is all of them are living to tell the tale. The last one happened last Sunday in Kolkata to one fellow zester (his zest didn't have airbags) and everyone including his little daughter came out unscratched, apart from his dad who got some minor injuries in head as he was not wearing seatbelts. His repair estimates are around 2 lakhs.
There you go!

Quote:
But then again yes I demand clarifications from TML regarding the second vehicle which earned 4 stars and how much that is different from the standard version that we have.
I highly doubt any OEM will provide such data though.

Last edited by teemus : 18th November 2016 at 17:40.
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