Go Back   Team-BHP > BHP India > The Indian Car Scene


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 8th December 2016, 20:51   #76
BHPian
 
VKumar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: NCR
Posts: 241
Thanked: 1,005 Times
Talking Re: Indian Army's new official vehicle - the Tata Safari Storme!

Quote:
Originally Posted by GrammarNazi View Post
This is what the Indian Army can do with a Gypsy :



For sure, they're not going to use Safari Storme for all the ground troops.
Thanks for the video sir.

This video actually tells one of the sole reasons behind the presence of Gypsy for the job - ease of transportation. Such situations can easily occur where the vehicle may be required to be transported from a location to another by the troops in the areas surrounding the borders. Simplicity of operation is the key here. Light vehicles offer an exceptional versatility in such scenarios. For example, there have been numerous instances where Maruti Suzuki Omni ambulance vehicles are lifted and keep on the wrong side of the road in massive traffic jams etc. Can anyone do that with a Winger? Or Sumo or Safari?

IMO, Safari is more of a vehicle for transporting officials around and for the areas of operation where at least a path is available to drive the vehicle. For the true challenging grounds, it has to be the Gypsy all the way.

Additionally, it is already clear that Tata has offered a better financial deal to the forces (Or maybe many position holders too) and availed this contract. I know that it may invite the ire of many; but I won't be surprised if we get to know of some "Safari Khareed Ghotala (Safari Purchase Scam)" in coming years. Can't be ruled out going by the past of such purchases. 3000+ vehicles now and over 30,000 to follow; it's a real big money involved here, you know.

Last edited by VKumar : 8th December 2016 at 20:53.
VKumar is online now   (2) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 8th December 2016, 21:23   #77
BHPian
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Howrah, WB
Posts: 154
Thanked: 85 Times
Default Re: Indian Army's new official vehicle - the Tata Safari Storme!

First of all, this Gypsy has been specially made 'easily dismantle-able' for demo purposes only. Secondly, Safari Storme can only serve as tpt for senior officers -- it can never be a substitute for Willys/Jonga/Gypsy/MM 550. It is too luxurious for regular army use, which requires a simple spartan vehicle with high engine power and torque with 4WD. Body and seating capacity wise, SUMO 4X4 was more suited. I found it strange that these are used mainly as ambulances only, just as strange as Gypsy having remained in service for so long, being so puny and underpowered. One reason for picking Gypsy was Maruti's powerful political patronage.
SnakemanJohny is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th December 2016, 22:11   #78
BHPian
 
VKumar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: NCR
Posts: 241
Thanked: 1,005 Times
Default Re: Indian Army's new official vehicle - the Tata Safari Storme!

Quote:
Originally Posted by SnakemanJohny View Post
First of all, this Gypsy has been specially made 'easily dismantle-able' for demo purposes only.
Sir, with due respect, I guess you have got, me, as well as the motive behind this video wrong here.

The motive behind the posting of this video is not proving that a Gypsy can be dis-assembled and assembled back in 3 minutes. Looking at the way they took the bonnet away and kept it back, that is enough to prove your point. In fact no man in his sane thoughts would believe that this is exactly the build of the vehicle which is supposed to tackle terrains. The motive behind this video is more about showing that a Gypsy offers the versatility where a couple of men, having some basic tools in their hands can carry out minor to major repairs even at the places where availing a mechanic is not possible. This video is less about showing how quickly Army men did it, it is more about how quickly this operation can be carried out on a Gypsy.

As an engineering student, we have dis assembles an entire Maruti 800, being true; all we needed was a set of basic ring and open end spanners to completely dis assemble the Maruti 800. Now how to co-relate that with this video? See, on the frontline, having a new vehicle after every breakdown or damage to vehicles is a rarer than rare luxury. A vehicle which is versatile and easy to fix is not just a basic requirement there; it can be a question of life and death. A vehicle which offers ease of maintenance along with a capability of quick repair is a must for the armed forces. Safari Storme can't fit these situations, it weighs double than the Gypsy does. A gypsy, even if stuck in worst of the situations; 10 troops are enough to pull it out, can't be done with Storme.
VKumar is online now   (2) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 8th December 2016, 22:47   #79
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Amritsar
Posts: 24
Thanked: 9 Times
Default Re: Indian Army's new official vehicle - the Tata Safari Storme!

