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Old 19th March 2017, 14:23   #16
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Default Re: The predicament of 900,000 unsold BS-III vehicles

This is a classic case of some manufacturers being two clever by half, and no leeway should be given to them. BS4 norms were introduced in the metro cities in April 2010, and were scheduled to go national by April 2015. They have already been delayed by 2 years (and by 12 years compared to their introduction in Europe). Manufacturers have had ample time to plan and must not be allowed to get away with playing with the lives of Indians by building huge inventories before the change over and continuing to register these junk vehicles after April 1.
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Old 19th March 2017, 15:35   #17
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Default Re: The predicament of 900,000 unsold BS-III vehicles

Screw them. This lobby thing is always a mess. We need a better environment. They can do whatever they want, but should not be allowed to sell these vehicles.

Last edited by GTO : 19th March 2017 at 23:30. Reason: No SMS language on Team-BHP please
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Old 19th March 2017, 18:28   #18
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Default Re: The predicament of 900,000 unsold BS-III vehicles

The quote that I have used in my opening post was posted in 2010. Even then, Bhpians were wondering why BS3 cars were being allowed to be sold in Mumbai.

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...ed-mumbai.html (New BS-3 cars still being registered in Mumbai?)

Every stakeholder was, at least a few years before 2010, aware that BS4 is here to stay and that at some point they have to make a departure from BS3 norms. But our system being what it is, manufacturers went on producing environmentally outdated engines and successive governments kept on playing ostrich.

I wonder where would we be without courts, tribunals and to an extent activists. Left to itself, no government would dare to question the corporates. They are not fools to slay ducks that give them golden eggs.

Unless the mainstream media picks up on their malafide intentions, they would not even bother to question the manufacturers.

But for some sharp reporter at TOI, this major scam too would have been kept under the carpet. That not many newspapers/news channels have bothered to carry this news is proof enough of how secretive both sides have been about the matter.

I am almost certain that if the judiciary doesn't come out with strict and specific instructions to scrap all nine lakh engines, the manufacturers will invariably find ways to hoodwink the rule of law.

The ruling establishment will postpone the deadline and conveniently call it an ease of business decision, taken in the larger interest of preserving India's reputation as an automobile manufacturing hub, bla bla bla.

The issue is slated to be heard by the Hon Supreme Court tomorrow. Let us see what transpires there.
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Old 20th March 2017, 00:53   #19
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Default Re: The predicament of 900,000 unsold BS-III vehicles

Think about this for a second. Mercedes and Audi have to downgrade their bs6 (eu6) engines to bs4 because of our fuel. And here we have bs3. Sigh.
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Old 20th March 2017, 01:34   #20
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In context to H_dogg72 post about mercedes and audi downgrading bs6 vehicles to bs4 because of fuel quality available in India. Is there any way of upgrading these 9lakh bs3 vehicle bs4 norms so that they can sold in market??
I request mods to put me up to the right thread if mine next question is out of topic.
What is major difference in bs3 and bs4 vehicles technology, mean by engine or exhaust system?? What are major changes?
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Old 20th March 2017, 08:20   #21
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Default Re: The predicament of 900,000 unsold BS-III vehicles

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hayek View Post
This is a classic case of some manufacturers being two clever by half, and no leeway should be given to them. BS4 norms were introduced in the metro cities in April 2010, and were scheduled to go national by April 2015. They have already been delayed by 2 years (and by 12 years compared to their introduction in Europe). Manufacturers have had ample time to plan and must not be allowed to get away with playing with the lives of Indians by building huge inventories before the change over and continuing to register these junk vehicles after April 1.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 02ayushgupta View Post
In context to H_dogg72 post about mercedes and audi downgrading bs6 vehicles to bs4 because of fuel quality available in India. Is there any way of upgrading these 9lakh bs3 vehicle bs4 norms so that they can sold in market??
I request mods to put me up to the right thread if mine next question is out of topic.
What is major difference in bs3 and bs4 vehicles technology, mean by engine or exhaust system?? What are major changes?
I think we need to understand the drivers at a firm wide level, and we need to consider the right baseline before fuming at the companies for being two clever by half, instead I would assess it more as "Fear Of Missing Out" ! Such changes cannot be fine-tuned that easily with no one willing to lose share by bringing in the higher priced variant in a nation as price sensitive as ours.

