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Old 17th February 2017, 10:32   #16
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Default Re: Diesel drops to merely 27% of total car sales in India

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Originally Posted by sandeepmdas View Post
One more trivial but irritating problem that has no relation with the math. If you buy a petrol vehicle - not necessarily expensive - that is physically bigger than hatcbacks it is real pain to maneuver it inside the fuel stations where petrol and diesel are sold separately as you'll find yourself battling with numerous two-wheelers just to reach the bunk. I am coming from a diesel-only background and I found it very annoying when I drove a Honda City for refueling last month.

Contrary to this, refueling my diesels in the same station is just a quick in-and-out job since I don't have to negotiate with impatient 2-wheelers in the diesel bunk.
Situation is as bad in Diesel too, with numerous rickety diesel autos lining up, spewing up black smoke on your windscreen from their NA diesel engines. In NCR atleast, 2-wheelers have got a separate line altogether.
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Old 17th February 2017, 16:09   #17
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Default Re: Diesel drops to merely 27% of total car sales in India

Almost 2 years back when I was looking for a premium hatchback, I hadnt differentiated between petrol and diesel, but then I got to know that if I want fun I will have to go for the diesel variants. I didnt consider Polo GT TSI as it was an auto and was out of my budget as well, barring which all the cars had just adequate performance in their petrol variants. Yes the Swift 1.2 is exciting to drive but I didnt want a Swift. So, I went for diesel, not for FE alone, but primarily for more fun and aptly ended up buying Punto Evo Sports. Big displacement engines arent preferred due to the tax rules and turbo petrols are still at a nascent stage in India and not many manufacturers offer it in their Indian market portfolio.

The major shift seen in this pattern has to do with the rising price difference between the similar diesel and petrol trims and general anxiety wrt diesel's future that started with the Delhi/NCR ban on 2.0 L+ diesels. Also, nowadays cars are loaded up to the brim with different features which allures more to a common man rather than the engine punch.
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Old 17th February 2017, 16:29   #18
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Default Re: Diesel drops to merely 27% of total car sales in India

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Originally Posted by avira_tk View Post
There is no tilt towards diesel, anyone not buying an entry level car, isn't looking at petrol, except those people who buy a car for status reasons. The Honda city is that rare exception in the mass market where the petrol makes sense even if running it a little on the higher side. There is a reason rich folks buy diesel, the math is in favour.
Gross over-generalisation. People buy petrols when there's a high performance petrol available and if they like a refined car and not a tractor.
My bud bought the 320i even though the 320d was the same rate. So did people buying A6 2L tfsi, S4, c63, the V6 petrol e350 etc etc
Diesel is a bad fuel and the only reason they were selling in the high end market was because of a lack of a good petrol option for the most part. Yes there will be people happy with a 3L V6 in a 1cr car, but there are many more who'd want a V8 petrol instead.
Look at the recent launches and you'll see good petrols being introduced in every segement.

Just ask yourself this, if I'm buying a 60L car, I really wouldn't be bothered if it costs me 200 instead of 100 in fuel costs. The added fun, refinement, and power delivery is worth it.
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Old 18th February 2017, 10:23   #19
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Default Re: Diesel drops to merely 27% of total car sales in India

Good. Let Euro/BS VI come it will drop further since making a Diesel engine comply with Euro-VI is far more expensive that making a Petrol engine do the same. So the price differential will further increase. We had gone crazy with ultra cheap Diesel due to subsidies.
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Old 18th February 2017, 10:33   #20
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Default Re: Diesel drops to merely 27% of total car sales in India

This is surely a welcome change. This encourages me more to act on that Petrol Automatic Sedan, which I have had in mind for quite some time now! Pray we see again the likes of the Original 1.5 Vtec and the 1.6 ROCAM (of which I have extremely fond memories).
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Old 18th February 2017, 11:14   #21
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Default Re: Diesel drops to merely 27% of total car sales in India

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Originally Posted by smartcat View Post
Figo 1.2 petrol vs Figo 1.5 diesel
i20 1.2 petrol vs i20 1.4 diesel
Add Swift to the list. Diesel is not much larger motor, but significantly better specially on highways.