I think this is a grave mistake by the Indian Army, I am a true patriot and will go to any limit to support an Indian Brand but not at the cost of the safety of our soldiers. We all know the reliability of a Maruti Gypsy in tough high altitude inclines as compared to a Tata Safari. Also a Maruti Gypsy easily has a life of 10 -15 years as compared to 5 years for a Safari. Imagine a hostile situation in High Ranges and a turbo failing, Wheres the Gypsy has very few parts that can ever go wrong, Having tested it personally with 12 passengers in Steep Inclines, I can vow for the Gypsy. Also will we be lighting a pressure cooker or a stove under the frozen Diesel tank after a overnight stay in sub zero temperatures and wait for it to melt and let the Enemy continue firing and Militants intrude. Not sure how the Indian Army team tested it and under what conditions. Seems Like it is Going to be another 3G pushed by the TATA lobbyist's in the Dilwallon Ki Dilli !
filmaka is offline   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 9th December 2016, 05:24   #80
BHPian
 
coldice4u's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Delhi
Posts: 156
Thanked: 86 Times
Default Re: Indian Army's new official vehicle - the Tata Safari Storme!

Quote:
Originally Posted by filmaka View Post
I think this is a grave mistake by the Indian Army, I am a true patriot and will go to any limit to support an Indian Brand but not at the cost of the safety of our soldiers. We all know the reliability of a Maruti Gypsy in tough high altitude inclines as compared to a Tata Safari. Also a Maruti Gypsy easily has a life of 10 -15 years as compared to 5 years for a Safari. Imagine a hostile situation in High Ranges and a turbo failing, Wheres the Gypsy has very few parts that can ever go wrong, Having tested it personally with 12 passengers in Steep Inclines, I can vow for the Gypsy. Also will we be lighting a pressure cooker or a stove under the frozen Diesel tank after a overnight stay in sub zero temperatures and wait for it to melt and let the Enemy continue firing and Militants intrude. Not sure how the Indian Army team tested it and under what conditions. Seems Like it is Going to be another 3G pushed by the TATA lobbyist's in the Dilwallon Ki Dilli !
I'm sorry but i think that was a pretty biased post against the Army and the decision makers. We will soon see what role does the Storme get to play. The Storme can surely replace the Ambassadors that the forces use ?
coldice4u is offline   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 9th December 2016, 07:49   #81
BHPian
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Trivandrum
Posts: 864
Thanked: 622 Times
Default Re: Indian Army's new official vehicle - the Tata Safari Storme!

Quote:
Originally Posted by VKumar View Post
Thanks for the video sir.

This video actually tells one of the sole reasons behind the presence of Gypsy for the job - ease of transportation. Such situations can easily occur where the vehicle may be required to be transported from a location to another by the troops in the areas surrounding the borders.
Every solution is about what best compromise can be achieved and I am sure that the Army's engineering division would have used this thumb rule as well. Easy transportation may be one of the factors but given that the Gypsy is well over 20 years old with no particular upgrades means that some other parameter would have suffered in relation to easy transportation and serviceability. That said it is still one of the most capable 4x4s available. But as shown in the below video loading it with 8 hefty soldiers and their equipment is surely overloading that light frame and it's 1300 cc engine which the Storme would definitely be better equipped to do.

Also given that the Army recently started using Toyota Fortuners for the BSF on the Indo China border, weight is not really a huge consideration. The American Humvee is hardly a light car but the US Army uses it in almost every possible configuration. You never see the original Jeep or even a Jeep Wrangler in use in any of the US Military's operations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GrammarNazi View Post
This is what the Indian Army can do with a Gypsy :


Just wow!! It also serves as a indication of how easily serviceable Maruti's vehicles are. But given the capability of Army engineering divisions, I won't be surprised if a similar video of the Safari emerges in due course. Of course they may need more men to handle that heavy body perhaps.

Quote:
Originally Posted by filmaka View Post
I think this is a grave mistake by the Indian Army, I am a true patriot and will go to any limit to support an Indian Brand but not at the cost of the safety of our soldiers. We all know the reliability of a Maruti Gypsy in tough high altitude inclines as compared to a Tata Safari.
Then how does the Army operate diesel trucks in sub zero conditions. I am sure that those truck need to operate in quick response situations as well. As mentioned by another member in a previous post, the Gypsy will still be around in a lower weight category. Just that the Army will have a better option for lugging about 12 soldiers.

Drive on,
Shibu.
shibujp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th December 2016, 09:21   #82
BANNED
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Coimbatore / MENA
Posts: 673
Thanked: 973 Times
Default Re: Indian Army's new official vehicle - the Tata Safari Storme!

Quote:
Originally Posted by filmaka View Post
Also will we be lighting a pressure cooker or a stove under the frozen Diesel tank after a overnight stay in sub zero temperatures and wait for it to melt and let the Enemy continue firing and Militants intrude.
Not sure what "lighting a pressure cooker" means or how it will help.

Your ignorance of anti-gelling additives and electric fuel line heaters thankfully will not put the army in jeopardy.