9 lakh is a big number till you look at what it implies on a monthly sale basis. Please see this table adapted from ET's table:
Name:  restated.jpg
Views: 5349
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Having 2.5/16 days of BS3 products is no crime. It is clear the passenger vehicle manufacturers took the deadline seriously and in fact should be rewarded for good compliance with the govt's agenda, compared to their CV brethren.

I'm sure reading this, at max, Hayek bhai would be willing to be a bit more lenient to at least passenger vehicle / two wheeler manufacturers!

Again, some of this stock might be disproportionately contributed by a few manufacturers (again, separating dud models from mfrs overproducing the BS3 models) so only then can someone truly single out the bad apples.

IMHO, most manufacturers werent being *that* cavalier with their interpretation of the law. Let's not pronounce guilty until proven so.

My take? The mfr should be fined for over-producing stocks post say January, but the inventory of dud products should definitely not be fined. I'm sure this is something easily auditable and a clear framework can be made out if all the data is available.

IMHO in all such cases, the government should up front declare the penalties / incentive and do it in a fashion to ensure proactive compliance than leave the matter to legal interpretation later.

PS: Here's something I find ironic - that ET article had been read only TWO times before I opened it (thrice). Considering the OP read it before posting the link, that means this thread had almost 19 replies with only one having read the article. So much outrage, so little reading. Again, not passing a comment on any one person, but just suggesting that as hand-selected members of India's premier automotive forum, we should be a bit more thoughtful. Let's continue to hold ourselves to the standards we qualified to gain entry. Have a good day folks!

Last edited by phamilyman : 20th March 2017 at 08:26.
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Old 20th March 2017, 13:03   #22
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Default Re: The predicament of 900,000 unsold BS-III vehicles

It is highly unlikely that the manufacturers will decide to junk this whole inventory. Possibly, it will find a loop hole and off load them into B, C class cities/towns.

Secondly, I doubt NGT has serious clout. They are already getting a reputation of passing half-baked orders/judgements without working out all the finer details. There will be hot debates, mud slinging, and when the dust settles down, quietly manufacturers will move this stock out, possibly offering some discounts/freebies which will make the customers lap it up eagerly.

I seriously doubt whether a significant percentage of population really understand the differences of BS3, BS4, etc and hence may not take them very seriously. Just to check this, I casually asked many of my colleagues who are owning vehicles from the last many years, what they know about BS3, BS4 etc and what difference it makes - Very few of them knew the differences (other than some pollution control is there). To be honest, I also didn't know and I recently googled about it.


This is a crucial time for manufacturers. They can DEFINITELY take the easy way out and push the whole thing under the carpet. But sooner or later it will come back and bite them (there are many many examples of this, recent being VW fiasco)

The sad reality is that most still believe that manufacturers needs to be forced to be made complaint - all these hunting for loopholes in these orders (pollution, safety norms, etc. etc) enforce this belief.

Manufacturers in the better interest of the longevity of their own industry,must change this perception and should make efforts to educate the masses:

About pollution, norms, and how they can control/reduce it. They should make case studies of why, how the situation has gone out of control in Delhi (smog, pollution, et. all) and how they can prevent it happening in other cities.

About safety and precautions - which includes ABS/ airbags, etc.
and many more.

These will, in my opinion, improve the overall image of the Industry and also all these arm-twisting guidelines and rules needn't be brought out. People will learn to regulate themselves.

Whether this will happen in the immediate future , Not sure - But one thing is certain - The voices for regulations, standards , etc is going to go up only. So isn't it better to accept them gracefully than perpetually look for loop holes ?

Last edited by haria : 20th March 2017 at 13:15.
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Old 20th March 2017, 13:41   #23
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Default Re: The predicament of 900,000 unsold BS-III vehicles

My question is driven by pure greed and selfishness, please forgive me for that.

Is there any way we could still get one of them registered in a T2 or T3 city ? If the stock is with the dealer's, which I doubt, they surely will be offering heavy discount. Or has all deadlines crossed for the purchase of these vehicles ?
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Old 20th March 2017, 15:14   #24
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Default Re: The predicament of 900,000 unsold BS-III vehicles

9Lakh vehicles!!
What were they doing?

The Govt for it's part has given sufficient time for companies to comply.
Why were they still producing the BS3 models till recently and piling such a enormous inventory?
The authorities should really take a hard stand here, else any such directives in future will meet the same farce.