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Originally Posted by The Brutailer View Post
Diesel engines were famous for low end torque. Thanks to technological advancement, turbo petrols are much better alternative to diesels making high torque at lower rpms.

Lower sales of diesels will do 2 things :
1. Better petrol engines in mainstream cars.

And no matter if it's a Safari or a BMW, underneath they all still sound like a Matador.
Considering the traffic density coupled with non existent discipline, we need bottom end torque more than ever before. NA petrols dont have it, specially the smaller ones which constitute of majority market share as far as sales are factored. Purchase cost of Turbo petrols ?

Hyundai diesels are quite refined IMO. Have owned one for 18 months.

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Originally Posted by sandeepmohan View Post
Hmm...I find this trend surprising. I can't see the effects of so called deregulation when I visit the gas station. Petrol prices seem to be going higher and they keep the gap between the two fuels almost the same. Rs. 15 in my city and that is quite a bit.

As another FM has already said, I feel the shift is more due to the fear of government action, its baseless decisions on diesel fueled vehicles.

Truth be told, almost every diesel car on sale today is a better than their petrol variant.

On a recent road trip covering 850km, my buddy's Vento 1.6l Tdi used up just one tankful of gas. Had I taken my T Jet, I would have needed close to two full tanks of fuel. I drove the Vento and loved it. ... I get almost double the range of an equivalent petrol plus I don't have to go easy on the gas pedal to achieve that. Off course, at the end of the day, it is down to what your heart desires and that for me is still a petrol engine.

It is left to be seen if this trend continues.
+1. Agree with you wholeheartedly. The price gap between diesel and petrol is getting wider again. The fuel pricing (including the indirect taxation) never ceases to amaze me in an unpleasant way.

Another aspect is diesel using less fuel : Isn't that advantageous ? A diesel over 2,00,000 kms. would be using less amount of fuel than petrol. Take it to the crude import + refining + transportation of refined fuel and wont there be advantages ? Could be far fetched, dont know just curious.

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Originally Posted by sgiitk View Post
So the price differential will further increase. We had gone crazy with ultra cheap Diesel due to subsidies.
Lets go back a decade and half. Government introduced Euro-I and Euro-II emission norms. Were they not aware of better fuel requirement ? If this is all about environment and well being of citizens, the better fuel should have been here along with Euro-V/VI vehicles.
Next, what was logic behind the 1.5 Ltr. diesel/1.2 Ltr. petrol compact car excise relaxation ?
My point is : Govt. really is not sure about pricing of fuels which in my view aren't deregulated completely. And they have a rather twisted road map when it comes to auto industry and transport.



This shift in my view is more out of fear like the essentially baseless and a bit vicious move to ban diesels above 2.0 ltr. capacity and the de-registration of old diesel cars. Both petrol and diesel pollute in one way or the other. A turbo petrol vs turbo diesel purchase cost ? Efficiency ?

Whats overall more energy efficient, a 16 kmpl petrol car consuming 6.2L/100 kms. or a 19 kmpl diesel car consuming 5.2L/100 kms. ?

I am not promoting diesels, but diesels have their own set of advantages, mainly in overall efficiency. Did 600 kms. drive to Rajkot and back on 16th. My Swift petrol gave 16.5 kmpl tankful to tankful method (I usually dont prefer MID information for FE). Cousin's Swift VDi gave 21 kmpl. more or less similar driving, cruising speed for both on highway : 90-110 kmph. His car used around 7 litres less fuel than my petrol. 2012 Innova with us gave 12.9 kmpl while driven in same cruising speed.

Last edited by aaggoswami : 18th February 2017 at 11:24.
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Old 18th February 2017, 12:32   #22
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Default Re: Diesel drops to merely 27% of total car sales in India

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Originally Posted by aaggoswami View Post
Considering the traffic density coupled with non existent discipline, we need bottom end torque more than ever before. NA petrols dont have it, specially the smaller ones which constitute of majority market share as far as sales are factored.
Yeah but most of them have turbo lag which affects drivability in city traffic anyway.