Cheers
gthang is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th December 2016, 09:27   #83
BHPian
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 560
Thanked: 1,271 Times
Default Re: Indian Army's new official vehicle - the Tata Safari Storme!

Wow. Conspiracy theories. Interesting.

Is it very difficult to accept that our armed forces, understand their needs better than what we can speculate. And that they would have evaluated products based on their needs (and budget) before coming to a decision.

We know this procurement process/evaluation has been in place for a few years, so it is not an overnight decision. Without really knowing the details, why assume scams, bad decision, conspiracy etc. Am sure we know about their requirements, plans far lesser than themselves.
sachinayak is offline   (3) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 9th December 2016, 10:00   #84
BHPian
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Pune
Posts: 597
Thanked: 634 Times
Default Re: Indian Army's new official vehicle - the Tata Safari Storme!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manan_02 View Post
This move of Indian Army just proves that TATA is no more considered as an "Unreliable Brand". If it had been a case, Indian Army would just not consider the Safari over Scorpio as they can't afford to deal with the issues of the car
If you consider issues with Tata cars, they are more (probably 95%) with the electronics, and additional gismos the basic structure and powertrain is trouble free and as reliable as other vehicles. The basic entry level vehicles do not have any more problems than Indian made foreign brands.
The Army will any way buy the basic storm, and not the top end, so if you consider the Army purchase and go in for a top end storm, the niggles in the electronics may exist as before.

Rahul
Rahul Rao is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th December 2016, 10:34   #85
Distinguished - BHPian
 
nkrishnap's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 3,494
Thanked: 4,110 Times
Default Re: Indian Army's new official vehicle - the Tata Safari Storme!

Quote:
Originally Posted by filmaka View Post
I think this is a grave mistake by the Indian Army, I am a true patriot and will go to any limit to support an Indian Brand but not at the cost of the safety of our soldiers. We all know the reliability of a Maruti Gypsy in tough high altitude inclines as compared to a Tata Safari. Also a Maruti Gypsy easily has a life of 10 -15 years as compared to 5 years for a Safari. Imagine a hostile situation in High Ranges and a turbo failing, Wheres the Gypsy has very few parts that can ever go wrong, Having tested it personally with 12 passengers in Steep Inclines, I can vow for the Gypsy. Also will we be lighting a pressure cooker or a stove under the frozen Diesel tank after a overnight stay in sub zero temperatures and wait for it to melt and let the Enemy continue firing and Militants intrude. Not sure how the Indian Army team tested it and under what conditions. Seems Like it is Going to be another 3G pushed by the TATA lobbyist's in the Dilwallon Ki Dilli !
It is pretty ridiculous to write off what the army has tested for 3 years and then made a call to go ahead with decision to procure the particular vehicle in question.

Do you have any insights into this as to how you arrived it as an incorrect decision.
nkrishnap is offline   (2) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 9th December 2016, 11:09   #86
BHPian
 
VKumar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: NCR
Posts: 241
Thanked: 1,005 Times
Talking Re: Indian Army's new official vehicle - the Tata Safari Storme!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rahul Rao View Post
If you consider issues with Tata cars, they are more (probably 95%) with the electronics, and additional gismos the basic structure and powertrain is trouble free and as reliable as other vehicles. The basic entry level vehicles do not have any more problems than Indian made foreign brands.
A breakdown is a breakdown, there is a scene in Fast and Furious - Tokyo Drift in which the old man tells the young guy something like this:
"For the want of a nail;
the horse shoe was lost.
For the want of a horse shoe;
the steed was lost.
For the want of a steed;
the message wasn't delivered.
For the want of an undelivered message;
the war was lost"
.

So, there is no point in discussing that the breakdown is electronic and how reliable the car is mechanically. The kind of job the vehicle is being appointed for; it needs a very high factor of safety and a failure rate that can shame even the six sigma practitioners of industry.

Quote:
The Army will any way buy the basic storm, and not the top end, so if you consider the Army purchase and go in for a top end storm, the niggles in the electronics may exist as before.
I must agree on this point. In fact the car on the first page looks like an LX or EX only, but the one in this post:
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...ml#post4105001 (Indian Army's new official vehicle - the Tata Safari Storme!)
It's a top end VX 4X4!
VKumar is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 9th December 2016, 15:18   #87
Newbie
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Delhi
Posts: 15
Thanked: 14 Times
Default Re: Indian Army's new official vehicle - the Tata Safari Storme!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rahul Rao View Post
If you consider issues with Tata cars, they are more (probably 95%) with the electronics, and additional gismos the basic structure and powertrain is trouble free and as reliable as other vehicles. The basic entry level vehicles do not have any more problems than Indian made foreign brands.
The Army will any way buy the basic storm, and not the top end, so if you consider the Army purchase and go in for a top end storm, the niggles in the electronics may exist as before.

