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Old 4th August 2008, 18:59   #301
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Originally Posted by extreme_torque View Post
With the 1.3 JTD I dont think Linea can command premium pricing whatever Fiat may like to believe.
Why not? If the Octavia with a 90hp TDi engine and cramped interiors can command a premium why not the Linea with the same 90bhp?
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Old 4th August 2008, 19:03   #302
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Why not? If the Octavia with a 90hp TDi engine and cramped interiors can command a premium why not the Linea with the same 90bhp?
The idea of a big sedan with a 1.3 diesel will put of many people. No matter how good the engine is, at low revs with in city, it will be massively underpowered due to its displacement.

I hope the Linea comes with a 1.6 Litre diesel and trumps the Jetta which to me is horribly overpriced.
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Old 4th August 2008, 19:16   #303
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Whatever people believe, Fiat is going to price what they think is right irrespective of whether it is going to sell or not. No point is saying that car is good and then after seeing the price, ah! it is a Fiat car. That is like saying that grapes are sour. For me, I'm looking at the following specs:
- 90 or 95 bhp JTD with 200Nm torque
- 5+1 manual gear
- ABS with EBD, ESP
- also may be ASR, MSR, HillHolder-HBA
- 17" Alloys with 205/45 tyres
- Two air bags
- Blue&Me with MP3 and WMA support
- Rear middle passenger head rest
- Rear seat air vents
- cruise control

Willing to pay 10.5L ex-showroom. And for a dualogic gearbox, willing to pay 11L ex-showroom price. And I think it is fair enough.
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Old 4th August 2008, 19:31   #304
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Originally Posted by opendro View Post
Willing to pay 10.5L ex-showroom. And for a dualogic gearbox, willing to pay 11L ex-showroom price. And I think it is fair enough.
yep, i too agree that would be a good price. And it would be great if they launch it with a dualogic gearbox
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Old 4th August 2008, 19:36   #305
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Originally Posted by extreme_torque View Post
No matter how good the engine is, at low revs with in city, it will be massively underpowered due to its displacement.
If you would care to look at the torque curve and power delivery curve of Octavia 1.9L http://www.psipowerbox.com/turbodies...ctid=287&lg=en and Fiat Linea 1.3 JTD PSI motorsport : Diesel Tuning : PowerBox, before the tuning chip, you will find yourself wrong. Compare the torque and power at every rpm, specially at low rpms.
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Old 4th August 2008, 19:43   #306
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Originally Posted by opendro View Post
If you would care to look at the torque curve and power delivery curve of Octavia 1.9L PSI motorsport : Diesel Tuning : PowerBox and Fiat Linea 1.3 JTD PSI motorsport : Diesel Tuning : PowerBox, before the tuning chip, you will find yourself wrong. Compare the torque and power at every rpm, specially at low rpms.
Drive the two cars.

To repeat the very old and very true cliche - there IS no replacement for displacement.
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Old 4th August 2008, 19:49   #307
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Drive the two cars.

To repeat the very old and very true cliche - there IS no replacement for displacement.
I beg to differ. If you had said that the final torqe and power do not matter, I would have agreed. If you say that the graph do not matter, I will not agree. Let's say, at 1100 rpm on an upward slope, if they produce the same torque, which means same power (= torque * rpm / 5252), it is going to pull the same. That is true at any rpm, any speed.

The only difference would be when each one will start showing stress? And that is not going to be at low rpm.
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Old 4th August 2008, 19:55   #308
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Scaling on the two graphs is different, so the power graphs of the two motors in stock tune must not be compared visually.

But yes, the 1.3 JTD matches the 1.9 TDI very closely. So I am not sure how "there is no replacement for displacement applies here".
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Old 4th August 2008, 19:57   #309
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I beg to differ.
You're welcome to differ. I used to think along the same lines till I moved to large capacity engines. Experience has taught me otherwise, therefore I will stick to what I have learnt with no prejudice to your views.
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Old 4th August 2008, 19:59   #310
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Dzire Dimensions in mm (LxWXH): 4160x1690x1530.
Linea Dimensions in mm (LxWxH): 4560x1730x1494.
GP Dimensions in mm (LxWxH): 4030x1687x1490.

Dzire Wheelbase (in mm): 2390mm
Linea Wheelbase (in mm): 2600mm
GP Wheelbase (in mm): 2510mm

If Linea base petrol is priced at Dzire VDi level then how and where will Fiat position the Grande Punto that is more spacious then the Dzire?! IMO, the top end GP MJD will easily fall into Dzire ZDi price point.