For eg : S Cross 1.6. Great car but the turbo lag makes it useless in city driving.
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Old 18th February 2017, 13:22   #23
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Default Re: Diesel drops to merely 27% of total car sales in India

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Originally Posted by The Brutailer View Post
For eg : S Cross 1.6. Great car but the turbo lag makes it useless in city driving.
Well, not really, if you consider driving like 20-30 Kmph or even less within the city; the torque is super efficient to keep the car rolling in that speed...with 5 adults on board!! Just release the clutch & you might even have to brake, so monstrous is the torque.

It is when the instant acceleration required when turbo lag comes into picture, but then, those happen in suburbs & one has to learn to drive a little bit different from driving a petrol car. Say, folks who're lazy to shift down/up gears & rely mostly with gas pedal when accelerating after slowing down.

Personally, I learned to shift down & up (I love this) in accordance to the speed of the vehicle, so it wasn't that difficult.
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Old 18th February 2017, 15:26   #24
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Default Re: Diesel drops to merely 27% of total car sales in India

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Originally Posted by aaggoswami View Post
what was logic behind the 1.5 Ltr. diesel/1.2 Ltr. petrol compact car excise relaxation ?

This shift in my view is more out of fear like the essentially baseless and a bit vicious move to ban diesels above 2.0 ltr. capacity and the de-registration of old diesel cars.
Amen to that! The excise regulation is one thing I couldn't get my head around. This skews the market towards diesels. It shows on B2 and C1 segment cars, which is a significant contributor to the monthly sales. You get better driveable, more efficient diesels (Figo twins, Jazz, i20, Amaze, Polo, Ameo, Liva, Micro, Punto) compared to their commuter petrol engines. Notable exceptions being Toyota Etios, Tata Zest/Bolt and XCent. I suppose even XCent will get the 1.2L engine in the upcoming facelift. If you want better driveable petrol, you have to look at the C2 segment, which is a different price band not everyone is interested in.

Turbo petrols are almost non-existent in this segment. Please don't quote Polo TSI, it sells at a hefty premium over the Polo TDi. It still remains to be seen where Baleno 1.0 Boosterjet will fit in. VW is the only manufacturer who has a turbo petrol mill up their sleeve (the 1.0 TSI) that might be rolled into the Polo and Ameo.

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Originally Posted by itwasntme View Post
Also it's only a matter of time that diesels are curtailed by either the judiciary and/or the executive.
But where are the steps or regulations towards it? The excise % is one such major factor affecting that. Petrols are capped at 1200 cc and diesels are capped at 1500 cc. The Delhi 'bans' don't count as steps, rather knee jerk reactions as a result of whims and fancies than acting based on a vision/roadmap. Even from that the government is only looking at extracting more money, by means of green cess.

Toyota in Europe has hybrids across the range Yaris, Auris, Rav4, C-HR and lastly Prius. There's only one of them (Camry) in India, retailing at 40L.

I'd say we are looking at a minimum of 2035 to keep diesel completely off the road. Even that is quick. For this the latest you can buy a diesel is 2020 paying 15 year life tax. When I read news like this (2017 Honda Activa 125 gets BS IV compliant engine and AHO), I hardly feel encouraged that's going to happen.


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Paris, Madrid, Athens and Mexico City will ban the most polluting cars and vans by 2025 to tackle air pollution
Among these I've seen Paris in 2014, it was flooded with charging points even back then. Not to forget, one of the best metro system in terms of connectivity. We hardly have anyone motivated to buy an electric vehicle. Let's not even talk about metro, we are half a century behind at it as a nation.
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Old 19th February 2017, 11:43   #25
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Default Re: Diesel drops to merely 27% of total car sales in India

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Among these I've seen Paris in 2014, it was flooded with charging points even back then. Not to forget, one of the best metro system in terms of connectivity. We hardly have anyone motivated to buy an electric vehicle. Let's not even talk about metro, we are half a century behind at it as a nation.
Not in Delhi. Delhi metro is on par with the Paris one in terms of network and is superior in terms of coaches and facilities. Paris metro has a network of 214 kms and Delhi has 213 but Delhi is going to cross 300 kms this year with the completion of phase 3.