Rahul
I wasn't talking particularly about the Storme. I was talking about the brand Image of TATA (no offense to anyone). And if You interpreted my opinion for the Storme, It has been already answered by BHPian VKumar in Post #86

Regards
Manan_02 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th December 2016, 21:25   #88
BHPian
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Howrah, WB
Posts: 154
Thanked: 85 Times
Default Re: Indian Army's new official vehicle - the Tata Safari Storme!

Quote:
Originally Posted by VKumar View Post
Sir, with due respect, I guess you have got, me, as well as the motive behind this video wrong here.

This video is less about showing how quickly Army men did it, it is more about how quickly this operation can be carried out on a Gypsy.

.
VKumar Saab, I am a retired BE (Mech) myself, and I hope I did not get you wrong. This video is a copy of an American Army video where they do it to a Jeep. It can even be done on a Safari if rightly prepared. In our childhood a popular circus show used to involve a Willys Jeep which drove around the arena while pieces of the body used to fall away when kicked by a joker. That is a variation of the same trick. That does not show/prove that a Gypsy is easily maintain-able.
Agreed, the Storme will be more complex due to different suspension and new age electronics (Gypsy, except for the engine, belongs to 1980s). But the army will, sooner or later, have to adapt to that. But a defence 4WD needs to have enormous power and torque (to tow), and needs to be primarily open-hooded (soft top). Only where it is used for senior officers can the present Storme suffice. I feel the Sumo 4X4 was more suited (body, suspension & seating capacity wise), if a more powerful engine was fitted and a soft-top was designed. As for weight, most people are forgetting the Nissan Patrol 60 series, aka JONGA. It requires five people to push it on level ground, but it served with distinction as troop transport, officers' car, artillery mount etc. for some thirty years, replacing the WW2 Willys after the China debacle. Only with a lot of lobbying did M&M get back to selling the Indian jeep to the defence forces.
Such lobbying got the Gypsy in too, as a light troop carrier, and it cannot even tow, so the MM550 was also there ! TATA, co-supplier of 4WD trucks to all forces, must be similarly getting the Storme in for a niche role, not general purpose.
SnakemanJohny is offline   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 10th December 2016, 10:19   #89
BHPian
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Pune
Posts: 597
Thanked: 634 Times
Default Re: Indian Army's new official vehicle - the Tata Safari Storme!

I think that the Army never got a replacement for the Jonga. Immense low rpm torque super smooth 4 lit Inline 6 petrol engine all usefull things for off road , and no extra gismo. Gypsy is just too light, and needs weighing down for the rear axle to grip, and the engine doesn't perform when weighed down.
A open top vehicle, or a load bay vehicle (eg Isuzu Vcross or Xenon) is also needed.
I have used 4 tata vehicles till date, the third the 2003 Indigo had issues which were sorted out in the first 6 to 7 months, about 25000 km, the vehicle served us the next 3 years till about a lakh and half km without ssues. The 4th a 2005 Indica was used for a full 8 years and 3.24 Lakh km with OE Engine, and routene maintenance and service nothing major was done. In my records there are five sets of tyres brake pads, and suspension jobs, one set of disks and rear brake pads, and one fuelpump service, at about 1.9 Lakh km.
I feel Tata reports are more exaggerated by media, many other cars have small initial niggles which are sorted out by dealers if correctly reported. In all the cars I've used till date, only one (of two) Innova was totally trouble and niggle free from date of purchase.

Rahul
Rahul Rao is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th December 2016, 11:37   #90
Senior - BHPian
 
n.devdath's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 3,961
Thanked: 1,714 Times
Default Re: Indian Army's new official vehicle - the Tata Safari Storme!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rahul Rao View Post
I think that the Army never got a replacement for the Jonga.
In today's world, a vehicle with the specs of a Jonga would not make the cut. It was a guzzler, something the Army would not approve of. Also, with the unifuel drive, a petrol vehicle would only add to complications.

They should definitely consider the D-Cross as their next LSV. It offers better space, an open bay, and a good 4WD system.

As a GSV, an SX4, Scorpio, Storme, or for that matter, even the good old Amby can do the work. There isn't a lot to do in that role.
n.devdath is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Tata Safari Storme : Official Review tsk1979 Official New Car Reviews 4458 30th October 2017 10:40
Tata Safari Storme 4x4 : Official Review tsk1979 Official New Car Reviews 198 26th November 2015 19:02
Tata Safari Storme & Mahindra Scorpio can now participate in Indian Army tenders sarathlal 4x4 Vehicles 19 15th February 2015 11:40


All times are GMT +5.5. The time now is 14:30.

Copyright 2000 - 2017, Team-BHP.com
Proudly powered by E2E Networks