EDIT: Can there be so much of difference in dimensions between the GP and Linea or is something wrong somewhere?
No, I think this is fine as per the Linea released in Europe. The Linea dimensions mentioned by you are in the D segment league, in Indian market terms. It is a very intriguing thought that a car with such dimensions can be priced in the C segment league. All this has added to the mystery and , at least for me, it is the most expected launch of the year. Well, just another month and a half , I guess. (In fact, Fiat has been running an ad campaign these days, where all the cars are mentioned - Bravo,Linea,500etc..Not sure, i see the Linea clearly though..
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Old 4th August 2008, 19:59   #311
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Originally Posted by opendro View Post
I beg to differ. If you had said that the final torqe and power do not matter, I would have agreed. If you say that the graph do not matter, I will not agree. Let's say, at 1100 rpm on an upward slope, if they produce the same torque, which means same power (= torque * rpm / 5252), it is going to pull the same. That is true at any rpm, any speed.

The only difference would be when each one will start showing stress? And that is not going to be at low rpm.
You are assuming that the kerb weights of both the cars are the same.
Also, is this 90 bhp engine mated to Linea or Punto? Weights really make a
lot of difference.
Again, is the gearing of Linea going to be what is shown in the pic there? If Fiat decides to gear it up for FE, as they did for Palio MJD, all this will not make any sense.

I would rather agree with Steeroid here. Drive both the cars and judge for yourself.
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Old 4th August 2008, 20:03   #312
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Quote:
Originally Posted by opendro View Post
I beg to differ. If you had said that the final torqe and power do not matter, I would have agreed.
I have driven the Octy and its a effortless car to drive around in the city. I haven't driven the Linea so i cannot comment on it. However i have read the reviews of Linea and from what i have read they mentioned a noticeable lag at lower revs.

So i would assume Steeroid might be right here.

Anyway, i guess we are discussing too much theory about a car which aint launched yet - let them bring it and we will see how it fares.
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Old 4th August 2008, 20:16   #313
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On paper the MJD has more torque and power than the 3.0 litre DI engine in Tata 407... got the drift?
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Old 4th August 2008, 21:29   #314
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This may be , but I understand that there are 4 determinants of straight line performance:

1. Weight
2. Gearing (how it matches the engine power curve)
3. *Area* under the power curve
4. Aerodynamics (but we can ignore this for low speeds)

Assuming all else being comparable between two vehicles, it is #3 that would determine performance. If there is a 1.3 litre engine that has the same area under the power curve *till a given (common) RPM* as (say) the 3.0 DI, then what could be the reason(s) that the 3.0 DI would outstrip the 1.3?

I think the reason that the 3.0 DI would seem more powerful that the 1.3 would be

1. One made the mistake of comparing the peak torque and power figures between the two engines, or at specific RPMs, and not the area under their respective power curves
2. Gearing --> One vehicle was much lower geared than the other
3. Part throttle values --> All power and torque curves depict numbers at full throttle. I am yet to see a power/torque curve at (say) 20% throttle. So the 3.0 DI engine might have a much better power curve than the 1.3 at 20% throttle.

Would appreciate comments on this.
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Old 4th August 2008, 22:22   #315
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Vipul, a good area again translates to a steeper power graph in earlier revs. For example, for the Tata 407, torque is 160Nm at 2200 rpm, whereas 1.3 JTD produce 135Nm. We don't yet know what were the torque figures at 1000, 1100, 1200, ... 2000, 2100. I have not driven Tata 407 to guess. If these values were more or less same as 1.3 JTD, I bet it would have the same power delivery along the rpms, i.e. almost equal area as you talked about. And they would have same pulling power at a given rpm. When I say "the same pulling power", I'm talking in terms of what the engine could do at that rpm.

Depending on the weight and type of vehicle, gears are designed. A job of a gear is to translate engines torque into different torques. For instance 160Nm torque at 2200rpm could be increased to, let's say, 1500Nm by reducing the rpm to say, 150rpm (just arbitrary figures) by using toothed wheels of different diameters. When the gears are designed to produce more final torque on the wheels, it can pull more load but cannot run as fast as those designed to produce lesser final torque.

So, my final take is that if the torque curve is same, it will have same power curve and same area under torque. This translates to same capability provided gears ratios are same. Assuming gears are more or less in the same ratios, which one will be quicker will depend on the load/weight of the vehicle.

I'm done here.

Last edited by opendro : 4th August 2008 at 22:25.
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