Last edited by Lobogris : 19th February 2017 at 11:46.
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Old 20th February 2017, 16:39   #26
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Default Re: Diesel drops to merely 27% of total car sales in India

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Originally Posted by Lobogris View Post
Not in Delhi. Delhi metro is on par with the Paris one in terms of network and is superior in terms of coaches and facilities. Paris metro has a network of 214 kms and Delhi has 213 but Delhi is going to cross 300 kms this year with the completion of phase 3.
Paris is a much more compact city and the Metro serves only the city itself, extending only a little into the greater Paris area. So though it's "only" 214km, it includes 303 stations (Delhi Metro has 160) of which 245 are within Paris proper (about 87 sq km). So you don't have to walk more than 10 minutes from anywhere to reach the nearest Metro station (and in the more central areas there are multiple stations within a 5 minute walk). Delhi's Metro is simply not comparable to that. It is more similar to Paris's RER network, whose trains have stops further apart but go much longer distances. The RER network covers 587 km and has 257 stations (including 33 in Paris itself).

Last edited by rsidd : 20th February 2017 at 16:49. Reason: Edited to correct the Paris metro numbers
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Old 20th February 2017, 18:35   #27
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Default Re: Diesel drops to merely 27% of total car sales in India

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Gross over-generalisation. People buy petrols when there's a high performance petrol available and if they like a refined car and not a tractor.
My bud bought the 320i even though the 320d was the same rate. So did people buying A6 2L tfsi, S4, c63, the V6 petrol e350 etc etc
Diesel is a bad fuel and the only reason they were selling in the high end market was because of a lack of a good petrol option for the most part. Yes there will be people happy with a 3L V6 in a 1cr car, but there are many more who'd want a V8 petrol instead.
Look at the recent launches and you'll see good petrols being introduced in every segement.

Just ask yourself this, if I'm buying a 60L car, I really wouldn't be bothered if it costs me 200 instead of 100 in fuel costs. The added fun, refinement, and power delivery is worth it.
People don't buy the petrol version when it's available in a high performance version, why do you think none of the premium cars offer a decent petrol option? None of the cars mentioned sold in significant numbers how many big displacement petrol engine cars do you see on a regular basis? 6 cylinder diesels are the premium market sweet spot, great refinement with great economy, that tractor jibe has been irrelevant since common rail became mainstream. There aren't many more looking for a v8 petrol, the numbers tell the whole story.

Recent launches in the market are the 20i series from BMW which were quickly disposed off at discounts, the 1.4tsi for the A4 which will be smoked by a Vento (diesel ) and thankfully a great engine in a practical but odd looking car the 3GT 330i. The 20i petrol BMWs were limited imports, Mercedes is launching the E class in the 200 petrol hardly a choice for refinement, stressed motors are certainly out of place in a luxury car.

I am glad you asked this question, too bad you answered it also. Engine refinement is given, power, not so much for the choices we have and fun is subjective, torque is addictive. People who have upwards of 60 lakhs to spend on a car got there specifically because they care about their money, unless daddy-did-it or they are selling the family silver. I have a friend from school whose father is on his 5th Mercedes, possibly 6th , an S class (bought new), all those cars were diesel. Say what you will, anyone who buys an S certainly knows how to handle money. Diesels run on normal fuel without issues, see GTO's 530d ownership thread, a full fat exec express gives a mileage of 16, the economy on a 535i is around 5kmpl, the rich aren't stupid to pay 300% markup along with frightening depreciation. The proof is in the pudding, the F10 didn't get a petrol when it was facelifted.

The new emission norms will be putting the cart before the horse, stricter norms will bring in newer engines while fuel quality, the crucial element of the plan, is still not guaranteed.
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