By the way, as a last solution, cant they register off these vehicles in the name of Dealership itself and transfer the ownership once they are sold (Like used vehicles)?

Last edited by abhishek46 : 20th March 2017 at 15:15. Reason: spellings
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Old 21st March 2017, 07:45   #25
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Default Re: The predicament of 900,000 unsold BS-III vehicles

Quote:
Originally Posted by phamilyman View Post
"Fear Of Missing Out" ! Such changes cannot be fine-tuned that easily with no one willing to lose share by bringing in the higher priced variant in a nation as price sensitive as ours.
That is a convincing argument. We have always been a market riled by the classic 'Who will bell the cat' syndrome.

Quote:
(again, separating dud models from mfrs overproducing the BS3 models)
The exact stock of dud models would provide an insight into the average Indian consumer's buying preferences. The dud vehicles, manufactured anytime between 2010-2017 could have been shown as surplus stocks.

OT: I have always wondered about the fate of unsold cars, specially the dud ones. Are they junked/recycled like unsold newspapers?

Quote:
My take? The mfr should be fined for over-producing stocks post say January
That is a very sensible and practical solution.

Quote:
PS: Here's something I find ironic - that ET article had been read only TWO times before I opened it (thrice). Considering the OP read it before posting the link, that means this thread had almost 19 replies with only one having read the article. So much outrage, so little reading. Again, not passing a comment on any one person, but just suggesting that as hand-selected members of India's premier automotive forum, we should be a bit more thoughtful. Let's continue to hold ourselves to the standards we qualified to gain entry. Have a good day folks!
Err, you seem to have got your facts wrong in this instance. The number you referred to is the number of times the particular article has been read on one particular day and not the number of total reads.

Yesterday evening, the total number of reads was 77; today at around 7 in the morning the number was 3 - meaning thereby that I was the 77th and 3rd visitor to that url yesterday and today respectively. So, your suggestion that Bhpians have been commenting on the issue without actually reading about it may not pass muster .

Why did no one comment on that unjustified aspersion then? Well, that could perhaps be answered in a separate thread titled Revealed -The predicament of 18 mysterious replies.
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Old 21st March 2017, 12:02   #26
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Default Re: The predicament of 900,000 unsold BS-III vehicles

Sorry if I am ignorant. But does this mean that I will be unable to re-register My 2001 Maruti 800 DX 5 Speed in 2021 when the car have to go for testing again?
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Old 21st March 2017, 13:58   #27
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Default Re: The predicament of 900,000 unsold BS-III vehicles

Quote:
Originally Posted by anand.shankar View Post
Is there any way we could still get one of them registered in a T2 or T3 city ? If the stock is with the dealer's, which I doubt, they surely will be offering heavy discount. Or has all deadlines crossed for the purchase of these vehicles ?
Here is a quote from the Motorcycles section that may bring a smile on your face, in case you are looking to buy a two wheeler.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NaveenKBorra View Post
Hi Everyone,
I read an article that Kawasaki is now offering huge discounts ( 1 to 1.5 L ) on Er6n, Z250 and N650 Bikes

Honda is also offering upto 1L off on CBR 650. Most of this is to clear the stocks to meet the BS iV norms which will be effective from Apr 1 2017.

I still believe lot of other manufacturers / models (especially the higher end models) will have substantial old stock left. for eg, Hyosung models, Honda CBR 250 R, to name a few
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Old 21st March 2017, 14:50   #28
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Default Re: The predicament of 900,000 unsold BS-III vehicles

As per TOI, The ban is ONLY on manufacturing of the BS-III engines, not on selling the BS-III engines. The transistion is same as the BS-II to BS-III engine during 2001

Extract from the source:
Putting all uncertainties to rest over the registration of BS-III vehicles after April 1, the road transport ministry has said only manufacturing of such vehicles are not allowed after March end. The inventory of old (manufactured) vehicles, however, "needs to be protected and registered".


Source: http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/i...w/57526453.cms

Am wondering how TOI can be so misleading with their news. The 8-Mar-2017 news says, that the ban is only on manufacturing and the 16-Mar-2017 (from the original post from dailydriver) says, the confusion prevails

Last edited by PetroTurbo : 21st March 2017 at 14:54. Reason: Added additional info for clarity
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Old 21st March 2017, 16:38   #29
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Default Re: The predicament of 900,000 unsold BS-III vehicles

Thanks PetroTurbo for the information and the link.

Matters are still a little confusing. I looked in vain for the relevant orders in the Ministry of Road Transport and Highways website. Could someone please mine the latest notification and post it here so that there is some clarity.

My search however got me this interesting press release. Reading through this will certainly surprise and confuse you, but what is a Government order without some ambiguity!

Quote:
Press Information Bureau
Government of India
Ministry of Road Transport & Highways
19-August-2015 16:26 IST
Notification issued for introduction of BS IV compliant four wheel motor vehicle


The Ministry of Road Transport & Highways today issued a notification for publication that only Bharat Stage IV (BS-IV) compliant four wheeler vehicles will be manufactured on and from 1st October 2015 in States of Jammu and Kashmir (except Districts of Leh and Kargil), Punjab, Haryana, Himachal Pradesh, Uttarakhand, and districts of Hanumangarh and Sri Ganganagar in the State of Rajasthan and in the districts of Saharanpur, Muzaffarnagar, Bijnaur, Jyotiba Phule Nagar, Rampur, Muradabad, Aligarh, Badaun, Bareilly, Mathura, Mahamayanagar, Etah, Agra, Firozabad, Etawah, Mainpuri, Pilibhit, Shamli, Sambhal, Farrukabad, Kannauj, Auriya and Kasganj in the State of Uttar Pradesh and from 1st April, 2016 in the States of Goa, Kerala, Karnataka, Telangana, Odisha and the Union territories of Daman and Diu, Dadra and Nagar Haveli and Andaman and Nicobar Islands, districts of Mumbai, Thane and Pune in the State of Maharashtra and districts of Surat, Valsad, Dangs and Tapi in the State of Gujarat and from 1st April, 2017 the Mass Emission Standards for Bharat Stage IV shall come into force all over the country.

BS IV grade fuel has already been made available in the NCR and the cities of Mumbai, Kolkatta, Chennai, Ahmadabad, Bangalore, Hyderabad including Secunderabad, Kanpur, Pune, Surat, Agra, Lucknow and Sholapur with effect from 1st April, 2010 and 20 additional cities were added from October, 2014 and 30 more cities from 1st April, 2015 were added.

With this only those newly manufactured four-wheeled vehicles, which are complaint with the BS-IV standards will be allowed to registered and move on roads with effect from the notified dates in the notified areas. This has been made possible due to the supply of BS-IV complaint petroleum fuels in these areas.

These specifications will further reduce the emissions of Carbon Mono-oxide(CO), Hydrocarbon (HC), Oxides of Nitrogen (NOx) and Sulphur (SOx)which are much less in BS-IV fuel as compared to BS III fuel.
Source:http://pib.nic.in/newsite/PrintRelea...x?relid=126171

PS: All emphasis are mine.
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Old 21st March 2017, 20:01   #30
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Default Re: The predicament of 900,000 unsold BS-III vehicles

Quote:
Originally Posted by dailydriver View Post
But what is a Government order without some ambiguity!
Good one dailydriver

But, what I understand from the press release is that (highlighted below)
- Vehicles that are manufactured newly post the cut-off date, which are compliant with BS-IV can ONLY be registered
- Which means, that vehicles manufactured post the cut-off date, not compliant to BS-IV CAN NOT be registered
- Which also means, that vehicles manufactured prior to the cut-off date not compliant to BS-IV can also be registered

This ambiguity is maintained to bend it accordingly in future with an Annex or a guidance

Quote:
BS IV grade fuel has already been made available in the NCR and the cities of Mumbai, Kolkatta, Chennai, Ahmadabad, Bangalore, Hyderabad including Secunderabad, Kanpur, Pune, Surat, Agra, Lucknow and Sholapur with effect from 1st April, 2010 and 20 additional cities were added from October, 2014 and 30 more cities from 1st April, 2015 were added.

With this only those newly manufactured four-wheeled vehicles, which are complaint with the BS-IV standards will be allowed to registered and move on roads with effect from the notified dates in the notified areas. This has been made possible due to the supply of BS-IV complaint petroleum fuels in these areas.

Last edited by PetroTurbo : 21st March 2017 at 20:02. Reason: Alignment
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